50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Truth7t7]

FreeGrace2 said:
Prove to me your unsubstantiated spiritualizing of Rev 20. I'm tired of your claims.

Your mind, right?


I explained it. You've made NO effort to prove me wrong.


Doesn't matter how many times you keep repeating your mantra, won't make it true. By spiritualizing Scripture only allows people to make up whatever they want. What you can't do is prove your spiritualization.


In fact, YOU have no facts that prove your wild spiritualization.


You've got a real nice "copy & paste" going on, huh. Seems kinda lazy to me though.

What you continue to fail to do is explain these phrases from Rev 20-
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

What is clear is that all these mentions of the 1,000 years is that they occur AFTER the trib martyrs are resurrected. And these 1,000 have an END, which is obviously after the first resurrection. So there you are. 1,000 LITERAL years of Christ reigning over earth and "ruling the nations with a rod of iron."

That ain't no spiritualized idea.

And what is clear is that you cannot explain how your 1,000 spiritualized years can be "ended" BEFORE Christ comes back to reign, as Rev 20 clearly shows.

Your Diversion Isn't Going To Work, Gods Words Are Very Clear Below

It's not going to change, when Jesus Christ returns, it's (The End) Read it real slow and pay close attention (Then Cometh The End)

There is no 1,000 year Kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below as you have falsely claimed

As stated you disregard the very clear teaching of scripture, that conflicts with your system of belief, a fact

You Will Closely Note, You Conveniently Disregard The Words (Then Cometh The End) To Maintain The False Teaching Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth, "After The Second Coming", Pretend Like The Words Are Non-Existent

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In our discussion, you picked a good chapter for the chapter is mostly about resurrections. Acts 24:15 does indeed mention two resurrections, but then, so does Revelation. So does Daniel 12:2 We have therefore established that there will be only TWO resurrections, one for the just, one for the unjust.
Do we agree on this point?

yes.

So this means that everyone who ever was, is, or ever will be resurrected must fit into one of these two catagories. Can we agree on this? Or will you now fudge and admit there are really three resurrections?

Nope. No fudging, unless there is frosting on top.

Everyone here could say that. It is not that different people don't look, it is that we read verses differently due to preconceived theories. If everyone read ever verse the same, we could all go home. Case in point: when you read first you think sequence: 1, 2, 3. When I read first I think chief or most honorable. When you read "first resurrection" you think one event, but I think first of Jesus, then of the church, then of the 144,000, then of the OT saints along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded. In other words, I think "every man in his own order."

Of course Jesus' resurrection is the very first one. And it is described clearly as "the firstfruits". Which distinguishes it from "those who belong to Him", which follows His resurrection (1 Cor 15:23). Here is the point: that verse clearly shows that all believers are in the same group. "those who belong to Him" means EVERY believer from Adam on.

When we get to Acts 24:15 and Rev 20 we see 2 resurrections. These are obviously just human resurrections. It would be silly to add Jesus into either one. His was unique. And described separately from other resurrections.

btw, I don't see the 2 witnesses as being given resurrection bodies when they were called back to heaven. No more than when both of them were FIRST called up to heaven apart from physical death. And where do you get the idea that the 144,000 were resurrected?

Now who you are out in the weeds. OTHER SCRIPTURES force a good student of the bible to consider them before making a doctrine from one scripture.

I haven't used "one" Scripture. I have quoted Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1-3, Rev 20.

1 Thes 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [this is a resurrection...but WHEN?

When Christ comes to earth at the Second Advent, and when the tribulation martyrs are resurrected. Rev 20

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [why would paul mention the Day of the Lord, just three verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS the rapture would trigger the DAY? ]

The "day of the Lord" includes the entire tribulation and the Millennial reign. Why wouldn't it? What else would be included?

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [When? At the same moment those who are alive are caught up.]
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [We don't get overtaken, we get raptured! One moment is the church age, and the next moment is is the Day of the Lord.]

You are just speculating.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

v.9 makes clear that believers will NOT experience the wrath of God on the world. But it DOES NOT SAY that believers will not be on the earth. That is speculation and eisegesis.

As I read this I see Paul telling us that his resurrection / rapture will come just before the Day of the Lord or just before wrath. (In Revelation at the 6th seal)

Paul is saying no such thing. 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves otherwise. That "the coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered together with Him" occur at the same time. This is the Second Advent.

Therefore, connecting the dots, this resurrection of the Dead in Christ cannot come at the end as you suppose.

Trib martyrs are the "dead in Christ". Of course it occurs at the end of the trib.

Post too long to submit. Part 2 to follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

lamad said:

Rev. 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

As I read this, I see they are in heaven.

Uh, no, they aren't in heaven. What does v.1 say? Mount Sion. That's where the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing. How could you miss this?

How did they get there?

They climbed the mountain. Like everyone else who standing on a mountain.

I can only guess they were caught up.

Of course. you can "only guess". Or speculate, or insinuate.

Rev. 11 Two Witnesses
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Perhaps you don't read all these verses the way I do.

Obviously not.

Here we have yet another resurrection.

Can you prove they received their resurrection bodies on the way up? No, you cannot. They went to heaven just the same way they did the first time.

I will let you guess when this happens. YOu see, I find all these other resurrections that will come t different times. I cannot ignore them.

I don't guess. I let Scripture inform me. Unlike yourself. And in NONE of the "raising of the dead" in the gospels did those raised received their resurrection bodies. If they did, they would be BEFORE Christ got His. So much for "the firstfruits".

You may be able to imagine "peace and safety" after the terrible events that will end the 70th week, but somehow I cannot. It would seem to be the last thing anyone would say.

Can you really not understand that of all the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of judgment, they aren't all back to back, unending.

Why is it so difficult to think that there will be "lulls in the action". It will be at one of the "lulls" that people will be saying, "finally, peace and safety". That's easy to grasp.

FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 15:23 is clear that "those who belong to Him" includes ALL believers of ALL time.

Wrong! It is talking about the church. I thought you looked carefully at these verses.

Yes, I did. And I can hardly believe anyone would think this would only refer to "the church". Paul was clearly speaking about every saved person since Adam.

But since we disagree here, prove that Paul was limiting "those who belong to Him" means only NT believers.

It says "they that are "christ's"...is that not very similar to "In Christ?" It is talking about all born again people. Sorry, this is limited to the rapture of the church.

The verse says "those who belong to Him". Are you actually claiming that no OT believer belongs to Christ, the Messiah?????

OT saints will have to wait until the "last day." No OT person was born again. No one could until Jesus died and rose again.

Prove that from Scripture, not your guesswork.

Are you not aware of Heb 11:26 - He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Even Moses was fully aware of CHRIST! So don't tell me that "those who belong to Him" can't be OT believers. They SURE DO belong to Him.

I find it very interesting that everyone on these forums believes they are right and everyone else is wrong. When the day comes and we arrive in heaven, we will all know.

That is obvious. Since I am sticking with what Scripture says, and am leaving all guesswork to others, I'm not worried.

I have just proven that OT believers were aware of the Christ. So every OT believer "belongs to Him" and is part of the FIRST resurrection, which is when Jesus brings them with Him at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is "One" future time of resurrection for all that have lived, both righteous and wicked Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29

This takes place immediately after the tribulation, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, Matthew 24:29-31

Scripture refutes your claims.

Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Coming in Rev 19. Rev 20 details His return and resurrection of the Trib martyrs, the 1,000 year reign, the brief release of Satan to once again deceive the world, and the battle of God and Magog, in which Jesus destroys the enemy. And then the GWT judgment, where all the unbelievers in history will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Then, Rev 21 details the NHNE and the New Jerusalem.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your Diversion Isn't Going To Work, Gods Words Are Very Clear Below

It's not going to change, when Jesus Christ returns, it's (The End) Read it real slow and pay close attention (Then Cometh The End)

There is no 1,000 year Kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below as you have falsely claimed

As stated you disregard the very clear teaching of scripture, that conflicts with your system of belief, a fact

You Will Closely Note, You Conveniently Disregard The Words (Then Cometh The End) To Maintain The False Teaching Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth, "After The Second Coming", Pretend Like The Words Are Non-Existent

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There is no point in further discussion with you. You have NEVER explained the "ending" of the 1,000 years in Rev 20 because you can't spiritualize it.

Further, you have the "end of the spiritual 1,000 years" as when Christ returns at the Second Advent. That is absurd. Rev 20 shows clearly that the 1,000 years begins AFTER Christ's Second Advent. Which you cannot explain logically or reasonably.

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture refutes your claims.

Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Coming in Rev 19. Rev 20 details His return and resurrection of the Trib martyrs, the 1,000 year reign, the brief release of Satan to once again deceive the world, and the battle of God and Magog, in which Jesus destroys the enemy. And then the GWT judgment, where all the unbelievers in history will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Then, Rev 21 details the NHNE and the New Jerusalem.

Your claim is false, the final judgement takes place at the return of Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Truth7t7]

There is no point in further discussion with you. You have NEVER explained the "ending" of the 1,000 years in Rev 20 because you can't spiritualize it.

Further, you have the "end of the spiritual 1,000 years" as when Christ returns at the Second Advent. That is absurd. Rev 20 shows clearly that the 1,000 years begins AFTER Christ's Second Advent. Which you cannot explain logically or reasonably.

It's not going to change, when Jesus Christ returns, it's (The End) Read it real slow and pay close attention (Then Cometh The End)

There is no 1,000 year Kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below as you have falsely claimed

As stated you disregard the very clear teaching of scripture, that conflicts with your system of belief, a fact

You Will Closely Note, You Conveniently Disregard The Words (Then Cometh The End) To Maintain The False Teaching Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth, "After The Second Coming", Pretend Like The Words Are Non-Existent

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Scripture refutes your claims.

Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Coming in Rev 19. Rev 20 details His return and resurrection of the Trib martyrs, the 1,000 year reign, the brief release of Satan to once again deceive the world, and the battle of God and Magog, in which Jesus destroys the enemy. And then the GWT judgment, where all the unbelievers in history will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Then, Rev 21 details the NHNE and the New Jerusalem.

Your claim is false, the final judgement takes place at the return of Jesus Christ

you only think that because of your failed spiritualization of Rev 20. It occurs AFTER the 1,000 years "has ended".

And why haven't you explained what "has ended" means in reference to "the 1,000 years"?

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The obvious key here is "and His kingdom". At the end of the 1,000 years, He will preside at the GWT judgment, where "every knee shall bow". Sound familiar?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not going to change, when Jesus Christ returns, it's (The End) Read it real slow and pay close attention (Then Cometh The End)

There is no 1,000 year Kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below as you have falsely claimed

As stated you disregard the very clear teaching of scripture, that conflicts with your system of belief, a fact

You Will Closely Note, You Conveniently Disregard The Words (Then Cometh The End) To Maintain The False Teaching Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth, "After The Second Coming", Pretend Like The Words Are Non-Existent

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth As You Falsely Believe And Teach

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Nothing new here. Just your very tired copy and paste post.

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture refutes your claims.

Jesus Christ returns to earth at the Second Coming in Rev 19. Rev 20 details His return and resurrection of the Trib martyrs, the 1,000 year reign, the brief release of Satan to once again deceive the world, and the battle of God and Magog, in which Jesus destroys the enemy. And then the GWT judgment, where all the unbelievers in history will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Then, Rev 21 details the NHNE and the New Jerusalem.

you only think that because of your failed spiritualization of Rev 20. It occurs AFTER the 1,000 years "has ended".

And why haven't you explained what "has ended" means in reference to "the 1,000 years"?


The obvious key here is "and His kingdom". At the end of the 1,000 years, He will preside at the GWT judgment, where "every knee shall bow". Sound familiar?

Your claim is false again, the key is "At His Appearing"

At his appearing the final judgement takes place, and it's his (Eternal Kingdom)

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Consider the following (since you ignored my other posts about THIS "THEN [eita]" word in v.24 being a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached, unlike the "then [tote]" Greek word, as found in Matt24:14! ):



[23] ...Christ firstfruit;

afterward [epeita... ep' EITA] they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24] Then [EITA] cometh the end, when he shall have ...



["THEN/EITA" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached... The SAME WORD is found in v.23 as a combined-word, see... and I doubt you would suggest that "they that are Christ's at his coming" happens IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING "firstfruit Christ"--re: the first LISTED ITEM of these *three* LISTED ITEMS, right?? Thus, verse 24 is not stating "Then IMMEDIATELY the end" (as "Amill-teachings" incorrectly insist)... We should also consider other related texts which also cover SEQUENCE issues, and in view of those ponder what the "FOR" (in v.25) is here for. ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Mark 4:28 -

"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself;

first the blade,

THEN [EITA] the ear,

AFTER THAT [/ THEN - EITA] the full corn in the ear."


[SEQUENTIAL... NOT "THEN IMMEDIATELY..."]

 

[Truth7t7]

Consider the following (since you ignored my other posts about THIS "THEN [eita]" word in v.24 being a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached, unlike the "then [tote]" Greek word, as found in Matt24:14! ):



[23] ...Christ firstfruit;

afterward [epeita... ep' EITA] they that are Christ's at his coming.

[24] Then [EITA] cometh the end, when he shall have ...



["THEN/EITA" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached... The SAME WORD is found in v.23 as a combined-word, see... and I doubt you would suggest that "they that are Christ's at his coming" happens IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING "firstfruit Christ"--re: the first LISTED ITEM of these *three* LISTED ITEMS, right?? Thus, verse 24 is not stating "Then IMMEDIATELY the end" (as "Amill-teachings" incorrectly insist)... We should also consider other related texts which also cover SEQUENCE issues, and in view of those ponder what the "FOR" (in v.25) is here for. ]

Unreadable Chaos

 

[Truth7t7]

^ Mark 4:28 -

"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself;

first the blade,

THEN [EITA] the ear,

AFTER THAT [/ THEN - EITA] the full corn in the ear."


[SEQUENTIAL... NOT "THEN IMMEDIATELY..."]

Unreadable Chaos

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Unreadable Chaos

[says the one who wrote Post #2261 (at the top of this page) in the very same manner! https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4550236 - LOL!]

Unreadable Chaos

I guess, then, that it is not meant for you.



Continue on in your incorrect equating of "then [tote]" and "then [eita]" (just as the incorrect "Amill-teachings" incorrectly taught you. )

 

[VCO]

I am post tribulation

No, I suspect you are GOING WITH US, in the Pre-Trib, as long as you know the HOLY SPIRIT is in you.

 

[VCO]

You should not be so quick to agree! Did you not read? The AC does not even SHOW UP until the midpoint of the "trib." And the days of GT Jesus spoke of really don't start until late in chapter 14.

The truth is, the first half of the "trib" or 70th week is the first 6 trumpet judgments.

(I know, many people imagine the "trib" starts with the first seal. They are mistaken, pulling that seal out of its context.)

The 70th week really starts at the 7th trumpet and ends with the 7th vial.

No, it is a WEEK OF YEARS, MacArthur will teach you that.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

btw, I don't see the 2 witnesses as being given resurrection bodies when they were called back to heaven. No more than when both of them were FIRST called up to heaven apart from physical death. And where do you get the idea that the 144,000 were resurrected?

A couple of things to consider:

--we aren't really told for certain "who" the 2W will be, so we can't really state definitively that they will be "Elijah" and "Enoch" (both of whom were called up to heaven apart from physical death / dying)... They could be two completely new people, existing in the future Trib years (I'm not saying they wouldn't have been "born" prior to those years)

--a resurrection body would be one that had previously "died" and is now "resurrected" (that is, now LIVES [again])... which word (resurrect) just means "to stand again" [on the earth]...

--so AFTER these 2W are shown "to stand again" (i.e. they're resurrected from being previously "dead"), they then "ascended into Heaven"... but nothing in the text states that they had previously been there, or had come from there; since they HAD previously DIED, and now they are ALIVE ("to stand again") they've obviously been "[bodily] resurrected" and thus have "resurrected bodies" (ones that qualify as: "to stand again" on the earth, after previously having been "DEAD" ); their "ascended into Heaven" is a distinct issue, actually...

 

[Runningman]

No, I suspect you are GOING WITH US, in the Pre-Trib, as long as you know the HOLY SPIRIT is in you.

There's no scriptural proof for a pre-trib rapture. The Bible is meant to be the revealed will of God - meaning that if He wanted you to know there is a pre-trib rapture He would plainly state it. He hasn't plainly stated anything of the sort in the Bible.

What God has revealed in the Bible is that the rapture comes after the great tribulation when Jesus returns. God has revealed nothing that suggests He will honor your wish to change the time in which Christ will return to gather His elect.

This means your doctrine is in error. Drop it and get with what the Bible says on this topic.

 

[Evmur]

No, I suspect you are GOING WITH US, in the Pre-Trib, as long as you know the HOLY SPIRIT is in you.

post - trib - pre - wrath.

We are saved from the wrath of God but we are told to expect tribulation