Bark of the Least

[Timeline]

Heh what is your question even? I just see assertions based off Adamius Clarkus.

The Water of Life is Life eternal. Therefore we seek after Jesus that He may lead us to the waters of life. Aye the Waters of Life been flowing from Pentecost indeed, and even before it from the birth of Jesus and even before that from the time God made Life. When Death is defeated only those in the Kingdom of God shall be lead to the waters of life by Jesus. So we wait for the day of Resurrection with the hope that Jesus will lead us to the waters of life indeed.

And indeed, we have covered enough for tonight, we shall pick up our discussion tomorrow and for many days I perceive lol. Have a good night indeed brother.

1Timothy
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

1Thessalonians
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; [SUP]5[/SUP]for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; [SUP]6 [/SUP]so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]10 [/SUP]who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

Paul says that we shouldn't sleep. I don't believe that he actually expects us not to sleep. This verse actually echoes Ecclesiastes 8:16 ([SUP]16 [/SUP]When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should never sleep day or night), [SUP]17 [/SUP]and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, “I know,” he cannot discover.) which I find it funny (not haha) that the JW take Ecclesiastes literally (I wonder if they have ever thrown their bread on the water to see if it comes back). Anyway, back to what I was saying, Paul says that they/we are sons of the day. Which is in Revelation 21:23-25 ([SUP]22 [/SUP]I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. [SUP]25 [/SUP]In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.) It also mentions here, as I think we've talked about, that there will be no temple which is covered in John 2:19-20 [SUP]19 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” [SUP]21 [/SUP]But He was speaking of the temple of His body. and in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ([SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.[SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness”; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, [SUP]22 [/SUP]whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.) and in Romans 12 ([SUP]4 [/SUP]For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so we, who are many, are one body in Christ (aka The Temple), and individually members one of another.)

 

[Timeline]

Sorry about the length of my last post. Maybe this one will make up for it.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

 

[Timeline]

I get the joke, but not the reasoning. Was this just random? I mean other than the fact that it has a dog in it.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

I was just goofing around with Wallace and Gromit pic going to the CATs show TM - I was the same when my wife wanted to drag me to that show.

Heh what is your question even?

My question Gisius is here in blue:

(Luke 12:32 KJV) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The kingdom was given to them when the Jewish polity was removed and cast out of the kingdom:

(Mat 21:43 KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

If this did not occur within the 1st century AD you need to explain when this will happen.

(Gal 4:30 KJV) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

(Gal 4:31 KJV) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

To answer your question Larryus:

Yes, the Kingdom of God was made open to all the peoples of the world starting in the 1st Century AD due to grace of the Lord Christ Jesus.

However, seeing your pun on Mark of the Beast (and I forgot to mention I enjoy this pun a lot) and your stance on preterism indicates you believe that the popularly known "end times" or the prophecies of Revelation are all ready fulfilled in the 1st Century AD, this is not so, but shall come to pass shortly. Jesus shall come quickly so watch therefore.

 

[RickyZ]

Larry, do you believe we are currently living under the symbolic millenial riegn of Christ?

Yes or no will do, thanks.

 

[Kerry]

Yes unfortunately he does.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes unfortunately he does.

You don't believe Christ reigns, right now?

 

[RickyZ]

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could equate the current world condition - including it's relentless march towards apostacy - to it's being under Christ's reign. Please explain how God's reign creates a Godless world.

 

[Timeline]

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could equate the current world condition - including it's relentless march towards apostacy - to it's being under Christ's reign. Please explain how God's reign creates a Godless world.

Let me ask you this. Do you think God ever lost control? By that I mean, Do you think Satan overpowered God? Do you think that God didn't intend for the OT to turn out the way it did? Do you believe that Jesus was, at any point, not the plan?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Larry, do you believe we are currently living under the symbolic millenial riegn of Christ?

Yes or no will do, thanks.

It's more complicated than yes or no - the "millennial" reign of the saints ended in 70AD.

Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father as per Acts:

(Acts 2:30 KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

(Acts 2:32 KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

(Acts 2:33 KJV) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The futurist problem is expecting that the throne will be physically on earth.

Believers in Christ since Pentecost have been seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

(Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

(Eph 2:7 KJV) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The futurist believes that the church will go *poof" in some sort of rapture and that "Israel" will be the focus of God.

This is bogus "theology" the church of Christ on earth never ends:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone could equate the current world condition - including it's relentless march towards apostacy - to it's being under Christ's reign. Please explain how God's reign creates a Godless world

This is an erroneous assumption based on a fawlty futurist "theology" which ignores plain statements in the bible.

(Rev 22:11 KJV) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[Timeline]

I am a little confused about the "millennium" myself. I tend to think it was actually a thousand years, but really don't understand how and why it would be 1,000 years. I do understand that Revelation didn't say anything about a reign on earth, but it seems that Jesus would continue to rule. Why only 1,000? When did it occur? This is one aspect of Revelation that I do struggle with.

Apparently the Church of Christ takes the amillennialism (sp?) approach. I haven't accepted that.

I don't see any evidence of the Rapture as it is commonly taught. The only thing that is even close, in my opinion, is when Jesus says one will be taken and one will be left. But I think it is a stretch to base our understanding of the "Rapture" (again, as it is commonly taught) on these verses.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

I am a little confused about the "millennium" myself. I tend to think it was actually a thousand years, but really don't understand how and why it would be 1,000 years. I do understand that Revelation didn't say anything about a reign on earth, but it seems that Jesus would continue to rule. Why only 1,000? When did it occur? This is one aspect of Revelation that I do struggle with.

When did it occur?

First what has to be correctly identified is just who is the whor.e of Babylon - it's not the catholic church, the EU or the WCC.

The scriptures themselves all point to it being 1st century AD Jerusalem who were guilty of the blood of the prophets.

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus stated that vengeance for the blood would fall on the generation that heard him:

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

(Rev 19:2 KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

The book of revelations is written in a series of visions "and I saw" repeated over with addition details.

It appears at first "sight" that the whor.e is judged and then the "millennium" starts - but if the whor.e was judged in 70AD then the we need to approach our understanding of just what the "millennium" means and when it occurred.

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

We are further told that John sees a river of life flowing - this started at Pentecost, unless one can show there are two rivers of life one back at Pentecost and one in the "future" there can be no mistaking that the Zechariah prophecy is repeated by John.

(Zec 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

We know that the river of life is the holy spirit because Jesus and John tells us so and this happened in the 1st century AD:

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(John 7:39 KJV) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

(John 20:22 KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

(Zec 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The above language is in the poetical apocalyptic style - we know that the apostles took the gospel through the land and they took the river of life with them wherever they went.

Now the woody literalist demands a literal split mountain but will ignore the fact that Zec 14:8 was fulfilled during the time of the apostles.

 

[RickyZ]

One thing I've noticed about Preterists is that they are very intelligent, very well educated, and have absolutely no clue about the spiritual realm. They are lawyers - making long convoluted arguments to argue very simple concepts. One thing I've noticed about lawyers is that even tho in court we are sworn to present "the truth, the whole truth", that's not what they seek. They elicit little snippets of truth that they then try to weave into whatever half baked idea they desire to make sound plausible. Anyone can chain individual scriptures together to say just about anything they want them to say. And preterists are experts at that.

Discernment is the key. That's a spiritual thing, not a mindset. Preterists are all mindset. And horribly, horribly deceived.

No offense intended.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

(Mat 24:14 KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Unless the apostles at best misunderstood Jesus, or worst were liars, and uninspired false prophets we see that the gospel was preached to the world and every creature under heaven:

(Col 1:23 KJV) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

(Rom 10:18 KJV) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

1 Pet 4:17 (Youngs Literal) because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

The apostles were claiming the end of the age was upon THEM - that the judge stood at the door, that the gospel had been preached as Jesus said "in all the world" and then the end would come - was Jesus wrong, were the apostles confused? - I don't think so.

Futurist "theologians" have to misread, misinterpret, bend over backwards, make words mean nothing and massage the text to make their "theology" work.

Any theology that is not able to correctly define the whor.e of Babylon as 1st century apostate Jerusalem/Israel is going to be looking in futility for a future fulfillment of that in the book of revelation.

Jesus told his apostles (HIS APOSTLES) not readers of the bible 1980 + years later that they would see the signs and know it is at the door:

(Mat 24:33 KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And we know which generation Jesus was speaking to when he made the above statement not some future generation because he told his hearers that some of them would not die before they saw it:

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

James claimed it was "at the door":

(James 5:9 KJV) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Amazing how James is echoing Jesus' words - "know that it is near, even at the doors"

Yet another claim that the futurologists make is that Jesus did not know when the end would come:

(Mark 13:32 KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

This seems like a valid argument, but then they ignore the fact in the book of revelation that the Father is revealing the time to Jesus "which God gave unto him" and Jesus is revealing it to John.

And of course Jesus is saying he did not know the exact time while still in his flesh prior to his crucifixion.

To claim that Jesus would not know after his death is bogus. Not only that to claim the apostles could not know the time is to deny what Jesus told them:

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.....

All things would most certainly include the timing of the end of the age and Christ's parousia - how do we know that? - it's written all over the NT for those with eyes that don't peer at the pages through the lens of futurist "theology".

Here is God the father revealing the time to Jesus and then to John:

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

A more literal rendition from Strongs:

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John.

Now these futurologists love to play with that word "quickly" or "swiftly" as if it means when the revelation was about to happen some time in the future it will be happening quickly or swiftly rather than soon after John wrote.

But this type of "reasoning" to justify their fawlty "theology" is smoke and mirrors as we see that John states the time is at hand:

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

In Young's literal:

Rev 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

 

[john832]

"However as Jesus said not even the smallest letter has passed off the Law until everything is accomplished."

If that's true you'd better be keeping all of the 613 laws of the OT and being donning a tallit and tefillin Froin.

OK explain to me why Luke 16:17 is a lie...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[RickyZ]

(Mat 24:14 KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Unless the apostles at best misunderstood Jesus, or worst were liars, and uninspired false prophets we see that the gospel was preached to the world and every creature under heaven:

(Col 1:23 KJV) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

(Rom 10:18 KJV) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

1 Pet 4:17 (Youngs Literal) because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?

(Phil 4:5 KJV) Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

The apostles were claiming the end of the age was upon THEM - that the judge stood at the door, that the gospel had been preached as Jesus said "in all the world" and then the end would come - was Jesus wrong, were the apostles confused? - I don't think so.

Futurist "theologians" have to misread, misinterpret, bend over backwards, make words mean nothing and massage the text to make their "theology" work.

Any theology that is not able to correctly define the whor.e of Babylon as 1st century apostate Jerusalem/Israel is going to be looking in futility for a future fulfillment of that in the book of revelation.

Jesus told his apostles (HIS APOSTLES) not readers of the bible 1980 + years later that they would see the signs and know it is at the door:

(Mat 24:33 KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And we know which generation Jesus was speaking to when he made the above statement not some future generation because he told his hearers that some of them would not die before they saw it:

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

James claimed it was "at the door":

(James 5:9 KJV) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Amazing how James is echoing Jesus' words - "know that it is near, even at the doors"

Yet another claim that the futurologists make is that Jesus did not know when the end would come:

(Mark 13:32 KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

This seems like a valid argument, but then they ignore the fact in the book of revelation that the Father is revealing the time to Jesus "which God gave unto him" and Jesus is revealing it to John.

And of course Jesus is saying he did not know the exact time while still in his flesh prior to his crucifixion.

To claim that Jesus would not know after his death is bogus. Not only that to claim the apostles could not know the time is to deny what Jesus told them:

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.....

All things would most certainly include the timing of the end of the age and Christ's parousia - how do we know that? - it's written all over the NT for those with eyes that don't peer at the pages through the lens of futurist "theology".

Here is God the father revealing the time to Jesus and then to John:

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

A more literal rendition from Strongs:

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John.

Now these futurologists love to play with that word "quickly" or "swiftly" as if it means when the revelation was about to happen some time in the future it will be happening quickly or swiftly rather than soon after John wrote.

But this type of "reasoning" to justify their fawlty "theology" is smoke and mirrors as we see that John states the time is at hand:

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

In Young's literal:

Rev 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

Yup, snippets and stitchworks.

BUT, just for poops and giggles, if you think all prophecy has been fulfilled, what's in store for us from here? What comes next for us?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

OK explain to me why Luke 16:17 is a lie...

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

How is it a lie - I don't think I implied it was a lie.

 

[RickyZ]

BUT, just for poops and giggles, if you think all prophecy has been fulfilled, what's in store for us from here? What comes next for us?

Ok, sorry for being snippy. But honestly, in 3 paragraphs, in your own words, what are we waiting for? What happens next? I'd really like to know, without the 2 mile long read, what's in your heart instead of your head.