τίς in Titus 1:6
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I appreciate you asking, even if I don't have the chops in Greek to offer assistance. Many people have closed minds on the subject, as you have seen.
Joel 3:28, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.
To serve as an elder over a congregation, one must be a qualified biological, Christian, man. Reading more into Titus, it seems that this is less about a woman's inability to serve equal to or greater than a man, but more about the relationship of men and women in creation.
That being said, in the absence of a qualified Christian man, a godly woman should be able to be an elder to a congregation in unique, but rare, situations such as when there are no qualified spiritually mature Christian men available. While Paul doesn't directly say any of this, it seems inferred in the context of Titus, and τίς may possibly be an allusion to that.
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I think it's fair to assess that God has not yet poured out His spirit upon all
flesh; especially all Jewish flesh. I'm told that more than half the Jews at
home in Israel are hiloni. (secular)
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I think it's fair to assess that God has not yet poured out His spirit upon all
flesh; especially all Jewish flesh. I'm told that more than half the Jews at
home in Israel are hiloni. (secular)
_
Either women can be elders, or they cannot. Your ‘rare situation’ cannot be the justification for allowing something otherwise completely forbidden. Alternately, women may indeed be elders, regardless of the availability of men to serve in that role.
Eldership is conditional and there are prerequisites. One of those prerequisites is being a man. What constitutes a qualified man, among other things, is what follows:
Titus 1
5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
In the rare event there are no men available, who have the above characteristics and qualifications, then they aren't the kind of men Paul said a woman can't have authority over. Hence why it wouldn't be a violation for a woman to oversee unqualified men of these types.
So my questions for your claims are, where is a woman completely forbidden from being an elder? In the event my "rare situation" occurred, is it better to leave the congregation without an overseer of God's household?
Presbýtero (elder) refers to a mature man. Presbytera, the feminine form isn't found in the New Testament. The plural form presbyteras is found in 1 Timothy 5:2 where it refers to an aged woman but not a church official.
I am not saying that women are completely forbidden; rather, you are saying they are forbidden except in rare circumstances. I say that is inconsistent, and that you must either make allowances that the text doesn’t, or you must rethink your position.
That's accurate about what I believe the Bible says. What I see is Paul had a preference for male eldership and leadership in general. This isn't an all or nothing sort of thing to do, i.e., either allow for women eldership or don't allow it at all. I think it's conditional upon if there are qualified men available and if there aren't a qualified woman should step up.
Why were no instructions left on the appointment of women elders? Paul was careful to give details about the qualifications of elders. Doesn't the absence of anything about women elders seem a bit odd if women were to be included?
I think the original line of objection wasn't so much with the conclusion but drawing the conclusion from this particular text.
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According to Rom 12:4-8, Eph 4:11-213, & 1Cor 12:4-11, Christ's
administration is staffed with gifted folk. So if we're in a church lacking
gifted manpower, I'd have to say Christ has no interest in its operation
FAQ: What about Deborah in the Old Testament book of judges? Exactly how
was she an exception to the rule, if indeed she was?
REPLY: Things are quite a bit different now with Christ at the helm, i.e.
Christ's association with his church trumps Deborah's association with the
Jews. I do not recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an
excuse to defy Christ's edicts in matters pertaining to the governance of
Christian congregations.
And besides: Debbie was neither a priest nor a member of the Sanhedrin. Her
involvement in the Jews' religious affairs was limited to her position as a judge.
Temple business was none of her business: same goes for Miriam (Ex 15:20)
Asahiah (2Kgs 22:14) and Huldah (2Chron 24:32).
FAQ: What edicts?
REPLY: The apostle Paul's writings speak for Christ.
• 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of the Lord.
• 1Thess 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by The Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by The Lord Jesus.
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According to Rom 12:4-8, Eph 4:11-213, & 1Cor 12:4-11, Christ's
administration is staffed with gifted folk. So if we're in a church lacking
gifted manpower, I'd have to say Christ has no interest in its operation
FAQ: What about Deborah in the Old Testament book of judges? Exactly how
was she an exception to the rule, if indeed she was?
REPLY: Things are quite a bit different now with Christ at the helm, i.e.
Christ's association with his church trumps Deborah's association with the
Jews. I do not recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an
excuse to defy Christ's edicts in matters pertaining to the governance of
Christian congregations.
And besides: Debbie was neither a priest nor a member of the Sanhedrin. Her
involvement in the Jews' religious affairs was limited to her position as a judge.
Temple business was none of her business: same goes for Miriam (Ex 15:20)
Asahiah (2Kgs 22:14) and Huldah (2Chron 24:32).
FAQ: What edicts?
REPLY: The apostle Paul's writings speak for Christ.
• 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of the Lord.
• 1Thess 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by The Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by The Lord Jesus.
_
I see what Dino is saying... She's either qualified or not, if this scripture is used as a qualifer.
I will take a shot at it.
The verse says the man of one wife. We do know that all historical context, whether Jew, Roman, or Greek gave no equal rights whatsoever to women. Therefore it wouldn't say the woman of one husband, because in all cultures at that time having more than one husband is forbidden. It still is.
If we are all the same in Christ Jesus, why would over half of the sons of God be disqualified since it plainly says we are neither male or female in His eyes?
Would not an honorable woman be a christian who keeps her children under subjection to Christ? Since when is that responsibility only the man's? Timothy's mother & grandmother were honerable women as Jews since his father was a gentile. Also christian widows were to be honorable as a prerequisite to be taken care of by the church.
Only in the marriage relationship there is a difference by scripture, but there's no difference between myself & somebody else's wife. She never has to submit to me being a husband.
I personally see no difference, although some would say women don't have the capability. But we must NEVER leave the fact that the one who qualifies is the Head of the church.
If women weren't allowed, it seems we would see God's judgment for rebellion, wouldn't we? For judgment must first come to the House of God first.
I understand your position, though I disagree with it. Thanks for explaining.
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.• Rev 3:19 . . As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten
I think we have to accept the rather unpleasant reality that there are
churches Christ doesn't love; in point of fact: quite possibly has never loved.
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.• Rev 3:19 . . As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten
I think we have to accept the rather unpleasant reality that there are
churches Christ doesn't love; in point of fact: quite possibly has never loved.
_
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have made jest at your expense. Thanks for not getting angry.
Good point of discussion. God currently loves all individuals, but churches?
Revelation 3:16
“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”
Some churches should be avoided at all cost.