Attack of the Judaizers

[Elin]

I gotta admit, Elin, you and LT got a chuckle out of me on this.

No one said I was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[Elin]

I warned ya 'bout staying away from mud puddles with your oysters.

Okay, I think maybe I get this one. . .

 

[danschance]

You know what is odd? There is not a warning to those who claim to be justified by grace, but there sure is a warning to those who claim to be justified by OT laws...a vary serious warning at that.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal 5:4

 

[Hizikyah]

Jesus is not talking about reading the scroll down at the synagogue.

He was talking about the teachers of the law and the Pharisees as the authorized successors of Moses
as teachers of the law, which is why he said "So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."
(Mt 23:2)


No, he commanded them to obey the teaching of the Pharisees and teachers of the law because they were the authorized successors of Moses as teachers.

He was upholding their authority as teachers of the law.

Every translation reads as such, as all Greek texts read this way:

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

However Yahweh has left us truth!

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."



Takanot: reforms or enactments that (falsely) "change or add" to Yahweh's Law.

Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.

Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud.

THIS IS THE BURDEN!

 

[psychomom]

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, (1242) which was established upon better promises.
7 For if the first has been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 But God found fault with the people and said:

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers. . .
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. . ."

Then in vv. 10-12 follows from Jeremiah 31:32-34 the remainder of the promise of a new covenant.

13 By calling this "new," he has made the first obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:1-4 (KJV)

1 So then the first also had ordinances of service and an earthly sanctuary (Temple).
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first (room) wherein was the candlestick, and the table and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covednant;


Staggering. . .absolutely staggering!

You would have us believe that after stating the subject of "covenant" in v. 6,
the remainder of the thought in v. 7 references the "man made temple."

And you would have us believe that after all that discussion of "covenant" from Jer 31:31-32 in vv. 8-12,
his conclusion in v. 13 references the "man made temple"?

"Temple" does not enter the discussion until Heb 9:1, as an appointment to the covenant.

I am speechless. . .such abuse of the plain NT word of God. . .and all for the sake of Judaizing.


Someone else, please take it from here.

And pass the vapors. . .I'm laid out flat on the floor.

< Run, Forest, run! >

if it helps...the Greek word for covenant in Heb. 8:6 is diathékés
from (according to Strong's)
diathéké: testament, will, covenant
Original Word: διαθήκη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: diathéké
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ath-ay'-kay)
Short Definition: a covenant, will, testament
Definition: (a) a covenant between two parties, (b) (the ordinary, everyday sense [found a countless number of times in papyri]) a will, testament.

Helps Word Studies:
1242 diathḗkē (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly," intensifying 5087 /títhēmi, "place, set") –
properly, a set-agreement having complete terms determined by the initiating party, which also are fully affirmed by the one entering the agreement.

This word is repeated in Heb. 8:8, 8:9, and 8:10.

Gotta go hunt out my smellin' salts for you.

 

[Grandpa]

Till ALL be fulfilled. When did Christ return, I must have missed it.

The Law is fulfilled when it brings a person to their saviour Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the aspects of the Law, but the Law hasn't drawn everyone to Christ yet. There are still some stuck in unbelief. Only in drawing everyone to Christ has all yet to be fulfilled. Christ has done everything that is required to bring salvation to His people. The only thing left is for you is to believe in Him and test Him.

Galatians 3:24-26
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

You won't come to Him if you think your best law keeping is good enough. You must know that you are a sinner before God and that your only chance is to be saved from your condition. You can't save yourself or perfectly keep the law.

You don't even know what your true spiritual condition is until He Saves you and opens your eyes to it.

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP] 28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[phil112]

..................You don't even know what your true spiritual condition is until He Saves you and opens your eyes to it.

A mis-statement. When your eyes are opened to your sinful state then you desire to change that. The spirit moves you to seek God by revealing to you where you are.
Thus, when that is shown to you, you seek salvation.

You don't get saved first.

 

[Elin]

Jesus is not talking about reading the scroll down at the synagogue.

He was talking about the teachers of the law and the Pharisees as the authorized successors of Moses
as teachers of the law, which is why he said "So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."
(Mt 23:2)


No, he commanded them to obey the teaching of the Pharisees and teachers of the law because they were the authorized successors of Moses as teachers.

He was upholding their authority as teachers of the law.

Every translation reads as such, as all Greek texts read this way:

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.
But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works:
for they say, and do not."

However Yahweh has left us truth!

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."

The NT was written in Greek.

I note the alteration in the Jewish translation to bring it into agreement with Judaizing (Gal 2:14),
by changing "they" (teachers) to "he" (Moses).

That explains a lot about your misunderstanding of the NT writers.

 

[Grandpa]

A mis-statement. When your eyes are opened to your sinful state then you desire to change that. The spirit moves you to seek God by revealing to you where you are.
Thus, when that is shown to you, you seek salvation.

You don't get saved first.

LOL.

Ok.

We see things differently. I see every step that I have taken towards Salvation to have been caused by Him. I don't see any power or goodness or wisdom in myself to have been able to have made all those great decisions to cause Him to save me.

At first I thought I was the cause and that I was wise and good. But I was very dumb and wrong most of that time. No one as dumb and wrong as me should have been able to make all those great choices right at the right times to cause God to save them. Maybe I just got lucky...LOL nope, don't believe in that anymore...

 

[Elin]

So, the statement that ALL the Law hangs on these two Commandments means they slipped and fell off?

Previously asked and answered.

Please take care of your unfinished business before bringing other business to the table.

There are previously asked on the table which you have not yet answered, here, here and here.

Mt 5:18 - "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter,
not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law
until everything is accomplished (in Christ)."

Lk 21:33 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see that as long as heaven and earth exist,
there will be no passing away of the law unless it is fulfilled.

Those which have been all accomplished (fulfilled) in Christ are passed away.

The Levitical laws have been fulfilled in Christ and, therefore, are set aside (Heb 7:12, 18-19).

The promise of Ps 110:4 has been fulfilled in Christ and, therefore, the Levitical priesthood has been set aside (Heb 7:11-12, 17, 21).

The new covenant has been fulfilled in Christ (inaugurated--Lk 22:20), therefore, the old (Siniatic) covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Those which have not (Mt 22:37-40) remain.

It's not complicated. It is simply a matter of belief in the NT word of God.

Till ALL be fulfilled. When did Christ return, I must have missed it.

Please take care of your unfinished business before bringing other business to the table.

There are previously asked on the table which you have not yet answered, here, here and here.

 

[Josh321]

lol i wonder if some of you feel convicted or if it's just comon to reject some things, some things so clear it's mind blowing but you get offended and be like WOW why is this here.... oh my gosh.. i can keep rejecting it but it's in the bible, what should i do... maybe if i just choose to not past that point of the bible i won't think about what it said that way i can keep my belief, i wonder if some of you do that

 

[phil112]

LOL.

Ok.

We see things differently. I see every step that I have taken towards Salvation to have been caused by Him. I don't see any power or goodness or wisdom in myself to have been able to have made all those great decisions to cause Him to save me.

At first I thought I was the cause and that I was wise and good. But I was very dumb and wrong most of that time. No one as dumb and wrong as me should have been able to make all those great choices right at the right times to cause God to save them. Maybe I just got lucky...LOL nope, don't believe in that anymore...

My understanding, what I have been told, from other's experience, and my personal experience is this: The spirit will convict you and the relief from that burden is salvation. You know in your heart because of the intervention of the Spirit of God, that your spiritual condition is in bad, bad, shape. I have never talked to anyone, or heard of anyone, that got saved first and then found out their spiritual condition.

 

[psychomom]

LOL.

Ok.

We see things differently. I see every step that I have taken towards Salvation to have been caused by Him. I don't see any power or goodness or wisdom in myself to have been able to have made all those great decisions to cause Him to save me.

At first I thought I was the cause and that I was wise and good. But I was very dumb and wrong most of that time. No one as dumb and wrong as me should have been able to make all those great choices right at the right times to cause God to save them. Maybe I just got lucky...LOL nope, don't believe in that anymore...

Grandpa. dear and humble Gospel preacher...I love when you post here.

 

[BradC]

Before we were saved God uses our situations and the details of life to reveal to us, in a loving way, the condition of our heart and the emptiness of our soul. He finds us in this state and begins to draw us with his lovingkindness to win us to himself. He draws out our heart to seek him and as he does he calls us to come unto him to find rest for our soul and peace for the aching in our heart that is void of him. Then we hear the gospel and find the answer in Jesus Christ and him crucified. We accept this call and invitation for salvation, forgiveness and complete cleansing that is available to us by faith in Christ. In a measure we have been able to see our wretchedness but his love and mercy is much greater and we are turned unto him and freely receive what is offered by grace.

His love begins to heal our broken heart and peace immediately comes in to take over and for the first time we have real joy that is unspeakable and it overflows and fills us up. We never before experienced the love of God in such a way until the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and reveals Christ in us. We have hope for the first time and we are not ashamed. All of this reveals how God's goodness leads us and has granted us repentance which took place in our life beginning with the love of God drawing us and turning us to win us to himself through His Son by mercy and grace.

Then we begin to grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and come to a place where we, like Paul, say, Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of sin and death and then we see Christ and what he has done for us and thank God that there is no condemnation. We ask God to remove certain things in our life that continually bother us in the flesh but God says my grace is sufficient for you. As we walk by faith we realize how weak we are, how that his death must work in us and how we must depend upon his grace in all things. We realize that without him we can do nothing, so we become totally dependent upon him. We come to understand and begin to learn what it means to be crucified with Christ, nevertheless we are living, yet not us but Christ lives in us, and the life we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God who loves us and gave himself for us.

 

[vic1980]

Those that forsake God law make belivers vex in spirit as Lot & King David

Psalms 119:52-53 I have remembered Your ordinances from of old, O LORD, And comfort myself. 53Burning indignation has seized me because of the wicked, Who forsake Your law.

Reminder also on King David

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Now onto God people true Jew,Christians.

Romans 2:29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God.

And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

God Bless

when did God Change ???

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


God Bless

 

[Grandpa]

My understanding, what I have been told, from other's experience, and my personal experience is this: The spirit will convict you and the relief from that burden is salvation. You know in your heart because of the intervention of the Spirit of God, that your spiritual condition is in bad, bad, shape. I have never talked to anyone, or heard of anyone, that got saved first and then found out their spiritual condition.

When I look back at my life I see the Lord drawing me from a very early age. He began saving me from about the time my memories started. He relentlessly pursued me my whole life. I don't consider myself as having been saved in a single moment but many steps over a long time having been all part of my particular salvation. And none of those steps did I take by myself but was led through all of them.

I suppose I see salvation differently than you do. I didn't grow up in church so I guess I was slower to realize what was happening. I wasn't waiting for one event but trying to figure out the whole process of what was going on. By the time I really started to understand it was the Holy Spirit that was showing and teaching me. I consider the Holy Spirit showing and teaching someone who has already been saved not one that is still waiting for an event.

I guess you have to ask yourself what is the process of Salvation and when are you saved. Are you saved when the Lord first starts drawing you or are you not saved until you realize it yourself? Either way, I myself didn't truly understand my spiritual condition until the Lord saved me. I knew I had made mistakes and I knew I needed forgiveness but I didn't know that I was in a dark pit, stuck in the miry clay at the bottom of that dark pit, until the Light came in and illuminated everything with His Presence. Only by the Light did I even begin to understand what had truly happened and my crucial need for my Saviour.

So I guess I get to be the first one you've heard of that got saved first and by being saved realized my spiritual condition.

I was kind of like the prodigal son where I just wanted temporary relief from the mess I had made. I didn't realize that what I was asking for was going to lead to such a great Salvation. He truly blesses us more than we can think or ask.

 

[phil112]

Either you are not saying this how you need to, or you don't understand the significance of having that order reversed, as you do.
Why would anyone want to get saved, if they didn't think they were in error and hell-bound? That makes no sense, and it isn't how it works. Why would you call a lifeguard at the swimming pool? Because you're drowning. Why would you call the police? Because you know you need their intervention. There is absolutely nothing in the world that is help, if that help isn't needed.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You cannot be saved unless you call upon the Lord. Why call on Him if you don't need Him? You wouldn't. To call on the name of the Lord, it must first be pointed out to you that that is how you change your path from hell to heaven.
You must first know you need God to have a desire to call on Him. It really isn't that hard to understand.

 

[danschance]

Here is a new verse that is very devastating to the cause of the Hebrew roots Movement.

BUT NOW WE ARE RELEASED FROM THE LAW, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6

Here Paul, the one the Hebrew Rooters claim was "torah observant" is stating very clearly he does not follow the Mosaic law. There is no way to escape this verse other than to be spiritually blinded by the enemy. Paul states this so a 6th grader can see that he is not bound to the mosaic laws.

 

[Grandpa]

Either you are not saying this how you need to, or you don't understand the significance of having that order reversed, as you do.
Why would anyone want to get saved, if they didn't think they were in error and hell-bound? That makes no sense, and it isn't how it works. Why would you call a lifeguard at the swimming pool? Because you're drowning. Why would you call the police? Because you know you need their intervention. There is absolutely nothing in the world that is help, if that help isn't needed.


You cannot be saved unless you call upon the Lord. Why call on Him if you don't need Him? You wouldn't. To call on the name of the Lord, it must first be pointed out to you that that is how you change your path from hell to heaven.
You must first know you need God to have a desire to call on Him. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Significance? Of course I see the significance.

I was saved by the Power of God given as His Gift.

Not because of my goodness, obedience, wisdom, or good choices.

I didn't cause God to act. God acts because of His Goodness.

I called on Him not for His Great Salvation but for pain relief. I just wanted the pain to go away. If I would have known in advance what I was asking for would have resulted in Complete Salvation I wouldn't have been able to ask for it. I wouldn't have felt deserving of it. I would have felt like I would have had to do something to earn it.

Most people think that same way. That they have to do something to earn His Approval and Love. The secret is He already loves us before we start trying to earn it.

 

[phil112]

Significance? Of course I see the significance.

I was saved by the Power of God given as His Gift......................

I am not disagreeing with you at all in a doctrinal sense here. You said that after you got saved you realized what your spiritual state was.
How can that be? It has to happen first. How in the world did you get saved without knowing you needed to be? That is like going shopping and buying stuff because you wanted it, not needed it.
You can't do salvation like that. You can't get salvation because you want it, you get it because you need it.

If you didn't need it, it wouldn't be available would it? God isn't going to give you something you already have, is He?