Thank you for linking this. It's a good website, it seems quite useful.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
More nonsense from the naysayers, who are now attempting to cast doubt on the written Word of God. The fact that ABSOLUTELY every English translation has 1 Cor 14:34 and ABSOLUTELY every Greek text has the same verse is sufficient to confirm that there is no doubt whatsoever about this verse or this passage of Scripture or the context in which it was written.
Let me put it more bluntly: WHEN CHRISTIANS CAST DOUBT ON AUTHENTIC SCRIPTURE THEY ARE DOING THE DEVIL'S WORK.
L
loyaldisciple
Guest
That was a very good testimony my friend and I am so glad you sought after the LORD and found Him. That was the greatest and most wise decision you ever made in your entire life. I am not afraid to admit that I too was a horribly selfish person at one time caught up in the evil web of alcoholism and drugs. And just as you, I have seen the walls of jail many times. I understand there are places that will receive an individual no matter his/her condition or state of mind and immediately have them go through a detox program and begin to minister unto them. Those facilities are a valuable asset to our society and we could surely use many more of them. However, in our earlier conversation we were speaking of the "church" itself. The Bible states that a minister must protect his flock. In doing so, there are simply certain individuals not in any condition to be sitting among the congregation until they receive some other type of treatment for their problems. Such as detox. It would not be wise to allow those "strung out" as you say to be sitting aside his congregation while he is attempting to minister the gospel. In those cases the individual needs to go through some other sort of program first, just like you were mentioning, "before" sitting in the pews of a church. Your testimony that you went to "faith farm" prior to sitting directly in a church is a prime example of just what I am referring to. I have not suggested placing any limits upon who should be offered help and the true word. If that is, in any way, what you believe then you have misunderstood my thoughts and my position. Again , I am glad you have turned your life around and I have no desire to attack you on anything. I simply felt it necessary to point out the fact that not everyone is ready to begin sitting within the church. I pointed out that fact, only because it appeared as though you were thinking it was fine for "anyone" to immediately join the congregation. Something that is not always a wise thing to do.
So for argument's sake, if we make the assumption that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 was not written by Paul, we are left with 1 Timothy 2:11-12, which says:
stillness
G2271 ἡσυχία hesuchia (hay-soo-khee'-ah) n.
1. (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language
dominate
G831 αὐθεντέω authenteo (au-then-teh'-o) v.
1. to act of oneself
2. (figuratively) dominate
Perhaps Paul was simply giving rules of conduct for the churches he supervised in a Mediterranean environment, where nowadays women are known to be talkative, animated and demonstrative.
Let a wife learn in stillness in all submission. And a wife I do not transfer to their care to teach, nor to dominate a husband, but to be in stillness. 1 Timothy 2:11-12
stillness
G2271 ἡσυχία hesuchia (hay-soo-khee'-ah) n.
1. (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language
dominate
G831 αὐθεντέω authenteo (au-then-teh'-o) v.
1. to act of oneself
2. (figuratively) dominate
Perhaps Paul was simply giving rules of conduct for the churches he supervised in a Mediterranean environment, where nowadays women are known to be talkative, animated and demonstrative.
L
loyaldisciple
Guest
What I believe is exactly what the Bible says. God appointed man to keep His commandments and to be the teachers within the church. According to scripture, it is very clear that God chose to work through man to pass along His word inside of the church. Anyone that believes anything to the contrary, is disregarding what the Bible states. It is God who is in charge of the church and He has set forth clear rules as to how he wants that to take place.
Notice how 1 Corinthians 14:29-40 flows without verses 34,35. It's all about prophesying decently and in order.
- Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate. (1 Corinthians 14:29)
- And if [something] is revealed to another who is seated, the first must be silent. (1 Corinthians 14:30)
- For you are all able to prophesy in turn, in order that all may learn and all may be encouraged, (1 Corinthians 14:31)
- and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32)
- For God is not [a God of] disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, (1 Corinthians 14:33)
[*]the women must be silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but they must be in submission, just as the law also says. (1 Corinthians 14:34)
[*]But if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:35) - Or has the word of God gone out from you, or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:36)
- If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that [the things] which I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 14:37)
- But if anyone ignores [this], he is ignored. (1 Corinthians 14:38)
- So then, my brothers, desire to prophesy, and do not prevent speaking with tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:39)
- But let all [things] be [done] decently and according to proper procedure. (1 Corinthians 14:40)
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loyaldisciple
Guest
So then, you are oh so animate that "anyone" should be allowed into the church, then you would have no problem if a drunkard was sitting next to you getting sick all over your dress. And no problem if a pedophile was fondling your grand daughter right next to you. And no problem if two homosexuals were having sex in the pews. Now, according to what you have said, then you would be in favor of these people staying for the sermon and all the members having to suffer through the ordeal of dealing with this ungodly situation. That is the stance you have taken with your words because you are a very unreasonable and argumentative woman who rejects common sense. Obviously, these things should never be allowed to happen within a church, yet you have offered them great defense.
Apparently this is how 1 Corinthians 14 appears in about half of the western manuscripts.
- Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate. (1 Corinthians 14:29)
- And if [something] is revealed to another who is seated, the first must be silent. (1 Corinthians 14:30)
- For you are all able to prophesy in turn, in order that all may learn and all may be encouraged, (1 Corinthians 14:31)
- and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32)
- For God is not [a God of] disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, (1 Corinthians 14:33)
- Or has the word of God gone out from you, or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:36)
- If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that [the things] which I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 14:37)
- But if anyone ignores [this], he is ignored. (1 Corinthians 14:38)
- So then, my brothers, desire to prophesy, and do not prevent speaking with tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:39)
- But let all [things] be [done] decently and according to proper procedure. (1 Corinthians 14:40)
[*]the women must be silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but they must be in submission, just as the law also says. (1 Corinthians 14:34)
[*]But if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:35)
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loyaldisciple
Guest
That right there is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. They are exactly the same thing. When one expresses doubt for God's word on this forum, then certainly they are casting it for others to hear. And the casting of that doubt is obviously an expression of it.
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loyaldisciple
Guest
1COR 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1COR 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1COR 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1COR 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
"DECENTLY AND IN ORDER" certainly IS about who gets to attend. How do you expect things to be done in orderly fashion when you allow disorderly people to attend ? You refuse to apply logic to your argument. And it is common sense that dictates the pastor must make these decisions as he is the one God has placed in charge of the gathering.
Asking questions based on bad paraphrases or misrepresentations of my words is silly and adds nothing to the conversation except rabbit trails. Quote me accurately, and respond to what I actually wrote. Don’t put words in my mouth and waste your time responding to those; that’s called a straw man fallacy.
I have already addressed Genesis 3 and your misrepresentation of 1 Corinthians 11.
So don't cast doubt on it!
The issue is never with what the Scripture says. You keep harping on this as though we're saying "black" when Scripture says "red". That is a complete misrepresentation of the issues.
The issue is entirely one of interpretation.
Since you choose to be blunt, you must desire that in response: Get off your straw hobby horse and deal with the actual arguments put forth, or get out of the thread.
I disagree. Expressing doubt is like, "I am not convinced of that. I'd like to research it more." Casting doubt is like, "I am certain that wording comes from a corrupted source." "Casting" has the sense of causing others to doubt; "expressing" doesn't.
For the record, I see far more of the latter from KJV-only proponents than from those who use a variety of translations.
What you believe God's word is teaching you is your opinion as a private interpretation..Like fingerprints evey man has one. There is one infalible teacher as our giude and comforter. In that way we are intsrtcted to call no man teacher of earth.Men unlike Christ a differnt kind of teaching ministry, we do need any human to teach us
The fact of the matter is God is not served by human lips or hands. Why you would desire to make it about male dna?
It is God who makes one different giving them gifts that are not of themselves.
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loyaldisciple
Guest
You can disagree all you want that casting doubt and expressing doubt are not the same thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they are the same. One cannot cast doubt without expressing it. And one cannot express any doubt without at least casting it upon one person. And those in here expressing their doubt of God's word is casting it upon the entire forum of people witnessing that doubt.