And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Jackson123]

Do you realize Matthew 10:28 is just a single verse? I wanted to just show the fact that the soul can be destroyed using a verse that contains the word soul. I know if I show something without the word soul, you’ll have people saying that it doesn’t apply to the soul.

However, the Bible has dozens of examples of guaranteed death and destruction of the wicked.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

I will make summary

destroy do not mean cease to exist

death in the Bible may mean separation from the Lord depend on the context

Matt 10 say God able, not say God will

 

[HeIsHere]

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but I didn’t say annihilate; however, it means the same thing. It doesn’t mean breaking laws of nature if something is destroyed.

You’re reaching pretty far to make seem like the illogical conclusion to reach when the plain text of the Bible says destroy.

Do these verses make it clearer?

James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy

Philippians 3:18-19
18 “For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Again the word "destroy" in and of itself does not speak to the nature of the destruction.

Pulling up verses as proof texts outside of the context and the use of basic hermeneutics is not how we read the Bible nor any other piece of writing for the matter.

 

[HeIsHere]

The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 is taken from a Greek word that means “destroy fully.” If something is destroyed fully by fire then there’s nothing left except smoke and ashes. If God destroys a body and soul then that kills it.

Your hand wasn’t destroyed, it was damaged.

This passage is Jesus giving direction to His disciples.

The text does not state "after death", the textual context of this passage is mostly that of Jesus reassuring his disciples that during these times of impending tribulation to “fear not!”

 

[Runningman]

You admitted that the punishment will be eternal, as Matt 25:46 says. You also say that the soul wil no long exist, which will be the punishment.

So figure out what you believe. You can't have both. Unless you admit to being confused and contradicted.


That's not "eternal". When the soul ceases to exist, the whatever punishment is over. For the punishment to be eternal, the soul must experience it for eternity.


Nope. Straight from the Bible.


They have NONE of it correct. In fact, the Bible describes them as FOOLS in Psa 14:1 and 53:1.

Now you’re misunderstanding my words. Obviously I don’t believe what you’re saying I believe. I don’t believe you honestly think I have reversed positions on this. No.

Despite you having the Bible you still haven’t figured it out. I’ve watched you talk about this for long enough to know that you’re just an intellectually dishonest person with an agenda.

Every now and then you reveal your hand when you won’t allow the word soul to mean soul, but instead change it to body. Or when you chose a figurative interpretation because that helps you. Or when you intentionally misunderstand me. You know your case is weak and is getting manhandled. You just don’t have any proof. If you didn’t know this before, you certainly know it now. You’re welcome for enlightening you.

 

[Jackson123]

to my knowledge the doctrine of no eternal punishment is from SDA

read the history of Ellen white

she make wrong prophecy os second coming

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...781948766531&usg=AOvVaw3Gkzdwz1wGNYGhZHTtb2FY

 

[Runningman]

Again the word "destroy" in and of itself does not speak to the nature of the destruction.

Pulling up verses as proof texts outside of the context and the use of basic hermeneutics is not how we read the Bible nor any other piece of writing for the matter.

My point is that other verses guarantee the destruction of the unsaved. That’s entirely relevant since the topic is about the destruction of the wicked,

 

[Amanuensis]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Those that receive the mark are included in this "destruction" which is the kind that includes torment and no rest day or night FOR EVER AND EVER...

After 24 pages of weak attempts nothing has changed the plain meaning of the text. The Lake of Fire is the final place of torment and the torment never ends. All the wicked go there eventually.

When will people get a revelation of how awful wickedness is? There is no escaping this torment except for the cross of Christ. No one gets to escape in unconscious rest from the torment. No one will get the break of being "put out of their misery".

This is just. It is the law of wickedness. It cannot be annulled.

 

[HeIsHere]

My point is that other verses guarantee the destruction of the unsaved. That’s entirely relevant since the topic is about the destruction of the wicked,

Find one verse in context that means the destruction of the wicked post mortem. I am still waiting on that.

Every verse you have pulled up is about God acting upon people on planet earth.

Annihilationists like plain text and no context because that seems to make it work, that is what I am reading anyway.

Scripture (the writers) employ many styles of writing using idioms of the day, hyperbole and figurative speech.

This blanket approach with no real use of basic hermeneutics and the larger picture at play of that culture is really not very good, one can make scripture mean anything like cults do.

 

[Runningman]

Find one verse in context that means the destruction of the wicked post mortem. I am still waiting on that.

Every verse you have pulled up is about God acting upon people on planet earth.

Annihilationists like plain text and no context because that seems to make it work, that is what I am reading anyway.

Scripture (the writers) employ many styles of writing using idioms of the day, hyperbole and figurative speech.

This blanket approach with no real use of basic hermeneutics and the larger picture at play of that culture is really not very good, one can make scripture mean anything like cults do.

John 3:16 is about the post-Morten salvation of the saved person. Do you agree? Then those who don’t believe in Christ will perish post-mortem.

John 6:51 is about the post-mortem eternal life of the saved. Therefore, the post-mortem fate of the unsaved is they will not have eternal life. Like John 3:16 says, the unsaved perish. Perish means destroy fully.

Matthew 10:28 says God is able to destroy soul and body. That’s post-mortem.

Ezekiel 18:20 Says the soul who sins is the one who will die. Obviously when unsaved people sin they don’t instantly drop dead, not usually. That means the death they’ll have is post-mortem.

Romans 2:7 says “He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers." Then the reverse must be true. Those who don’t keep on doing good will not receive eternal life post-mortem. The process by which they lose eternal life is destruction.

I’m just getting started. This is all Bible.

 

[Runningman]

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Those that receive the mark are included in this "destruction" which is the kind that includes torment and no rest day or night FOR EVER AND EVER...

After 24 pages of weak attempts nothing has changed the plain meaning of the text. The Lake of Fire is the final place of torment and the torment never ends. All the wicked go there eventually.

When will people get a revelation of how awful wickedness is? There is no escaping this torment except for the cross of Christ. No one gets to escape in unconscious rest from the torment. No one will get the break of being "put out of their misery".

This is just. It is the law of wickedness. It cannot be annulled.

Only the smoke rises forever. It doesn’t say forever torment. No rest day or night refers to an indeterminate number of days and nights; that could just be one night. Furthermore, it doesn’t apply to all unsaved people. The context is about a specific group of people at a specific time in prophecy.

 

[CS1]

John 3:16 is about the post-Morten salvation of the saved person. Do you agree? Then those who don’t believe in Christ will perish post-mortem.

John 6:51 is about the post-mortem eternal life of the saved. Therefore, the post-mortem fate of the unsaved is they will not have eternal life. Like John 3:16 says, the unsaved perish. Perish means destroy fully.

Matthew 10:28 says God is able to destroy soul and body. That’s post-mortem.

Ezekiel 18:20 Says the soul who sins is the one who will die. Obviously when unsaved people sin they don’t instantly drop dead, not usually. That means the death they’ll have is post-mortem.

Romans 2:7 says “He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers." Then the reverse must be true. Those who don’t keep on doing good will not receive eternal life post-mortem. The process by which they lose eternal life is destruction.

I’m just getting started. This is all Bible.

the false teaching of annihilationism makes Jesus' words untruth. Therefore the teaching is unbiblical and anti-Christ

 

[Runningman]

I will make summary

destroy do not mean cease to exist

death in the Bible may mean separation from the Lord depend on the context

Matt 10 say God able, not say God will

have you ever seen someone be cremated? There’s nothing left but ashes and bits of bone. That’s what it means to be destroyed.

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Sodom and Gomorrah turned to ashes as an example of what will happen to the ungodly. They’ll be destroyed post-mortem. Completely burned up.

 

[Runningman]

the false teaching of annihilationism makes Jesus' words untruth. Therefore the teaching is unbiblical and anti-Christ

But you’re the one contradicting Jesus aren’t you? I agree with Jesus when He said God can destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16 says that only the saved will have eternal life, all others perish which means post-mortem destruction.

Now your judgement returns to you. By your own standard, you’re anti-Christ. You should talk less and listen more on this subject.

 

[Runningman]

And by the way, you won’t make many friends speaking the truth of the matter on this subject, but who cares about the praise of men. He who speaks the truth will receive his praise from God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

where does destroy the soul equal to annihilate?

 

[JTB]

Meanwhile, my assertion that the lake of fire is created by the decreation of the world, and that those who love this world more than they love God are given it in it's natural state apart from God, is met by crickets.

Imho, it perfectly explains this whole mess.

 

[Jackson123]

have you ever seen someone be cremated? There’s nothing left but ashes and bits of bone. That’s what it means to be destroyed.

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Sodom and Gomorrah turned to ashes as an example of what will happen to the ungodly. They’ll be destroyed post-mortem. Completely burned up.

when people burn physical body, they dehydrate the water from the body, the water turn to vapor the dry material turn to ash nothing perish

soul is not physical material, so don’t think about tangible material to analyze soul

sodom as example

sodom destroyed is sodom cease to exist?

the building turn to ash but not nothing left, at least ashes left over

 

[Runningman]

when people burn physical body, they dehydrate the water from the body, the water turn to vapor the dry material turn to ash nothing perish

soul is not physical material, so don’t think about tangible material to analyze soul

sodom as example

sodom destroyed is sodom cease to exist?

the building turn to ash but not nothing left, at least ashes left over

Sodom and Gomorrah definitely don’t exist anymore. The Bible says they are an example of what happens to ungodly people. How can ungodly people exist anymore if they are reduced to ashes?

You have this definition of destroy that seems to mean that nothing is destroyed. Your definition of death is no one dies. But when it comes to everlasting life you believe that’s literal.

Do you see that you cherry pick your interpretations to make them mean the opposite of what they do in order to prop up your belief that the unsaved somehow never die, are never destroyed, and somehow live forever in hell? Despite the clear words of Jesus that only those with faith in Him live forever. That’s chaos bro.

 

[Runningman]

Meanwhile, my assertion that the lake of fire is created by the decreation of the world, and that those who love this world more than they love God are given it in it's natural state apart from God, is met by crickets.

Imho, it perfectly explains this whole mess.

I remember that post actually and thought it was quite intriguing. I’ve actually considered that as a possibility before and I can’t say I disagree with it.

 

[Jackson123]

Sodom and Gomorrah definitely don’t exist anymore. The Bible says they are an example of what happens to ungodly people. How can ungodly people exist anymore if they are reduced to ashes?

You have this definition of destroy that seems to mean that nothing is destroyed. Your definition of death is no one dies. But when it comes to everlasting life you believe that’s literal.

Do you see that you cherry pick your interpretations to make them mean the opposite of what they do in order to prop up your belief that the unsaved somehow never die, are never destroyed, and somehow live forever in hell? Despite the clear words of Jesus that only those with faith in Him live forever. That’s chaos bro.

my brother, let me ask you a question
is destroy mean cease to exist?