Applying God's Word to Politics

[Boughtwithaprice]

Meaning what?

..meaning, they recognized their sole citizenship in heaven and accepted they were not a part of this world, but were foreigners in whatever country they resided, even the country of their birth.

They were taught to focus on the heavenly things and spiritual matters, not on politics. Their ruler was not a king, queen, president, prime minister, czar, nor any earthly ruler- they had one King, Jesus. They didn't divide their loyalty to God.

 

[studier]

@studier first of all thank you for the well-written and intelligent post.
I agree with you in almost all the points and these are points which i have mentioned here before many times. We can discuss them further and i don't mind repeating myself but i can tell you with all my heart that i agree with you on almost all the points.

Thank you for the kind words. No matter how I may come across at times, my intention is simply what I asked God for at my conversion. I made one request of Him, 'I just want to know the truth.'

This is why i mentioned to you the examples of two christian nations (Greece and USA) in relation to their approach on abortion.
We need to distinguish that implementing something into law based on our understanding of the Bible is very different from exhibiting our love for God in free-will to a secular audience and even within ourselves as Christians as evidenced with the example of two nations (Greece and USA) having a different stance on abortion which many Christians in USA want to link a lawful and biblical angle to it.
This is what we need to separate and understand.

Will you elaborate on my highlighted portion of your above statement?

• If we know something to be right or wrong according to God, then how do we exhibit our love for Him and for Neighbor as Self by not explaining it to our Neighbor and placing our vote re: implementation into national law? Are we to be silent and/or not vote?
  • Lev19:18 Love Neighbor is stated in the context of rebuking/correcting a Neighbor who is out of line. Such rebuke would thus be Love for God (obeying God) and Love for Neighbor to keep them out of discipline and in conformity to the godly community.

Having this sort of "blind" righteousness can lead inevitably anyone into extremes as it's shown in Muslim countries or even at other points in history where the Christian church itself prosecuted free-minds for their observations of reality, morality and free will.This is why we can never confuse the KOG for which Christ told us it's in us when we accept Him, with some topic-of-the-day in politics at this point in history while we're alive and at this corner of the globe.

• I guess my question here is that being imperfect and having imperfect understanding, some degree of extremes are inevitable. This cannot paralyze us into doing nothing. So, what do we do vs. not do?

But, they or other men before them in history have nothing to do with the Kingdom of God that Christ told us about.
And to bring this home to the topic, Christ Himself did NOT establish and earthly kingdom here did He? Despite all the disappointment of many Jews who were waiting for a military commander.
This is what we need to remember. Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem bring us home, full-circle back into The Garden conditions of Adam and Eve in the presence of God

• First thoughts, since Jesus in parables taught about the KOG, some of what we know is that it would spread and grow. What does the spread and growth of the KOG look like as it gains mass on the earth, especially in a nation where Christians have a voice and a vote? We cannot deny our new nature created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. You mention tolerance. Part of righteous judgment is mercy and compassion. At the same time Paul in Acts17 notified pagans that the time for ignorance [about God] is past and God is commanding all men everywhere to repent (I take the repentance from close context being to repent/turn from their ignorance about God) because the day of Judgment by the resurrected Judge has been set.
• If we are too tolerant we simply promote the concept that God is also. If we are too harsh, then we promote that He too is harsh and unforgiving and lacks mercy and compassion. The problem is that He is both kind and severe and at some point the severity will be realized.
• I suppose we enter into eschatological understandings also which is why I invited @ParticularWife with her PostMil belief and Theonomic background to discuss this.
  • I also think some of her input on communities might be interesting. Within all this MAGA energy and youth looking at where we are now, there are at least 2 things going on that I see: (1) the MAGA national efforts while at the same time, (2) a drive to have small communities that take care of their own healthy needs and not rely on the larger systems that have resulted in the perversions of what sustains us. Within this #2, I'm also seeing articles asking if we should break up these overly large congregations into smaller ones.

Interesting times. Thanks for the discussion. So, what does the KOG really look like as it grows and spreads?

 

[Boughtwithaprice]

I could not have said it better. God bless you.

I thank you for your kind response, but I merely quoted, (and paraphrased), Scripture.

God bless you, as well.

 

[studier]

..meaning, they recognized their sole citizenship in heaven and accepted they were not a part of this world, but were foreigners in whatever country they resided, even the country of their birth.

They were taught to focus on the heavenly things and spiritual matters, not on politics. Their ruler was not a king, queen, president, prime minister, czar, nor any earthly ruler- they had one King, Jesus. They didn't divide their loyalty to God.

I think Paul dealt with the reality that he also had a national citizenship plus was part of a culture with its national identity and leadership. Not being of the world while in the world leaves us with some dynamics we must contend with. They had to contend with worldly leaders and make decisions about what to obey at times - God or men - thus whether or not men were in line with God or not.

Also, the world has moved on from early times AD. The political theories now in place can be and are in many cases much different. Paul dealt with his times and we need to deal with ours. The bottom line principle stands - obey God rather than men - and the Romans 9 instructions re dealing with human government remains - but there are other governmental realities in place now.

Let's face reality, not knowing where you live, we all contend with human government every day. And, many, including me, think everything is ultimately spiritual. When I think about the things above I learn His guidance and wisdom on dealing with His creation, which includes the here and now being in the world but not of the world.

 

[Eli1]

Will you elaborate on my highlighted portion of your above statement?

• If we know something to be right or wrong according to God, then how do we exhibit our love for Him and for Neighbor as Self by not explaining it to our Neighbor and placing our vote re: implementation into national law? Are we to be silent and/or not vote?
• • Lev19:18 Love Neighbor is stated in the context of rebuking/correcting a Neighbor who is out of line. Such rebuke would thus be Love for God (obeying God) and Love for Neighbor to keep them out of discipline and in conformity to the godly community.

I guess my question here is that being imperfect and having imperfect understanding, some degree of extremes are inevitable. This cannot paralyze us into doing nothing. So, what do we do vs. not do?

Both of these points are simply answered by separating the topics of KOG and MAGA first because we are going to deal with unbelievers when we try to legislate something which is why I used the word ‘Tolerance’ because you will be dealing with people who don’t believe. This is global not just USA.
The moment you try to legislate something on religious basis, it will be seen as a backwards and controlling move or an extremists move. This is similar again to the trans ideology who they have legislated a lot of dumb ideas based on their lifestyles, which brought the MAGA counter reaction.
The reason for this is that power corrupts. Which is why we need checks and balances. USA already has them despite the intrusions from the left.

So we can certainly vote, but not on any type of Biblical basis. For example I would vote for Trump this year because it’s needed not because of any Biblical basis.
I didn’t vote because I live in a blue state but if I lived on a swing state I’d vote for Trump. Without hesitation.

At the same time by spreading the KOG on a personal level it leads us into a society which is more Christ-based but even with that it can never be fully Christ based. You know why? Because Christ when it’s linked to our earthly politics is associated as a “socialist” from an American conservative point of view. But it may not be associated as “socialism” for other countries who see America as a conservative nation. I hope you understand this and that you will have disagreements right away.
And as I have personal experience with communism, the world can never be in a communist or socialist system without oppressing its people into classes. So communism never works, despite confusion in conservative crowds as to what communism or socialism actually is when they throw these words around.

This is why only God can achieve this! Why? Well because only He can turn a dozen loafs or bread and fishes to feed a crowd of 5000 people!
This is because we are not gods or masters of the universe. Only the Real True God is the master of the universe who performs miracles!
So, it’s a matter of resources too. This is why we can’t bring the real KOG here even if we reach a point where we might have 9 billion Christians on Earth.

I hope that this answers the ideas on your later post too. If not, please ask me anything else.
I was trying to give you an overall essence of what a Christian world would look like where we have no abortions ( or minimal ) and no killings (or minimal) where ultimately despite respecting and loving each-other because our unifying factor is Christ, we still can’t bring the real KOG here on earth.

• First thoughts, since Jesus in parables taught about the KOG, some of what we know is that it would spread and grow. What does the spread and growth of the KOG look like as it gains mass on the earth, especially in a nation where Christians have a voice and a vote? We cannot deny our new nature created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. You mention tolerance. Part of righteous judgment is mercy and compassion. At the same time Paul in Acts17 notified pagans that the time for ignorance [about God] is past and God is commanding all men everywhere to repent (I take the repentance from close context being to repent/turn from their ignorance about God) because the day of Judgment by the resurrected Judge has been set.
• If we are too tolerant we simply promote the concept that God is also. If we are too harsh, then we promote that He too is harsh and unforgiving and lacks mercy and compassion. The problem is that He is both kind and severe and at some point the severity will be realized.
• I suppose we enter into eschatological understandings also which is why I invited @ParticularWife with her PostMil belief and Theonomic background to discuss this.
• • I also think some of her input on communities might be interesting. Within all this MAGA energy and youth looking at where we are now, there are at least 2 things going on that I see: (1) the MAGA national efforts while at the same time, (2) a drive to have small communities that take care of their own healthy needs and not rely on the larger systems that have resulted in the perversions of what sustains us. Within this #2, I'm also seeing articles asking if we should break up these overly large congregations into smaller ones.

Interesting times. Thanks for the discussion. So, what does the KOG really look like as it grows and spreads?

 

[studier]

I just posted on the KISSed HOB thread requesting input regarding the Nicene Creed if you would like to share there. Thanks.

I looked over there but it would take quite a bit for me to fit into what you are doing. The Nicene Creed is quite short and concise and was a resolution of whether the Son of God was created on begotten. If He was created from nothing then He had a beginning and was separate in essence from God. If He was begotten, then He was always in and a part of God and is of the substance of God.

What was fascinating was how this was so intensely divisive and how many agendas and personalities it brought out. I saw you dealing with hierarchies in the early Church. This was an early part of those battles and agendas that resulted in being involved with and supported by secular government. Some of the arguments back and forth in addition to earlier writings reveal that there was no centralized hierarchy beyond some substantial unity in protecting Apostolic Doctrine.

Don't quote me, but that's off the top of my head.

 

[studier]

Both of these points are simply answered by separating the topics of KOG and MAGA first because we are going to deal with unbelievers when we try to legislate something which is why I used the word ‘Tolerance’ because you will be dealing with people who don’t believe. This is global not just USA.
The moment you try to legislate something on religious basis, it will be seen as a backwards and controlling move or an extremists move. This is similar again to the trans ideology who they have legislated a lot of dumb ideas based on their lifestyles, which brought the MAGA counter reaction.
The reason for this is that power corrupts. Which is why we need checks and balances. USA already has them despite the intrusions from the left.

Does it matter how it will be seen to legislate something? And what is a religious basis? Murder is a religious issue. What isn't? I had many discussions with an online community in a very blue state leading up to its homosexual marriage legislation. Of course there were many different opinions for supporting the legislation. Some of what I thought was the most honest and reasoned input had to do with concerns re: things like hospital visitation and insurance - practical things. I agreed that laws had been structured to support heterosexual marriage and its family based development of the society. My suggestion no matter the task was to start digging into all manmade laws and consider such things rather than changing the entire moral structure of that culture.

I guess I'd say that with the millions of manmade laws on the books, there'a a lot to do. And, if there had been and is more diligence, we wouldn't be facing the need for such a backlash against such extremes.

I'd also say that the rise of MAGA against what your analogy of the trans issue, is that trans is a minor part of what MAGA is all about. That's why I originally asked you to make trans very clear. MAGA is more about the 4th branch of government topic and the takeover and sell-out of a nation. The H1b issue is shaking some of this out. Fringe issue will be dealt with simply, quickly and decisively (to the degree possible with our legal system). These business issue will be intense as this one is showing IMO.

So we can certainly vote, but not on any type of Biblical basis. For example I would vote for Trump this year because it’s needed not because of any Biblical basis.
I didn’t vote because I live in a blue state but if I lived on a swing state I’d vote for Trump. Without hesitation.

Interesting. I vote solely on a Biblical basis.

At the same time by spreading the KOG on a personal level it leads us into a society which is more Christ-based but even with that it can never be fully Christ based. You know why? Because Christ when it’s linked to our earthly politics is associated as a “socialist” from an American conservative point of view. But it may not be associated as “socialism” for other countries who see America as a conservative nation. I hope you understand this and that you will have disagreements right away.
And as I have personal experience with communism, the world can never be in a communist or socialist system without oppressing its people into classes. So communism never works, despite confusion in conservative crowds as to what communism or socialism actually is when they throw these words around.

"Never" is a long time. You're breaking into eschatological leanings. My wife grew up under communism. She provides perspectives for me at times.

Thanks. It's a big conversation.

 

[Eli1]

Does it matter how it will be seen to legislate something? And what is a religious basis? Murder is a religious issue. What isn't? I had many discussions with an online community in a very blue state leading up to its homosexual marriage legislation. Of course there were many different opinions for supporting the legislation. Some of what I thought was the most honest and reasoned input had to do with concerns re: things like hospital visitation and insurance - practical things. I agreed that laws had been structured to support heterosexual marriage and their family based development of the society. My suggestion no matter the task was to start digging into all manmade laws and consider such things rather than changing the entire moral structure of that culture.

You're absolutely right that it doesn't matter how it's seen which is something i was trying to explain to the major that you can have something that says "don't kill" but people still do it anyway. So where is the KOG then?
The only reason this matters is that any religions nation tends to devolve into a dictatorship similar to a communist nation.
The dark ages in Europe are a testimony to this.

I guess I'd say that with the millions of manmade laws on the books, there'a a lot to do. And, if there had been and is more diligence, we wouldn't be facing the need for such a backlash against such extremes.

USA is a country of extremes because it has the burden of being an empire at this point in time.
We're not a peaceful island nation where nobody knows we exist doing our own thing. No, USA influences the whole world and controls to a degree many areas of the world, militarily, economically and culturally.
So, it's par for the course for an empire with all its good and bad things. I would say more good but only God will judge what is good.

I'd also say that the rise of MAGA against what your analogy of the trans issue, is that trans is a minor part of what MAGA is all about. That's why I originally asked you to make trans very clear. MAGA is more about the 4th branch of government topic and the takeover and sell-out of a nation. The H1b issue is shaking some of this out. Fringe issue will be dealt with simply, quickly and decisively (to the degree possible with our legal system). These business issue will be intense as this one is showing IMO.

Absolutely! I'm aware of this and i mention trans because it's sort of like the cherry on top but i realize that immigration, dei, the economy and other areas of woke ideology have created the MAGA ideology as a response.

My wife grew up under communism

What country is she from if you don't mind sharing? If you don't want to share this, no problem i understand.
Thank you for the discussion, it's been a while i've had a discussion like this in this forum.
I appreciate it.
God bless you brother! You and the family!

 

[studier]

What country is she from if you don't mind sharing. If you don't want to share this, no problem i understand.
Thank you for the discussion, it's been a while i've had a discussion like this in this forum.
I appreciate it.
God bless you brother! You and the family!

Good discussion has physically hungered & fatigued me (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak) so I'll cut to the end. It's good to see such conversations can be had on CC. I would like to see the "millennial" chime in (I think). My wife is from Slovakia and was in college when what she calls the 'velvet revolution' took place.

Where are you? It looks like you've been a few places.

 

[Eli1]

Good discussion has physically hungered & fatigued me (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak) so I'll cut to the end. It's good to see such conversations can be had on CC. I would like to see the "millennial" chime in (I think). My wife is from Slovakia and was in college when what she calls the 'velvet revolution' took place.

Where are you? It looks like you've been a few places.

I was born in Albania which unfortunately went under the influence of the eastern block after WW2 where the communists influenced the outcome of the elections and a dictator who ruined the country for almost 50 years rose to power.
Operations from the British and the Americans failed to liberate the country using CIA tactics because our dictator was very good and well versed in espionage.
Very nice talking to you and yes i hope the based millennial joins the table too.

 

[studier]

Thanks!

 

[GWH]

@studier first of all thank you for the well-written and intelligent post.
I agree with you in almost all the points and these are points which i have mentioned here before many times. We can discuss them further and i don't mind repeating myself but i can tell you with all my heart that i agree with you on almost all the points.

However, to stay a bit focused on the topic since we agree on everything else, we need to understand our "confusion" of mixing earthly politics with the KOG.
This is why i mentioned to you the examples of two christian nations (Greece and USA) in relation to their approach on abortion.
We need to distinguish that implementing something into law based on our understanding of the Bible is very different from exhibiting our love for God in free-will to a secular audience and even within ourselves as Christians as evidenced with the example of two nations (Greece and USA) having a different stance on abortion which many Christians in USA want to link a lawful and biblical angle to it.
This is what we need to separate and understand.

Having this sort of "blind" righteousness can lead inevitably anyone into extremes as it's shown in Muslim countries or even at other points in history where the Christian church itself prosecuted free-minds for their observations of reality, morality and free will.
This is why we can never confuse the KOG for which Christ told us it's in us when we accept Him, with some topic-of-the-day in politics at this point in history while we're alive and at this corner of the globe.

Many nations, Christian or not, will legislate their country based on tolerance. When the tolerance shifts and becomes intolerant then societies correct themselves. This is how it's always been in history including atheist nations.
This is why i also support Trump, Maga and conservatives because they are a reaction to the extremity of the left. But, they or other men before them in history have nothing to do with the Kingdom of God that Christ told us about.
And to bring this home to the topic, Christ Himself did NOT establish and earthly kingdom here did He? Despite all the disappointment of many Jews who were waiting for a military commander.
This is what we need to remember. Kingdom of God and the New Jerusalem bring us home, full-circle back into The Garden conditions of Adam and Eve in the presence of God. Where we can see, hear and touch God and be forever at peace and joy (which begins here and now by having KOG in our hearts) and where we will understand (hopefully) many mysteries of existence (1 John 3:2 ) which we don't understand here and now such as What is free-will or What is an incorruptible body How was the universe created and many many other topics.
We will be home but with more appreciation due to our growth and free-will.

I also agree with y

Some random thoughts and questions in response.

• There are always many interpretations of things as we work to narrow down to truth and reality. There is also in the KOG discussion, the concept that the internal KOG is working at a level that is not a work in the world. For example, don't be angry vs. don't murder. Christ is being internalized to conform Christians to His likeness. Ultimately this is God's will for all mankind and is a way of looking at an elaborated meaning of 1Tim2:4 that @GWH uses a lot.
• As the KOG is being developed within, it is to spread without. Behind the individual, if we take one of @ParticularWife desires for community and we have the KOG within ideally all, then we have a small collective of the KOG - a.k.a. Christ's Ekklesia (community instead of "church") manifesting Righteousness outwardly. I'm not using "morality" because even though we use it widely, it is not a word God appropriated in our Text and probably for good reason since what I've just described being developed within Christians is beyond human viewpoint morality.
• I guess a question as it relates to politics, is, 'when we Christians have God's Standards and know that God has instilled them in mankind (i.e. you shall not murder), then why do we not function as salt and light (another thing @GWH speaks of frequently) in the nation we've been born into in time and space according to God, and promote God's standards in the secular realm. The earth is our Lord's, it's KING. We're not forcing others to be Christians but standing for God's Standards that He's placed in the conscience of His creatures and codified for a specific culture of them.
  • I don't know if you're familiar with Theonomy that @ParticularWife mentioned, but this is the basic question it asked, 'By What Standard?' As I read it and was involved in some of the discussions online, for some who considered it worthy of discussion, it became one of 'how do we read and interpret God's Law?' IOW, it's pretty simple to say that 'Do not murder' should be universal among men, but what about the rest of the Mosaic Code?
  • For some of us dealing with secular society just meant I don't want you trying to murder me or steal my wife and if you do then I want a culture structured to deal with your or providing for me to deal with you and backing me up depending upon the circumstances. You can apply this conceptually to many issues we're dealing with today, i.e. I don't want you in a public restroom with my daughter and you best not go there.
  • Is this an outworking of the KOG to some degree? Is it salt and light preserving a culture and in effect saying there is a God whose Standards need to be preserved on earth (while some of us know the KOG is being developed within us that is far more in depth than these basic morality issues?).
• From there, we can discuss what MAGA is really about. And then we have to have agreement on terms like 'Christian Nationalism' & 'Theocracy' and such because these are phrases thrown at such ideologies to try to discredit them.
  • Since we live in a nation that votes (whatever we think of such a political theory), do we want:
    • Cheating in elections?
    • Men in little girls restrooms?
    • Criminals looting the national treasury?
    • Criminal takeover of the justice system?
    • Etc, etc, etc?
  • Why is the US political theory not an allowance of God to teach us how to think and function in a form of Gov't that provides for us to learn to consider issues from a Biblical viewpoint and decide accordingly? It may be quite a teaching tool even if it exposes how poorly we are collectively at doing it well. It also may reveal some who are fairly good at it and thus have learned from Him.

Just some thoughts to see where we can take this.

What you said re the KOG is what I have been saying to Eli, so hopefully the way you said it will penetrate that Albanian brain of his! :^)

 

[Eli1]

What you said re the KOG is what I have been saying to Eli, so hopefully the way you said it will penetrate that Albanian brain of his! :^)

Love ya brother!
Can't wait for you to tell this millennial girl that it's the women's fault if old men shouldn't be allowed to drive because they're too old.

 

[GWH]

Love ya brother!
Can't wait for you to tell this millennial girl that it's the women's fault if old men shouldn't be allowed to drive because they're too old.

LIC, Eli, but one thing: The command correctly translated in context is "Thou shalt not murder", not kill.

 

[GWH]

I looked over there but it would take quite a bit for me to fit into what you are doing. The Nicene Creed is quite short and concise and was a resolution of whether the Son of God was created on begotten. If He was created from nothing then He had a beginning and was separate in essence from God. If He was begotten, then He was always in and a part of God and is of the substance of God.

What was fascinating was how this was so intensely divisive and how many agendas and personalities it brought out. I saw you dealing with hierarchies in the early Church. This was an early part of those battles and agendas that resulted in being involved with and supported by secular government. Some of the arguments back and forth in addition to earlier writings reveal that there was no centralized hierarchy beyond some substantial unity in protecting Apostolic Doctrine.

Don't quote me, but that's off the top of my head.

Oh crud, I was just going to ask you if I could copy this and paste it there with appropriate edits.

 

[Eli1]

LIC, Eli, but one thing: The command correctly translated in context is Thou shalt not murder, not kill.

Yes that's how that translation ties to the American justice system right?
Shoot a guy on your lawn? Checks out! All good. Time to grab a sandwich.

But shoot a guy anywhere else? That's murder!
Good one major!

 

[Eli1]

Oh BTW, NC what LIC is but LYA.

 

[GWH]

Yes that's how that translation ties to the American justice system right?
Shoot a guy on your lawn? Checks out! All good. Time to grab a sandwich.

But shoot a guy anywhere else? That's murder!
Good one major!

No, I guess you are unfamiliar with GN 9:6 and EX 21:12,14.15,16, 17, 23,29, etc. (not in the Albanian Bible ? :^)

 

[Eli1]

No, I guess you are unfamiliar with GN 9:6 and EX 21:12,14.15,16, 17, 23,29, etc. (not in the Albanian Bible ? :^)

I guess you are unfamiliar with MT 26:52 due to your culture but it's okay.
And yes in the Albanian bible we don't have the word "murder" in the 6th commandment because we're not a legalistic society.
The translation is "kill", or the English version of it anyway.
When you take a human life, you take a human life.
It's not a technicality of How and When.

 

[studier]

Oh crud, I was just going to ask you if I could copy this and paste it there with appropriate edits.

If you want to make it your own, please feel free. Then you can be responsible for any errors I may have made