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I put before you life and death. Choose life.

God doesn't wish anyone to perish, and anyone who believes in the Son will not perish but will have eternal life. This seems to suggest anyone who doesn't believe in the Son will perish and will not have eternal life.

Where?

No, I didn't misunderstand you. I wanted to see if you thought they were doubly dead. So I asked the question. :) I've been having a conversation in here with some who think let the dead bury their own dead means they will live forever. Your point about paul saying he was alive until the law...

Now fit the verse in question into your belief.

I think it revealed a flaw on BOTH sides. One side says death is ceasing to exist at all for everyone across the board. One side says death is eternal life (albeit a miserable eternal life) across the board for everyone. The verse I brought up shows a flaw in the dogmatism of BOTH sides.

You guys took it off the table by insisting death doesn't really mean death but instead means eternal life (of eternal torment). :LOL:

Because I don't believe humans are eternal beings. (Unless and until they are born again).

Because "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" sounds quite different than: "this is the second death." Maybe you are right and God expects us to make simple deductions. I don't know, you could be right about that. But this has gone beyond a simple deduction in my opinion.

Yes, I did get that you thought you were pointing out a possible flaw in the belief of annihilationism by repeating my own point and verse. No, I wasn't refuting annihilationism...I was refuting your insistence that annihilation necessarily and absolutely had to be obliterating everyone...

Yes, I am the one who brought up the verse. It was a...rebuttal to the statement about "obliterating everyone equally," which I said I didn't know about (wasn't sure about), because of the verse I gave. Do you understand that I was rebutting your statement of "obliterating everyone equally" by...

No...I don't have an issue with the word of God. And it does say the unholy trinity will be in torture forever and ever. As I said, from all I read, satan does seem to be an eternal being, so I can understand him being...indestructible, and therefore tortured forever. It does not however...

Oh...wow...this gave me a peek into your mind...:) The contextual support, in my opinion is right there along with the verse. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. NIV 12 Because lawlessness is...

Okay, you win. It only means: and those who survive physically dying are physically alive. It has nothing to do with anything else. It just means: those who don't die are alive. Kind of common sense that those who don't die are still alive, but okay. :p

I disagree. I think all babies that die go to heaven.

I disagree that I was born eternal. I think eternal life is in the Son and only in the Son. I will admit that satan is a strange case to me and he appears to have eternal life apart from God. I cannot explain it.

Why did He call them dead if they were living? A "living" walking dead person who was born with eternal life in them. That's amazing...:D

I completely and vociferously disagree that we are born eternal beings. And I have not seen any verses that suggest men are born with eternal life in them. I believe we don't have eternal life until we are born again. As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree. :) David...

If you will recall the conversation: A poster said: "obliterating everyone equally." I replied: I don't know about that. Then I brought up the "it will be more tolerable for" verse. Then you came into the conversation, and brought up the same verse I did. You haven't grasped what I was saying...

Ralph as in it made you barf? Or ralph as in pHart? :LOL: Can't help it if I sound like someone else. And I disagree. And now you say: obviously...:)