Adventists, Ellen G. White, failed prophecies and scripture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Right. Apart from them denying the gospel and substituting works, what could be wrong?

So, you disagree with the SDA views on Salvation and Sabbath?

If so, which part? Below are direct quotes, so make sure to be specific, and not just say, things with no backing, or you will prove my point, that their is no real discussion.

Thanks!

Belief 10: The Experience of Salvation

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; Isa. 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)


Spiritual Benefits of the Sabbath

Closely alongside these physical and mental benefits are the spiritual benefits. A time for recharging physical and mental health also paves the way for healthy spiritual development. It allows us to be more calm, present, and focused on God.

Sabbath is a day to think about the things we can’t see but affect us every day. This is difficult to do during the busy week when the “material world” takes up all our attention.

We need regular time off to quiet our minds and look for God’s handiwork in the things around us.

Psalm 46:10 invites us to “be still and know He is God” (ESV), which is something we can do in a special way on the Sabbath.

 
  • Like
Reactions: SabbathBlessing
Maybe not purist in some eyes, but both were elders in their associated churches. I think it's fair to have a different view on some topics of the church, but still be a full fledged member. You disagree?

I disagree with substituting works for the gospel. As per my op. You think it's ok to do that? This thread is not about different views on Baptists or whoever whatever, it's about the cult of SDA. It's not about the vatican or Catholics or any other thing.
I don't see SDA as arrogant, far from that. That are very active in their faith and pretty much live what they preach. They have quite the testimony. You will find many Christian Schools and some hospitals run by the SDA Church. Also, they are the second fastest growing church outside of America, which shows they are preaching the Gospel around the world. They also are in the forefront of health and well being and normally are pillars in the community for helping people in the medical field and among other areas of service.

They also have a testimony of keeping the Laws of God, which shouldn't be looked down upon.

The substitution of the gospel by law keeping is more than arrogance. Besides that, believers in Christ do not go around seeing what laws they can break. You can believe in whatever you want, but your convictions sound pretty 'kinda' to me.

You sound like a closet sabbath keeper. It's interesting that you join this thread and then claim the wonders of SDA's.

I prefer to stay on topic which does not support how lenient you appear to be in what you believe.
 
I disagree with substituting works for the gospel. As per my op. You think it's ok to do that? This thread is not about different views on Baptists or whoever whatever, it's about the cult of SDA. It's not about the vatican or Catholics or any other thing.


The substitution of the gospel by law keeping is more than arrogance. Besides that, believers in Christ do not go around seeing what laws they can break. You can believe in whatever you want, but your convictions sound pretty 'kinda' to me.

You sound like a closet sabbath keeper.

I prefer to stay on topic which is not how lenient you appear to be in what you believe.

Who said, anything about substituion? Those are your words only. No where to find this in the SDA faith. This is another logical fallacy on your part. False testimony. If so, please show me where it says, substitution on the SDA website. Please!

So, keeping Sabbath means, arrogance and substitution? Then calling me a closet sabbath keeper?!?!

By the way, someone mentioned what the SDA believe as far as mark of the beast, had to respond to that, to clear up some misinformation. They implied that the SDA church was judging all those that goto church on Sunday.

Do you think your open discussion, or you just want to bad mouth God fearing Christians? Calling the SDA is a cult is just another way of demonizing a body of believers. It's unfair to say the least. It's pretty much the same that Liberals call Trump supporters Nazis.

You should look into Desmond Doss and Dr. Kellog and see what the local SDA church is up to. I feel like your close minded, so go ahead and hate, when it's totally uncalled for.
 

The "shut door" was seen as applying to the closing of the first phase and the opening of the second and final phase of Christ's intercession in heaven.​


Following the 1844 "Great Disappointment," Ellen White, along with many Millerites, initially believed the "shut door" meant probation had closed for the world. She soon understood this as a spiritual door, not a cessation of mercy, confirming her first vision meant Christ moved into the Heavenly Sanctuary.


Key Aspects of the "Shut Door" Belief:
  • Initial View: After Oct. 22, 1844, believers felt their work in warning sinners was done.
  • Definition Change: Early on, she believed it meant the "door of mercy was closed to the world," a view she held before her first vision.
  • The Vision's Meaning: She later clarified in Selected Messages (1883) that light corrected their error, clarifying that the door was to the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary, not a end to salvation.
  • Final Understanding: By 1854, most Adventists accepted that the "shut door" referred to the closure of the 2300-day prophecy rather than the end of all hope for sinners, and they continued to find that new converts could be made.
    Ellen G. White® Estate +4
Although Ellen White was associated with the "Shut Door" Adventist group immediately after 1844, she maintained that she was never shown in vision that no more sinners could be converted, but that her visions corrected the early, wrong interpretation of that time. (Google)
Maybe she had the visions but lacked the gift of interpreting them. Maybe she needed a Joseph. I would say she might have had a B12 deficiency due to her diet but there’s the fact that she was a total hypocrite for 3 decades on that issue according to her own writings.

AI
———————
SHUT DOOR
  • The First Vision (December 1844):
    • Quote: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the city, as all the wicked world which God had rejected."
    • Source: Originally published in The Day-Star, January 24, 1846. Reprints can be found in Selected Messages, Book 1, page 61 (where the rejection of the world is discussed) and mentioned in the preface of Early Writings, page xxix.
  • The "Careless Multitude" Vision (February 1845):
    • Quote: "I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness."
    • Source: Early Writings, page 55 (within the chapter "End of the 2300 Days").
  • The Letter to Eli Curtis (April 21, 1847):
    • Quote: "The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up, and shut the door, and entered the Holy of Holies, at the 7th month 1844."
    • Source: A Word to the "Little Flock", page 12.
  • The "Salvation is Past" Vision (March 24, 1849):
    • Quote: "My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past."
    • Source: Early Writings, page 45 (within the chapter "The Open and the Shut Door").
  • The 1883 "Clarification" (The 34-Year Gap):
    • Quote: "For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me."
    • Source: Selected Messages, Book 1, page 63.




VEGETARIAN HYPOCRISY

The core quote from this revelation, as published in her early health writings, is:

“The Lord has presented a general plan before me. I was shown that God would give to His commandment-keeping people a reform diet, and that as they received this, their disease and suffering would be greatly lessened." (Manuscript 1, 1863; .

She further expanded on the spiritual dangers of meat in her book Spiritual Gifts (1864), based on that same 1863 vision:

“"The practice of eating largely of meat is contracting diseases of all kinds... cancers, humors, scrofula, tuberculosis, and a number of other like affections." (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, p. 147)”

The Request for Oysters and Herring (1882)
Nineteen years after her vision, White wrote to her daughter-in-law, Mary Kelsey White, with a specific shopping list:

“"Mary, if you can get me a good box of herrings, fresh ones, please do so. These last ones that Willie got are bitter and old. . . . If you can get a few cans of good oysters, get them." (Letter 16, 1882)”

Eating Wild Duck in the Rockies (1873)
Ten years after her vision, while traveling, she described the killing and eating of ducks as a divine blessing:

“"Willie went to the lake for water. We heard his gun and found he had shot two ducks. This is really a blessing, for we need something to live upon." (Manuscript 12, 1873)”

The "Beef Tea" for Sickness (1878)
Despite her warnings against animal products, she recorded using beef broth as medicine:

“"I remained on deck until dark. . . the pitching of the boat made me very sick. . . taking but once during that time a little beef tea and cracker." (The Signs of the Times, July 18, 1878)”

Admitting the Struggle (1870 & 1890)
In public, she claimed she never took "one step back" from health reform, but in other writings, she admitted her "backsliding":
  • The Claim: "I have not taken one step back since the light from heaven upon this subject first shone upon my pathway." (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 371)
  • The Reality: "When I could not obtain the food I needed, I have sometimes eaten a little meat." (Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene, p. 117-118, 1890)
    Ellen G. White® Estate +2

The Final "No-Meat" Pledge (1894)
It was not until 31 years after her initial vision that she officially "banished" meat from her table while at a camp meeting in Brighton, Australia:

“"Two years ago [1894] I came to the conclusion that there was danger in using the flesh of dead animals, and since then I have not used meat at all." (Letter 128, 1896)”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Caan and Inquisitor
O.k., below is a google search on why some believe SDA is a cult.

To have a fair discussion, I think it would be reasonable to address the three points, that this search has brought, and maybe confirm or deny. I personally think it's just a hatred of God's Commandments, I can't think of any other reason to be honest, but let's humor the argument.

1. Keeping Sabbath
2. Investigative Judgement
3. Is Ellen White a Prophet?

I think this would make a good discussion here, that totally relates to the thread.

"The Seventh day Adventist Church (SDA) is sometimes labeled a cult due to its unique beliefs, historical context, and the perception of its practices compared to mainstream Christianity.

Historical​

The SDA Church emerged in the mid-19th century, following the "Great Disappointment" when William Miller's prediction of Christ's return failed. This led to the formation of the church by figures like Joseph Bates and Ellen White, who claimed to have received prophetic visions. Critics argue that the church's origins in failed prophecies contribute to its cult-like perception.

Grace Evangelical Society

Unique​

  1. Sabbath Observance: Adventists observe the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, which they believe is a commandment from God. This strict adherence to Sabbath observance sets them apart from many other Christian denominations.

    1
  2. Investigative Judgment: This doctrine, unique to Adventism, posits that Christ is currently judging the lives of believers in heaven. Critics argue that this belief is not biblically supported and contributes to the perception of SDA as a cult.

    2
  3. Ellen White's Authority: Ellen White's writings are considered by many Adventists to hold prophetic authority, which some critics view as placing her writings on par with Scripture. This reliance on her visions and teachings raises concerns among those who believe in the sufficiency of the Bible alone.

    2
  4. ODF.KcghYVaJsuEWbLUIMCSagQ

    ODF.AiT729CaikO4JXyBqJnDag


    4 Sources

Criticism​

Critics of the SDA Church, including some evangelical scholars, have labeled it a cult due to its distinct doctrines and practices that diverge from traditional Christian beliefs. For instance, some argue that the church's teachings on the Trinity and salvation are unorthodox, and they often compare SDA to other groups considered cults, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

Wikipedia+1

Conclusion​

While the SDA Church identifies itself as a legitimate Christian denomination, the combination of its unique beliefs, historical origins, and the authoritative role of Ellen White leads some to classify it as a cult. This classification is often debated, with supporters arguing for its legitimacy based on its adherence to biblical teachings and emphasis on health and religious liberty. Understanding these perspectives is crucial for a comprehensive view of the SDA Church and its place within the broader Christian community."
 
Maybe she had the visions but lacked the gift of interpreting them

Considering the effects of those visions and the anti-gospel contents, I do not think they were from God. At any rate, this thread has deteriorated as do all threads in this forum. At this point, I feel comfortable in saying that it does not matter what is posted in this or any other thread, people are rarely if ever, convinced of anything but what they already believe. It's more or less just a place to come and yak and waste time.

However, being told you are hellbound because you go to church on Sunday should make anyone consider what is really going on with the SDA cult.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBerean
Excellent sites. (y)

One of the most ludicrous arguments that I've heard from SDA's is they teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. :eek:


Right. I posted in a response to Gideon, exactly that particular teaching presented by sabbath in the 10 commandments thread. That is exactly what she claims...it's post 5409 to read it all but I'm posting a section of it here below

The mark of the beast has not happened yet because we are free to worship God on the Sabbath like the commandment of God or Sunday like the tradition of man. But when the law goes in effect where Sunday worship is required and Sabbath worship is against the law that's when the mark of the beast will take in effect. I know this seems far-fetched but they are already working on Sunday laws to pass and you don't pass laws without consequences otherwise there is no teeth to them.

So their belief is that the mark of the beast is actually Sunday worship. Just another departure from scripture.

I don't care at all if someone wants to worship on Saturday...I did myself when I was part of a Messianic congregation....either day or all week long. It's not the day; it's the lies from this cult and the worship of Ellen White. It's straight up evil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mailmandan
Considering the effects of those visions and the anti-gospel contents, I do not think they were from God. At any rate, this thread has deteriorated as do all threads in this forum. At this point, I feel comfortable in saying that it does not matter what is posted in this or any other thread, people are rarely if ever, convinced of anything but what they already believe. It's more or less just a place to come and yak and waste time.

However, being told you are hellbound because you go to church on Sunday should make anyone consider what is really going on with the SDA cult.
Yep. I have no problem with someone attending a church building on a Saturday or Tuesday or any other day. I do have a problem with people telling other Christians they’re going to hell for not going on a certain day. @kinda mentioned that the SDA gets hate for their sabbath observance but they get hate because they dish out hate for Sunday observance. It’s their spiritual arrogance and claim to own the keys to the Kingdom based off a calendar. They place the mark of the beast on anyone that disagrees with their calendar.
 
I have come across SDAs, that don't even believe what the church says, same goes with Baptist. So, not sure that holds a lot of weight.

If you don't think the Vatican has any influence in the U.S., you are tripping. Most of the Supreme Court Justices are Catholic along with, Nancy Pelosi, Gavin Newsom, Former President Joe Biden, J.D. Vance, and even Trump's wife. You also had Anthony Fauci (Catholic) dictating to the whole world how to live under Covid. Coincidene? Maybe? Then there is....Christmas, Easter, Halloween, St. Patrick's Day, not to mention many Federal businesses have Sunday off, but work on the Sabbath. Sunday Sabbath is a Catholic Law. All these national holidays are Catholic origin.

Would you believe the latest Vatican is American? Might be a sign there.. Who knows?

"Blue laws, also known as Sunday laws, are regulations that restrict certain activities on Sundays to promote rest or religious observance, with alcohol sales and retail operations being the most commonly affected."

Historical​

"Blue laws in the U.S. date back to the colonial period, modeled after English laws to enforce the biblical commandment to “remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy”. Virginia enacted the first Sunday law in 1610, requiring attendance at church services, with penalties for noncompliance. Massachusetts followed in 1671, banning unnecessary work, travel, and recreational activities on Sundays. While often associated with Puritans, other religious groups, including Quakers, Catholics, and Anglicans, also implemented Sunday restrictions. The term "blue laws" likely refers to the 18th-century use of "blue" to describe prudish behavior, rather than the color of printed laws. "

View attachment 286825
View attachment 286826

View attachment 286828
View attachment 286829

I don't see SDA as arrogant, far from that. That are very active in their faith and pretty much live what they preach. They have quite the testimony. You will find many Christian Schools and some hospitals run by the SDA Church. Also, they are the second fastest growing church outside of America, which shows they are preaching the Gospel around the world. They also are in the forefront of health and well being and normally are pillars in the community for helping people in the medical field and among other areas of service.

They also have a testimony of keeping the Laws of God, which shouldn't be looked down upon.



Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Is Catholicism considered Christian? Who knew!! 😳 It’s not biblical.
 
Yep. I have no problem with someone attending a church building on a Saturday or Tuesday or any other day. I do have a problem with people telling other Christians they’re going to hell for not going on a certain day. @kinda mentioned that the SDA gets hate for their sabbath observance but they get hate because they dish out hate for Sunday observance. It’s their spiritual arrogance and claim to own the keys to the Kingdom based off a calendar. They place the mark of the beast on anyone that disagrees with their calendar.

Exactly. As far as kinda goes, he is totally misrepresenting what SDA is and what it believes. He sounds like he wants to have one of those lovely fight club exchanges that people sometimes get involved in here in the forum. I don't take him seriously and he's on ignore from my end.

Why would I hate on someone who worships on Saturday when I've done so myself? It's a sad observance to see the ridiculous claims of SDA, then twist them to come up with we hate SDA because they worship on Saturday. First off, I hate the anti gospel nonsense; the people are deceived and I do not hate them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Just_A__Follower

I'm gonna pause at two minutes and see if he speaks the truth or lies.

First bit, he gives a logical fallacy, using guilt by association. Claiming the Watch Tower came out of the Millerite Movement, so SDA is the same.

So, SDA started in 1863, and JW started in 1880.

"Jehovah's Witnesses originated as a branch of the Bible Student movement, which developed in the United States in the 1870s among followers of Christian restorationist minister Charles Taze Russell. Bible Student missionaries were sent to England in 1881 and the first overseas branch was opened in London in 1900."

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church had its roots in the Millerite movement of the 1830s to the 1840s, during the period of the Second Great Awakening, and was officially founded in 1863."

O.k., I'm gonna conclude that the guy is spreading lies. Churches had different start times and different origins.

Second bit after two minutes, Shut Door Prophecy.

"In her 1883 memory statement Ellen White said: For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me."

So, this bit seems like it wasn't from Ellen White, but she agreed with the other Millerites. I would say, this was misleading, and was meant to mislead. Remember this belief held by many in different Churches, so I would say, this is misleading at best. Obviously, Ellen White didn't hold on to this belief, after the great disappointment.
 
Exactly. As far as kinda goes, he is totally misrepresenting what SDA is and what it believes. He sounds like he wants to have one of those lovely fight club exchanges that people sometimes get involved in here in the forum. I don't take him seriously and he's on ignore from my end.

Why would I hate on someone who worships on Saturday when I've done so myself? It's a sad observance to see the ridiculous claims of SDA, then twist them to come up with we hate SDA because they worship on Saturday. First off, I hate the anti gospel nonsense; the people are deceived and I do not hate them.

You proved my point, that there was never any intention to have a discussion, but to just bad mouth the SDA Church. That's fine, if you have me on ignore, you ignored all my questions, so obviously you have nothing to add, but repost half truths and flat out distortions.
 
Is Catholicism considered Christian? Who knew!! 😳 It’s not biblical.

I think you missed the context of my post, but to respond.....Some parts of Catholicism are Biblical, but many other parts are man made doctrines, and pagan/heathen. Sunday Sabbath would be one. Pagans worshipped the Sun, and changing the Sabbath day to the 1st day of the week, instead of the 7th.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SabbathBlessing
I think you missed the context of my post, but to respond.....Some parts of Catholicism are Biblical, but many other parts are man made doctrines, and pagan/heathen. Sunday Sabbath would be one. Pagans worshipped the Sun, and changing the Sabbath day to the 1st day of the week, instead of the 7th.
No, I didn’t. However, whenever I find a point to expound on I do so.

If one bit is, then that’s enough to discredit it. They pray to idols. They pray to Jesus’ mother. Mary and Joseph had a big family (she bore at least 7 kids, that’s including Jesus). Many deny this. My favorite tv series, The Chosen, doesn’t even reflect this fact.

I was told by a Catholic family that they learn whatever the priest wants them to know. They are not like the noble Bereans reading on their own and learning truths in Scripture.

Many did read on their own and found truth, thankfully! They are now first century Christian’s. 🎉

So yes, man-made doctrine!
 
Nice one. I was gonna post that one also. I love Doug Bachelor.
Me too. He was my personal pastor for many years, he really knows the Bible and is a great teacher.

I was surprised to hear some in the SDA church don't think he is that great.
Sadly even Jesus had a Judas.
Wonderful teacher in my mind.
Agree!


I wouldn't even bother trying to reason with anyone on this thread. They are not interested in facts, but a narrative. Its all for God to sort out.

God bless!
 
  • Like
Reactions: rrcn and kinda