Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[eternally-gratefull]

UMMM EG,

doesn't ALL mean ALL when Jeremiah says all the kingdoms on THE FACE OF THE EARTH?

and all the kings of the north, near and far, one after the other—all the kingdoms on the face of the earth.

Um. That is one way to look at it. We could close our minds and souls. and yell at everyone else.

or we could open our minds and see what God is saying.

We have examples of this in our own language.

If I say technology has affected the WHOLE world. or ALL the world. No one (unless they were trying to argue with me and nit pick what I said) would have a problem with what i said. Knowing that I was speaking of not the whole world. or ALL the world. but the parts of civilization which has been touched by society.

However. If I said, Technology has toauched every tribe, nation and language. No one could mistake what I said, and ALL would claim me to be a liar. because many human tribes, many people of spoken languages, have not been touched with technology. in fact, they have never seen modern technology.

So are you willing to open your heart? or continue to call god a liar. and take EVERY tribe, EVERY nation, and EVERY language to not mean every??

ps. Since you decided it was OK to yell. I will go ahead and increase my font also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Patience Chosen will get there. Going out for coffee this morning.

Why does the time of Jacobs trouble HAVE to be future?

UMMM Did you read the posts about the libellus? Or do we ignore that?

why? for a few reasons.

1. This is a time of great tribulation throughout the whole world
2. God in this time will punish nations who were against jacob, and did not treat her well when they were under their care
3. The end will be the return of Christ, and the restoration of Israel. who has because of this great persecution, called out on the name of the Lord, and were saved (repented of their sins, and follow the true messiah)

Non of these things have occured yet.

 

[zone]

In chapter one,[2] we already got the sense that the predicted events in this book were to be localized, and that they had to do primarily with the land of Israel/Palestine as it existed in John’s day.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nah history has nothing to do with Revelation at all,never mind that most of the symbols in Revelation are also used in the OT to define what those same symbols mean in Revelation. Gotta throw all those out and redefine what those symbols mean.

There is more in response to Green on the other chapters. More later.

lol.. Yeah lets twist everything.

in the OT. symbols were said to represent literal things.. Lets just throw out the fact that symbols in NT prophesy do not represent literal things or events. But symbolic things, or events. which no one could prove happened or not. Just speculate. And take the whole reason God gives prophesy in the first place (to prove he is the one true God. for no one else can predict things hundreds, or even thousands of years before they happen. And they literaly come true EXACTLY how God said they would.) excpet God himself. thus no one has an excuse.



Why do we think the kings who were hiding under rocks KNEW it was Gods wrath? they knew the prophesy. And were seeing first hand it was happening..

 

[zone]

C. Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth (6:5-6)​

Q: Who made the remark about “a quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius”?


A: We are only told that there “seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures.”The following is a short excerpt regarding this famine from a term paper I wrote in 2009:

…[T]he great famine predicted by Agabus in Acts 11:27-30 began in the fourth year of the reign of Claudius (i.e. 45 AD) and “was of long continuance. It extended through Greece, and even into Italy, but was felt most severely in Judea and especially at Jerusalem, where many perished for want of bread” [quote from George Peter Holford in 1805].


In December 69 AD John of Gischala foolishly set fire to the supply warehouses in Jerusalem, and nearly all the grain supplies were burned, which would have lasted the city for years. This set the stage for a massive famine which would prove to be Jerusalem’s undoing. The famine became so severe during the final five months in which Jerusalem was under siege by the Romans that there are records of parents roasting and eating their own children. Others ate their belts, sandals, dried grass, and even oxen dung.


Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth (6:7-8)[/CENTER]A quarter of the population was to be wiped out [1] with sword [2] with famine [3] with pestilence [4] by wild beasts of the earth. We’ve already seen how the period of time leading up to Jerusalem’s downfall was characterized by war and famine.


Regarding pestilences, George Peter Holford (1805) added these details:

History…particularly distinguishes two instances of this calamity, which occurred before the commencement of the Jewish war. The first took place at Babylon about A. D. 40, and raged so alarmingly, that great multitudes of Jews fled from that city to Seleucia forsafety, as hath been hinted already. The other happened at Rome A.D. 65, and carried off prodigiousmultitudes. Both Tacitus and Suetonius also record, that similar calamities prevailed, during this period, in various parts of the Roman empire.


After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege. They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from spread of famine.​

Steve Gregg (pp. 114, 116) sheds more light on the significance of John’s description of the fourth seal judgment:The reference to the means of death, sword, hunger, death [i.e. pestilence], and beasts of the earth [v. 8] are a deliberate echo of Ezekiel 14:21, where “sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence” are called God’s “four severe judgments on Jerusalem.”


In Ezekiel, God used these means to inflict judgment at the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 B.C., which was a precursor of this event, similar in detail and in significance, in A.D. 70.Josephus describes the carnage and death in Jerusalem during the siege in the following terms: “So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city.


Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine; and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged. The seditious…as not enduring the stench of the dead bodies…had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. However, when Titus, in going his rounds along those valleys, saw them full of dead bodies, and the thick putrefaction running about them, he gave a groan…and such was the sad case of the city itself (Wars, 5:12:3-4).”
​

terrifying.


...

this has to be that time:


Revelation 11
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


hmmm​

 

[zone]

Amos 9:14-15 says they will never be uprooted from the land, is this a real promise by God, or one that only has spiritual fulfillment?

well did never mean never?

James said this was fulfilled....and then the land was laid waste...in 70AD.


Amos 9
The Restoration of Israel
11 “In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,”c
declares the LORD who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.


...

Acts 15
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

....

so they were uprooted.
the whole city was destroyed.

if we take the last portion of Amos and say, well that's the part that isn't fulfilled (they were uprooted so have to return once more) - wouldn't the going back to the Land forever, never (even though we all seem to agree there is a new heaven; earth & jerusalem eventually) ever to be uprooted again be a promise made to the people who were first called Christians at Antioch, and have been called Christians ever since?

...or more in keeping with the Hebrew language and prophecies - is Amos describing the CHURCH and Spiritual israel; jew & gentile < the Apostles said that's was what Amos said....and into the eternal state?

 

[zone]

There is no doubt that Jesus is the way to God. But to say that the OT saints understood that what they were doing was having faith in a future Christ is a huge assumption. I'm not saying there weren't signs or pointers to christ. But the Israelites were showing their faith in what God had revealed to them, the blessings and cursings of the Mosaic law. These didn't save them, their faith in God saved them.

but.....the Torah is FILLED with the words of the prophets declaring the Coming Redeemer.
Abraham believed God...and apparently so did many Israelites...they were the Apostles and disciples.

the Samaritans were waiting for Messiah...

Jesus said there was always a portion of Israel that refused to believe the prophets on any matters - and killed them.
so those ones wouldn't be called OT saints.

the believers would be OT saints.

Hebrews told us they all (the OT saints) knew they were only sojourners in the land....how do we reconcile that with the claim that today the saints should think otherwise?

 

[zone]

There are many gaps in prophecy throughout Scripture, the idea that there's a gap in Dan. 2 is not mind-boggling. The fact that in Christ's 1st coming He didn't crush all the previous kingdoms and set up a real physical kingdom in the way that the entire vision shows real physical kingdoms (Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome) is evidence that this hasn't been fulfilled.

uh....did we expect Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome etc to be lifeless craters since Christ's day?

is that what is meant?

is that what it means to take prophecies literally?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

terrifying.


...

this has to be that time:


Revelation 11
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


hmmm

yeah amazing.

today we see the dead bodies of those killed in the middle east all over thw world. everyone can witness the carage and evil of the islamic extremists.

who would have thought there would be a day and time people all over the world would witness the murder of these two great men of God. and watch own the privacy of their own living rooms, Their workplaces and their person computers these men and celebrate their deaths, then amazingly witness their resurrection. and watch as they ascend to the clouds and disappear before their very eyes.

I wonder how many people will get saved by these chain of events. and reject the beast? Praise God that he has a plan. Has shown us that this would happen. And everyone who witnesses these events will have no excuse, because they were prophesied, and many, because of this, will repent and come to him!.

 

[konroh]

15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

Here's the problem, there is no warrant for supposing that Amos was referring to a spiritual Israel that is the Church. Virtually no OT scholar would agree with the hermeneutical wrangling it takes to say that Amos wasn't referring to the people group of Israel with this statement. It's true that we have references to a spiritual Isreal in the NT, but very few, only 2 by my reckoning, in the majority of the case it still refers to the physical people of Israel. In fact, even in the 2 spiritual references, the physical definition of Jew/Israel has to be understood in order to even get to the point that it's spiritual Israel!

The clear interpretation of Amos is that it was referring to the physical Jewish people and the physical Gentile people. And what does it mean to restore the booth of David, or the tent of David? As far as I know this is the only reference to this, but David was king of the united kingdom, North and South. We have a tent being raised up with two poles. The reference seems to be that there will once again be a united Davidic kingdom, and the Gentiles will join in with this blessing.

Notice that James doesn't say that this is now being fulfilled, He says that the Gentiles becoming Christians agrees with God's overall plan to have Jew and Gentile be united in one blessing. If this is God's plan, let's do it now! It doesn't negate the future fulfillment of this, that there will be a future Davidic United Kingdom and the Gentiles will join in. james also quotes from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic Text. He makes his point against the Judaizers with their text.

 

[zone]

Here's the problem, there is no warrant for supposing that Amos was referring to a spiritual Israel that is the Church. Virtually no OT scholar would agree with the hermeneutical wrangling it takes to say that Amos wasn't referring to the people group of Israel with this statement. It's true that we have references to a spiritual Isreal in the NT, but very few, only 2 by my reckoning, in the majority of the case it still refers to the physical people of Israel. In fact, even in the 2 spiritual references, the physical definition of Jew/Israel has to be understood in order to even get to the point that it's spiritual Israel!

konroh,
it doesn't matter to me one bit if ppl use the term "spiritual israel" or not.

the whole point is - this passage in Acts, is recounting what the believing portion of the physical people of Israel (who were later called Christians) - we know their names - Peter; Barnabas; Paul; James < (the physical people of Israel) said about Amos 9.

Peter says: "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe...referring to the vision of the unclean animals and Cornelius.

the believing portion of the physical people of Israel at Jerusalem (we could say - spiritual israel) decides that: God made no distinction between gentiles and israel, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

if they said way back then that God made no distinction between gentiles and israel, having cleansed both their hearts by faith (spiritual people now)...and they connected that event (the calling of the gentiles; the Holy Spirit in the gentiles) directly to Amos 9:


16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

how can you even try to suggest theres no way to wrangle the meaning that Amos was referring to a spiritual Israel that is the Church.

thats exactly what Amos was predicting....thats exactly what the Council recognized.

the Church - or the saved - called out people of God was by then both jew and gentile.

and the COUNCIL SAID AMOS 9 was fulfilled: I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it....

right
this is why we have Dispensationalism - nobody wants to accept the fact that the Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom that Jesus is on the Throne of David now.

i dont see where you get the idea i ever suggested the Apostles were not of the physical people of Israel....

Acts 15
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”


you say: the physical definition of Jew/Israel has to be understood in order to even get to the point that it's spiritual Israel!

uh ya.....thats been my case all along.
i dont see the problem.

The clear interpretation of Amos is that it was referring to the physical Jewish people and the physical Gentile people. And what does it mean to restore the booth of David, or the tent of David? As far as I know this is the only reference to this, but David was king of the united kingdom, North and South. We have a tent being raised up with two poles. The reference seems to be that there will once again be a united Davidic kingdom, and the Gentiles will join in with this blessing.

soooooo.......will king david be resurrected to be the king over the united kingdom

were the two sticks not united on their return from Babylon....well ya. they were.
all 12 tribes retruned and Jesus called out His own and they became Christians and they spread the Gospel and then the rebellious unbelieving city and people were destroyed, just as Jesus warned.

if i understand you correctly, you are saying - the Apostles SAID their return to the Land as a people (under the Romans); with Messiah coming and saving; the Holy Spirit coming; the Gentiles called and adopted into the Household of God; all the believers being an habitation of God - the temple of God....the Church.....was the restoration of the kingdom of Israel (the tent of David) BUT THEY GOT IT WRONG

no, they got it right.

Notice that James doesn't say that this is now being fulfilled, He says that the Gentiles becoming Christians agrees with God's overall plan to have Jew and Gentile be united in one blessing. If this is God's plan, let's do it now! It doesn't negate the future fulfillment of this, that there will be a future Davidic United Kingdom and the Gentiles will join in. james also quotes from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic Text. He makes his point against the Judaizers with their text.

well, weve gone over the passages that SAY the physicl israelites together with gentiles received THE KINGDOM when Jesus came the First time so many times i just dont have the energy to do it again at this moment.

the houses were united - into one new man in Christ.

thats it...like

this here: a future Davidic United Kingdom and the Gentiles will join in negates everything the NT says Jesus already did

what is a future Davidic United Kingdom

Notice that James doesn't say that this is now being fulfilled, He says that the Gentiles becoming Christians agrees with God's overall plan to have Jew and Gentile be united in one blessing. If this is God's plan, let's do it now! It doesn't negate the future fulfillment of this, that there will be a future Davidic United Kingdom and the Gentiles will join in.

so is that the Millennium - where are those passages....who is reigning - David

why didnt Paul make that really clear here:

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's the problem, there is no warrant for supposing that Amos was referring to a spiritual Israel that is the Church. Virtually no OT scholar would agree with the hermeneutical wrangling it takes to say that Amos wasn't referring to the people group of Israel with this statement. It's true that we have references to a spiritual Isreal in the NT, but very few, only 2 by my reckoning, in the majority of the case it still refers to the physical people of Israel. In fact, even in the 2 spiritual references, the physical definition of Jew/Israel has to be understood in order to even get to the point that it's spiritual Israel!

The clear interpretation of Amos is that it was referring to the physical Jewish people and the physical Gentile people. And what does it mean to restore the booth of David, or the tent of David? As far as I know this is the only reference to this, but David was king of the united kingdom, North and South. We have a tent being raised up with two poles. The reference seems to be that there will once again be a united Davidic kingdom, and the Gentiles will join in with this blessing.

Notice that James doesn't say that this is now being fulfilled, He says that the Gentiles becoming Christians agrees with God's overall plan to have Jew and Gentile be united in one blessing. If this is God's plan, let's do it now! It doesn't negate the future fulfillment of this, that there will be a future Davidic United Kingdom and the Gentiles will join in. james also quotes from the Septuagint, which differs from the Masoretic Text. He makes his point against the Judaizers with their text.

Amen, and this also fits with Ez 37. Where God restors life to the bones. And brings the northern and southern kingdoms together, where they are united, never to be divided into two kingdoms again.

 

[Elin]

well did never mean never?

James said this was fulfilled....and then the land was laid waste...in 70AD.


Amos 9
The Restoration of Israel
11 “In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,”
declares the LORD who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.


...

Acts 15
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

....

so they were uprooted.
the whole city was destroyed.

if we take the last portion of Amos and say, well that's the part that isn't fulfilled (they were uprooted so have to return once more) - wouldn't the going back to the Land forever, never (even though we all seem to agree there is a new heaven; earth & jerusalem eventually) ever to be uprooted again be a promise made to the people who were first called Christians at Antioch, and have been called Christians ever since?

...or more in keeping with the Hebrew language and prophecies - is Amos describing the CHURCH and Spiritual israel; jew & gentile < the Apostles said that's was what Amos said....and into the eternal state?

Note that James said the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, to rebuild (restore) the tent of David (Israel),
was being fulfilled, as Peter and Paul showed in their testimonies, by the Gentiles coming into the
church, which is composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.

And since Gentiles will be coming into the one people of God, the NT church of believing Jews and Gentiles, until the end of time, Amos 9:11-12 has only one fulfillment, the NT Church.

 

[zone]

Amen, and this also fits with Ez 37. Where God restors life to the bones. And brings the northern and southern kingdoms together, where they are united, never to be divided into two kingdoms again.

EG - the valley of the dry bones was their time in Babylon - God's vision to Ezekiel was their release and return from Babylon, back to Israel (the Land)...in time for Jesus and the Promise.

just like Daniel - who was there at the time and prayed the prayer - wrote about.

he knew from Jeremiah the time of the captivity (70 years) was coming to an end...so he prayed...right?

and he got the visions....of the Kingdoms.
he saw the stone cut without hands toppling the Image...rome being the last of the kingdoms.

he was told 70 weeks were determined...from the going forth of the command to return and rebuild the tent of david (as it turns out) until the coming of Messiah the Prince; The Holy One; The Most Holy; The King...would be 69 weeks.

and it was.

the tribes were united....they all trailed back to the land and rebuilt.
their King came.
some would have Him to be King over them and some wouldn't.

and??? we just read about the terrible wrath on the people and city who rejected Jesus - horrible!

but those who received their inheritance- those who entered the Kingdom of the Dear Son - they will never be divided again....and the gentiles are grafted in.

???

Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

i just.....it's....like....how did this GLORIOUS PROMISE of the CHURCH - which is the Kingdom - ever become something "never promised to israel" - or something they never received?

something as BradC and John Hagee and God knows who else say ISRAEL was never promised?

WHAT BLASPHEMY...WHAT ROBBERY.


this is the entire point of everything:

...

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus

and that is why:



"....Dispensationalists see God as pursuing two distinct purposes throughout history, one related to an earthly goal and an earthly people (the Jews), the other to heavenly goals and a heavenly people (the church).Dispensationalists believe that in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the “mystery form” of the kingdom – the church – was established.

The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a “parenthesis” in God’s plan for Israel...."

...

“What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation… If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation.”

- John H. Gerstner Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Note that James said the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, to rebuild (restore) the tent of David (Israel),
was being fulfilled, as Peter and Paul showed in their testimonies, by the Gentiles coming into the
church, which is composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.

And since Gentiles will be coming into the one people of God, the NT church of believing Jews and Gentiles, until the end of time, Amos 9:11-12 has only one fulfillment, the NT Church.

Well of course. Amos 9: 11-12 speaks of one day.

but lets not forget the days of vs 13-15
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled upFrom the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.

we certainly can not say this has happened yet. or that the church has fulfilled this aspect of the prophesy now can we??

 

[zone]

Well of course. Amos 9: 11-12 speaks of one day.

but lets not forget the days of vs 13-15
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled upFrom the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.

we certainly can not say this has happened yet. or that the church has fulfilled this aspect of the prophesy now can we??

do you concede that the council at jerusalem SAID the coming in of the gentiles and their union as the people of Israel under Jesus The King was the fulfillment of PART of Amos?

are you suggesting another 2000 year gap in there EG?

that's fine - i'll go with the gap for now - but wouldn't the second half be ETERNITY - the New Heavens and Earth?

if it isn't a picture of the church and/or eternal state....you have unrepentant "Israel" (multi-racial btw) returning to "the State of Israel" - taking all the Land from the Nile to Euphrates....all the while denying Jesus Christ - and gentiles falling by the MILLIONS - IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ISRAELITES DID NOT reject the king....- THE APOSTLES and the 3000 at Pentecost....did not deny Jesus....and those who did suffered the HORRIBLE fate of 70AD...


if i'm getting the picture here - dispensationalists (and zionists for some weird reason) are hitting RESET...and the fate 1st century Judea suffered - total annhiliation - is what we expect to see AGAIN?

because that's the only logical conclusion.

if you're going to recycle prophecies - you have to use the SAME ONES.

so God is bringing all the jews back to israel in sin and unbelief - to pour out fury on them WORSE than what happened in 70AD?

because there's no other prophecies - there's no BAIT AND SWITCH where a Roman pope or Prince persecutes the jews and breaks a peace treaty and stuff.

there's the prophecies of what happened to Israel ONCE ALREADY.

????

what kind of God is THIS ???

this is His WONDERFUL PROMISE?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - the valley of the dry bones was their time in Babylon - God's vision to Ezekiel was their release and return from Babylon, back to Israel (the Land)...in time for Jesus and the Promise.

how can you sit there with a sound mind and sound heart and say this sis? The things spoken to Ezekial about this have not yet been fulfilled. Thus it can not be about babylon.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

1. They were not dispersed to NATIONS while under babylonian captivity
2. Babylon did not remove the northern kingdom. Syria did
3. During babylonian captivity. MOST Jews still remained in Israel. they were even given a puppet king, and only a few of the high men were transported to babylon. the rest remained in Isreal.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again

This certainly did not happen

1. They were not made one nation (although peoples from all tribes were in judah even at the return from babylon. Scripture shows many came into Judah during the syrian invasion, so they were there all along)
2. The people from the other tribes, who came during the invasion of syria, became part of the southern kingdom. The return of babylon did not bring two nations together. It was still considered JUDAH, who had in her borders people from all tribes.
3. One king was never given to them. They were continually from the time babylon 1st took them, until they were dispersed in 70 ad. Under gentile rulers and the gentile king who were their conquerers
4. Since they were dispersed in 70 AD (only the southern kingdom or Judah) this could not have been fulfilled. Because they are NOT in the lan, and NOT in the mountains forever.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions;

your going to tell me that they did nto continue to defile themselves with idols, and detestable things? and they did not continue to commit their transgressions against God? well history shows they did, EVEN when they returned from babylon. In fact Daniel shows us they would continue for 70 weeks even after the command to restor the city. So babylon return CANT be the fulfiment of this


but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.This

happened at the return of exhile from babylon? Come on Zone.. you are smarter than this!

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.

This happened then? I think not


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them,

This happened then?? Since when did they live in peace? They did not. they lived under the rule of gentile kings


[SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel,

This happened then? lol. Thats funny, neither the medes or persions, the greek, or the romans thought God sanctified Israel.

Again, You are smarter than this Zone. THINK SIS!

 

[weakness]

​E G do you believe that christ will come and rescue Israel when the anti Christ attacks them?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

do you concede that the council at jerusalem SAID the coming in of the gentiles and their union as the people of Israel under Jesus The King was the fulfillment of PART of Amos?

are you suggesting another 2000 year gap in there EG?

that's fine - i'll go with the gap for now - but wouldn't the second half be ETERNITY - the New Heavens and Earth?

if it isn't a picture of the church and/or eternal state....you have unrepentant "Israel" (multi-racial btw) returning to "the State of Israel" - taking all the Land from the Nile to Euphrates....all the while denying Jesus Christ - and gentiles falling by the MILLIONS - IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ISRAELITES DID NOT reject the king....- THE APOSTLES and the 3000 at Pentecost....did not deny Jesus....and those who did suffered the HORRIBLE fate of 70AD...


if i'm getting the picture here - dispensationalists (and zionists for some weird reason) are hitting RESET...and the fate 1st century Judea suffered - total annhiliation - is what we expect to see AGAIN?

because that's the only logical conclusion.

if you're going to recycle prophecies - you have to use the SAME ONES.

so God is bringing all the jews back to israel in sin and unbelief - to pour out fury on them WORSE than what happened in 70AD?

because there's no other prophecies - there's no BAIT AND SWITCH where a Roman pope or Prince persecutes the jews and breaks a peace treaty and stuff.

there's the prophecies of what happened to Israel ONCE ALREADY.

????

what kind of God is THIS ???

this is His WONDERFUL PROMISE?

No. What I am establishing, is that EVERYTHING GOD said in verses 13-15 will come to pass.

If you do not think they will. well thats just sad. that God would say this will happen. when he knew it would not. A

And yes. Since vs 11-12 where shown to be fulfilled. And since 13-15 has been proven to not be fulfilled. The mystery must occure between these two events.

I am not going to try to spiritualise and make a symbol of vs 13- 15 just because I do not want to insert a gap. or it goes against my belief system.

 

[zone]

how can you sit there with a sound mind and sound heart and say this sis? The things spoken to Ezekial about this have not yet been fulfilled. Thus it can not be about babylon.

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

1. They were not dispersed to NATIONS while under babylonian captivity

Jeremiah 16
14"Therefore behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when it will no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,'

15 but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.'

why do you skip over the Babylonian captivity and release? WHY?

because you think the nations means the United States and France?


Jeremiah 16
14"Therefore behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when it will no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,'

15 but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.'

EG - are you seriously telling me that JESUS DID NOT tear down the distinction between jew and gentile?
they didn't return?
they weren't united?

For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

did James say that happened or not?

did they return from Babylon and rebuild or not?

did they receive a Book written specifically to them about The New Covenant and what Jesus coming meant and what the temple meant and that they ought NOT to look for a continuing city on earth?

16"Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks.

Matthew 4:19
18Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.


does Jesus have to do this AGAIN in Judea?

WHY? the Gospel is gone to the whole world.
is that what you are saying?

the Evangelists are fishermen?