Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?

[Bbrdrd]

I have read the letters to the Corinthians many times. This is not just Apostle Paul's opinion despite how much people want to challenge the apostle's authority on this matter. You might notice a pattern in Paul's writings about how men and women ought to behave and what their roles are. The pattern is that Paul always builds precept upon precept and line upon line referencing early Genesis from when God created man and woman, and the fall in the garden, to illustrate the correct view on men and women in the kingdom of God. Paul's writings on this matter are therefore not his opinion, but are in fact the truth being well supported by the earlier canonical scriptures.

As I mentioned, sometimes the rhetorical nature of Paul makes it appear he agrees with something when in fact he has quoted someone to reprove them. This is what I think is happening in 1 Corinthians 14 for two reasons. The first, he mentions that they should be quiet "as the Law says." Paul made clear in Galatians and Romans and throughout his other letters the law is not our master. So why's he citing the law as authoritative?
The second is the verse that immediately follows denying women the right to speak in church. Which is to say "6 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? " This is where Paul's actual statement on the matter seems to lie from my reading. The point being, God revealed Himself to women and men both so there's no reason to believe men have a superior grasp on revelation. In point of fact, Jesus revealed Himself to women before He revealed Himself to men.

 

[JeremiahsCup]

As I mentioned, sometimes the rhetorical nature of Paul makes it appear he agrees with something when in fact he has quoted someone to reprove them. This is what I think is happening in 1 Corinthians 14 for two reasons. The first, he mentions that they should be quiet "as the Law says." Paul made clear in Galatians and Romans and throughout his other letters the law is not our master. So why's he citing the law as authoritative?
The second is the verse that immediately follows denying women the right to speak in church. Which is to say "6 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? " This is where Paul's actual statement on the matter seems to lie from my reading. The point being, God revealed Himself to women and men both so there's no reason to believe men have a superior grasp on revelation. In point of fact, Jesus revealed Himself to women before He revealed Himself to men.

1 Corinthians 14, as well as the other writings of Paul discussed always at this subject, are not Paul's opinions, nor are they lies. This chapter is about the gifts of the spirit, the various offices thereof, and the administration of the churches. Paul writes that women are to be silent and learn, and if they have any question, which is fine for them to want to learn, that they should just ask their husbands at home, because it is shameful for them to speak in the holy places. Paul also notes indeed that not only is this right in the new testament which his writings make up most of, but even the Torah agrees, and he is not wrong, as he explains more in depth on the correct ordering of men and women; married, virgins, and widows, fathers and mothers and sons and daughters, in other verses, often citing Genesis on these matters.

 

[Bbrdrd]

1 Corinthians 14, as well as the other writings of Paul discussed always at this subject, are not Paul's opinions, nor are they lies. This chapter is about the gifts of the spirit, the various offices thereof, and the administration of the churches. Paul writes that women are to be silent and learn, and if they have any question, which is fine for them to want to learn, that they should just ask their husbands at home, because it is shameful for them to speak in the holy places. Paul also notes indeed that not only is this right in the new testament which his writings make up most of, but even the Torah agrees, and he is not wrong, as he explains more in depth on the correct ordering of men and women; married, virgins, and widows, fathers and mothers and sons and daughters, in other verses, often citing Genesis on these matters.

I didn't say they were his opinions or lies, but that the context of the section and what follows bears hallmarks of when Paul quotes people in order to reprove them. Why would Paul, who's written so heavily about how we are not under law, suddenly revert and appeal to the law in his instructions? Unfortunately Greek lacks quotation marks so a lot of the time we have to figure out from context clues when Paul is quoting something or we have to infer because it is out of character. The case with 1 Cor 14, it appears to me, fits with a quote for both reasons and that an apparent reproval of the position follows. Paul has a peculiar writing style that is heavily dependent on the use of rhetoric and rhetorical devices and ignoring those one is bound to misinterpret him.

 

[Dan_473]

Therefore, it stands to reason that when Paul would manage the churches he founded he would fall back on the Pharisaical blueprint concerning many things, including segregation of women

That's an interesting idea, I'd never thought about that before!

 

[Dan_473]

Do they vote? No, that gives them authority over many men.

Good point.

Women voters, women police officers...

If one feels that it's just in church settings that women are not to have authority over men, then that would include Christian School staff and teachers.

 

[Whispered]

I have read the letters to the Corinthians many times. This is not just Apostle Paul's opinion despite how much people want to challenge the apostle's authority on this matter. You might notice a pattern in Paul's writings about how men and women ought to behave and what their roles are. The pattern is that Paul always builds precept upon precept and line upon line referencing early Genesis from when God created man and woman, and the fall in the garden, to illustrate the correct view on men and women in the kingdom of God. Paul's writings on this matter are therefore not his opinion, but are in fact the truth being well supported by the earlier canonical scriptures.

Yet you show no proof of your claim. No presentment of scripture in context.

To do so you would have to consolidate how it came to be that Paul had women pastors in his churches and even praised them for their service along side him in spreading the Gospel.
You'd also have to speculate how Paul would contradict unity in Christ, all one, no male, female, Greek, Jew, Gentile, because we are all one in Christ. If we're all one in Christ then there can be no divisiveness, or division pertaining to sex, when delivering the Good News.
And one last thing. God anoints His ministers and calls them to service. God calls women to serve. Men don't like that and there is no rule that says they have to. However, when God calls a woman to serve woe to the man who dares imply, infer, or state outright, that was a mistake due simply to her sex.

 

[Whispered]

Well that passage, which is in the New Testament I would add, just reconfirms the illustration by example from Genesis and says point blank that man was made in the image of God, woman was made in the image of man. Man is the head of the woman like God is the head of the man. Woman was made for man, not the man for the woman. Woman is to be subject to her husband. This is how God made them and this order is good.

When this order is lost you have high wickedness as we can see and confirm today, despite the current wickedest generations in history trying to obliterate the power and knowledge and goodness of God with their wicked doctrines of rebellion like feminism, much like the Pharisees and Sadducees of old did the same. Yet they cannot change the truth of the Bible. No matter how many lies Satan breathes out, no matter how many women the old dragon tricks, as he did originally, no matter how many of the foolish and evil men that seducing eachother are corrupted by the wickedest women laden with sins, because God will always prevail and really just in the end God's judgement will sit.

I think the judgment will fall upon those who reconfigured Gods words in order to sustain their own bias.
The sixth day: The Book of Genesis chapter 1
God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.

 

[Brandnewday]

Good point.

Women voters, women police officers...

If one feels that it's just in church settings that women are not to have authority over men, then that would include Christian School staff and teachers.

Women bosses, women politicians, women judges. If someone thinks a woman isn't to be placed in authority over a man they haven't paid attention. At least not in America.

 

[Brandnewday]

Lord God said and let us make man in our image and our likeness and give him the dominion over all the creation that Lord God made previously.

So God created man in his own image.

In the image of God created he him.

Male and female made God them.

And after God had created the creation, he saw there was not a man to till the ground.

So God formed the Man, Adam, out of the dust of the earth, and God breathed into his nostrils, and the man became living soul.

And God planted the Garden of Eden and put the man in the Garden. And God gave Man the blessing of the dominion of the creation. And God formed all the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and brought them to the Man to see what man would call them. The name he called them is their name.

But man named all the animals, but a helpmeet for man was not found for him.

So Lord God put the Man to sleep, and took of his flesh his rib and made woman and brought her to man.

Adam said "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother and cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh. Which is the marriage said Lord Jesus.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

This is the original way and what was good in the eyes of Lord God when he made the creation as recorded in Genesis 1 and 2 pertaining to the creations of man, and the creations of woman. Before the fall of the whole of the entirety of the creation in the next chapter due to the lies of the serpent to the woman and the man hearkening to the voice of the woman, but perhaps this post is long enough and it suffice anyone to simply read Genesis 3.

That's right. God made man and woman in his image and likeness. He created them both from himself.

 

[proverbs35]

Man is the image of God, woman is the image of man. Woman was made for man, not man for the woman. This is the correct order of God, when this order is maintained there is peace, when this order is turned on its head, there is hell for everyone.

Yes, sin entered through a man because he disobeyed God and hearkened to the voice of his wife whom was deceived by the ancient dragon's three lies, but the man was not deceived. This is very important to understand. Let's not lose sight of whom is really to fault here, the dragon named Satan.

They were not created as equals, they were as counterparts with God-defined roles and it was good! Man was made to be head over the wife, and both were made to have dominion over the earth and the animals.

So one can see how in the Garden how this got totally thrown out of whack. Eve should have never listened to the animal, Satan, whom she was put in authority over. This failing anyways, man should have never listened to the woman whom he was put in authority over. They should have listened to God. Instead the woman listened to the dragon and the man listened to the woman and this flipped the order that God set forth totally around, and now every single thing, and even the earth and heavens themselves, have to die.

Now if the wicked men will stop conforming to the authority of women, and thereby making themselves servants of the kingdom of Satan, and will instead let Christ be his head then God will forgive him and save him for life eternal. Now if wicked women will repent of their evil and submit to the authority of their husbands and their fathers and let them be their heads, rather than be deceived into being under the authority of the dragon and a prey to his every lie, then shall God save her for life eternal. But there will be no forgiveness for Satan, and all his children in his pathetically backwards kingdom will be thrown into the lake of fire with him to burn in torment forever and ever, in the name of Jesus, amen.

The serpent deceived Eve. Adam listened to Eve and ate from the tree that God told him not to eat from. Adam should not have listened to Eve. Adam knew better.
Eve should not have listened to the serpent.

However, that does not mean or prove that all wives (or wives in general) are deceived and incapable of giving their husbands wise advice and faithful instruction.

A wife of noble character speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. Proverbs 31:26

We have a passage where God told a husband - Abraham to listen to and obey his wife - Sarah. God could have given the instruction directly to the husband- Abraham, but God chose to have the husband - Abraham listen to and obey his
wife - Sarah instead.

But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. LISTEN to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Gen 21:12).

One of the definitions for LISTEN (shama 8085 in the Old testament) is "to obey, be obedient." It is the same Hebrew word for listen found in Genesis 3:17.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8085.htm

Here are some articles about men who could have benefited from listening to wisdom from their wives.

Mayor Eric Richardson pled guilty to bank fraud and resigned. He was sentenced to prison time and ordered to pay restitution. He publicly admitted that his wife told him not to get involved in loan fraud. By his own admission, he should have listened to his wife.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article...ls-mayor-says-he-should-have-heeded-wife.html

A businessman died in fall from a slippery roof as he took Christmas decorations down after ignoring his wife's pleas to leave them.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ery-roof-took-Christmas-decorations-down.html

Lee Klein pled guilty. Lee Klein, a telemarketer with a background in computers, said his wife warned him not to get caught up in the mob. He admitted to helping fabricate fake checks and using computer databases to identify possible extortion victims. “I met the wrong person at the wrong time. I should have listened to my wife,” Klein said.

https://nypost.com/2009/10/14/6-fla-members-of-bonanno-crime-family-admit-guilt/

Gregory Earls defrauded his investors. Ken Jones gave Earls nearly $300,000, most of his retirement savings. Earls promised to return the money within two months but began avoiding his calls, he said. "I should have listened to my wife."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54820-2005Feb25.html

Mother-of-three wins court ruling to stop her husband from wasting any more of their life savings after he spent $177,000 on strippers in four months. This man should have listened to his wife.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-spent-177-000-superannuation-strippers.html

Tractor driver accused of leading police on chase through downtown Denver warns against going off mental health medications. “I should have gone back on it,” Busch said. “I should have listened to my wife. She said I was becoming a different person off it. The medication worked, and I was able to function in society."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.denverpost.com/2018/07/31/tractor-driver-police-chase-denver/amp/

The white homeowner who complained of ‘hoodlums’ was found guilty of murdering an unarmed black man. “I should have listened to my wife,” Chad Copley said.“She told me not to go out there, not to make a big deal of it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-murdering-unarmed-black-man/?outputType=amp

Iowa Governor Terry Branstad acknowledged he made an error in judgment after going to work sick and having to be taken to the hospital by ambulance. The mayor said his wife warned him not to go to work that day, since he had been ill the previous weekend. “I should have listened to my wife,”

http://whotv.com/2015/02/02/iowa-governor-i-should-have-listened-to-my-wife/

I Should Have Listened to My Wife: A Story About Procrastination
https://thecpt.org/2014/08/01/i-should-have-listened-to-my-wife-a-story-about-procrastination/

Man fell on the floor at home. He hollered from his wife's help. She told him she was going to call 911. He told her not to and just wanted her to help him to the couch. She called 911 anyway. Doctors praised the wife for recognizing her husband's symptoms as stroke. Wife's fast action saved him from paralysis.

https://katu.com/news/local/massive...an-wifes-fast-action-saves-him-from-paralysis

For 20 years, Mike McCord suffered from heartburn almost every day. Over the years, his wife asked him to go to the doctor about it, but he would reassure her saying: ‘Don’t worry, you can’t die of heartburn.’ In fact, he was wrong. By the time he did seek medical advice, qhe had advanced oesophageal cancer brought on by the heartburn he’d dismissed. He died at 47, leaving behind his wife and their two children.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...artburn-Mike-told-wife--tragically-wrong.html

In the Bible, Nabal shows us what can happen when a man is foolish, unapproachable and unwilling to listen to wisdom from his wife.
I Samuel chapter 25

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+25&version=NIV&interface=amp

Wives should submit to their husbands. Husbands should listen to wisdom from their wives. Both spouses should be cultivating wisdom.

 

[JesusLives]

Everyone in this thread has been taught by a woman and yes, even on Sunday. You listened to her too. Go ahead and argue all you want with me.

Women are not stupid, door mats for men to walk on or rule over. If that had been the case then God would have taken a toe bone to make one. He did not... He took a rib from Adams side as the woman was suppose to be his mate and helper to walk by his side and the two were to become one.

Yes, Eve was deceived by satan and she sinned, but Adam knew full well what he was doing so which is the greater sin? The sin is both equal as they both sinned and they were then doomed to death as God had said....

But let's get back to everyone being taught by a woman on Sunday and every other day of the week shall we... This woman also taught most of you about God.... the horrors......don't pass out on me now... she even taught some of you about salvation..... don't get weak in the knees.... and to top it all off you all listened to her as she taught you.... Well maybe except some hard heads out there in CC land.....

The one thing that we all have in common and none of us can deny is MOTHERS.... Yes, we all have them Dad is usually off to work and MOM does most of the child raising and teaches you how to do things like brush your teeth, comb your hair and reads stories to you oh yes, and maybe even some of that teaching was Bible stories and she taught and told you what to do even on SUNDAYS...

So all you folks need to remember that God gave authority to women to teach boys and girls who would grow up to be men and women about Him and His good news even on Sundays and your Mom might even have schooled you on Sundays...

I realize we didn't all come from Christian homes and backgrounds but those that did know what I am talking about.... You're welcome.

Consider yourselves taught by a woman on this matter.... The end.....

 

[TheIndianGirl]

People supportive of women in ministry point to, 1) spiritual gifts, 2) prayer of women pastors/fulfilling a call, 3) that even Paul, Jesus, single diciples won't meet criteria for church leadership based on criteria in 1 Tim 3; what Paul says about women in church applies to addressed church only, and 4) Deborah, Priscilla, Phoebe (deacon), and many more women, in leadership or teaching roles

 

[Diakonos]

I provided the simple answer and a 289 pg document responding to all known objections/questions about this subject near the beginning of this thread in comment #13.

Preaching isn't the issue, Its "teaching and exercising authority over men". Women can preach to anyone they want. They can also teach children and other women. They just can't teach men. It's not complicated.

On the subject of Eldership....Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church

 

[Bbrdrd]

I provided the simple answer and a 289 pg document responding to all known objections/questions about this subject near the beginning of this thread in comment #13.

Preaching isn't the issue, Its "teaching and exercising authority over men". Women can preach to anyone they want. They can also teach children and other women. They just can't teach men. It's not complicated.

On the subject of Eldership....Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church

You're right its simple, but you're breaking in the wrong direction. Paul also wrote that slaves are to obey their masters, but most people now recognize that slavery was not something God endorses. There's something else going on with the idea of women submitting to men that you're missing, but its something you've got to see on your own and no amount of arguing will get you there.

 

[tourist]

Everyone in this thread has been taught by a woman and yes, even on Sunday. You listened to her too. Go ahead and argue all you want with me.

Women are not stupid, door mats for men to walk on or rule over. If that had been the case then God would have taken a toe bone to make one. He did not... He took a rib from Adams side as the woman was suppose to be his mate and helper to walk by his side and the two were to become one.

Yes, Eve was deceived by satan and she sinned, but Adam knew full well what he was doing so which is the greater sin? The sin is both equal as they both sinned and they were then doomed to death as God had said....

But let's get back to everyone being taught by a woman on Sunday and every other day of the week shall we... This woman also taught most of you about God.... the horrors......don't pass out on me now... she even taught some of you about salvation..... don't get weak in the knees.... and to top it all off you all listened to her as she taught you.... Well maybe except some hard heads out there in CC land.....

The one thing that we all have in common and none of us can deny is MOTHERS.... Yes, we all have them Dad is usually off to work and MOM does most of the child raising and teaches you how to do things like brush your teeth, comb your hair and reads stories to you oh yes, and maybe even some of that teaching was Bible stories and she taught and told you what to do even on SUNDAYS...

So all you folks need to remember that God gave authority to women to teach boys and girls who would grow up to be men and women about Him and His good news even on Sundays and your Mom might even have schooled you on Sundays...

I realize we didn't all come from Christian homes and backgrounds but those that did know what I am talking about.... You're welcome.

Consider yourselves taught by a woman on this matter.... The end.....

I respect all good mothers and hold them in the highest esteem. God loves mothers too. The first recorded miracle of Jesus, turning water into wine, was done at the request of His mom even though it was not yet His time. Dying on the cross He told her that John was gong to take care of her now and she should consider him her son. Very touching scene.

 

[Dino246]

Preaching isn't the issue, Its "teaching and exercising authority over men". Women can preach to anyone they want. They can also teach children and other women. They just can't teach men. It's not complicated.

Authentein doesn't mean "exercise authority". Had Paul meant "authority" in the normal sense, he would have used the word, "exousia" as he did in other passages. He didn't. Yet most people accept that's what he meant and don't look further. There is an argument from the cultural context in Ephesus that makes very good sense of this passage, connects it to the Genesis passage, and doesn't exclude women from any role.

On the subject of Eldership....Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church

You're drawing conclusions from separate passages, which generally is good practice, but you're ignoring other passages, which is not good.

 

[Diakonos]

Authentein doesn't mean "exercise authority"

 

[Dino246]

View attachment 214088

Dig deeper.

 

[Diakonos]

Exousia isn't the only word for "authority" in the New Testament.

Here are some more examples:

 

[Diakonos]

The definitions above are not only etymologically correct, but they are also consistent will Paul’s reason for giving us this pattern to follow (which we are commanded to follow- 1 Cor 11:1)

This is an age-old principle. God gave man authority over all things that breathe. Adam’s leadership role (headship and covering) over Eve was God’s design for the family dynamic, because it’s a reflection of the Trinity.
Just as all members of the Trinity are equal in value and essence, there is submission even within the Godhead. They have different roles.

Subordinate does not mean lesser than.

God gave Eve to Adam to help him fulfill his role, not to usurp his role. Women was made to compliment man, not replace him.