Do protestants have a reasonable non-Roman-Catholic explanation for John 20:22-23?

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beechan said:
First century church did this:

They (1)devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the(2) breaking of the bread and to the prayers.

I don't think you do the same.
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We absolutely do!!
 
@beechan: Could you please explain the basis for the very first Pope of The Catholic Church deciding that he was the successor from Peter in the Bible?
 
PaulThomson said:
I came across a video lately by so fellow who left protestantism because he claimed no protestant commentaries had anything to say about John 20:22-23, but Roman Catholic scholars did, claiming that it gives special authority to ordained priests to forgive the sins of others in the Roman Catholic sacrament of confession. So, I thought this might be a good text to discuss here.

Jhn 20:22
And (καὶ) after saying (εἰπὼν, aorist active participle) this, (τοῦτο) he breathed into (ἐνεφύσησεν, aorist active indicative) them and (καὶ) says (λέγει, present indicative active) to them (αὐτοῖς) “Receive (λάβετε, aorist active imperative, start to receive) Holy Spirit (πνεῦμα ἅγιον, anarthrous nominal: that which characterises the Holy Spirit).
20:22 καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησεν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς λάβετε πνεῦμα ἅγιον
Jhn 20:23
“Whosoever's (ἄν τινων) sins (τὰς ἁμαρτίας, mark-missings) you release/forgive (ἀφῆτε, aorist active subjunctive), they have been released/forgiven (ἀφέωνται, perfect passive indicative, they were released/forgiven and continue to be released/forgive) to/for them (αὐτοῖς); whosoever's ( ἄν τινων) you (pl.) keep taking hold of (κρατῆτε, present active subjunctive), they have been taken hold of (κεκράτηνται, perfect passive indicative, they were taken hold of and continue to be taken hold of).”
20:23 ἄν τινων ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀφέωνται αὐτοῖς ἄν τινων κρατῆτε κεκράτηνται

I believe we should understand this in the light of some of Jesus' other statements about forgiveness.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.....
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The disciples at this time received the gracious nature of the Holy Spirit from Jesus, since they had believed in their hearts He was risen from the dead and had confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord. This grace enabled them to forgive one another and come into harmony and unity ready for Pentecost (Act 2:1), when the Holy Spirit would be released upon all flesh (Act 2:17) the Lord working through Him with the disciples, confirming the word of God with signs and wonders (Mar 16:20).

So, here in John 20, Jesus is giving the disciples the grace to let go of their grudges and resentment against one another. He is telling them that once you let go of someone's mark-missing, you can be assured that God has also forgiven that same mark-missing. But if you are holding on to your brother's or sister's shortcomings and not releasing them, you have taken upon yourself ownership of those same shortcomings in your own life, and you will be judged by God for them.

So, it is not about the apostles receiving a special apostolic declarative power to break sins off people, but it is about the Holy Spirit's grace at work in every believer, and every believer's responsibility to freely give the forgiveness they have freely received, in order to continue to freely receive forgiveness.
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Hi Paul. In order to understand John 20: 22-23 you have to also include John 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you; as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. In verse 22 Jesus breathes on them the Holy Spirit and they received understanding that Jesus lived, suffered death, and rose from the dead the third day. Luke 24: 45-46 In Luke 24: 47 Jesus tells his disciples And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In John 20: 23 Jesus is telling his disciples that in their journey which they are sent, sins will be remitted and sins will be retained through their preaching. Only God can forgive sins. Mark 2: 7 In Mark 2: 5,10 Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit (the Father's presence) and is given authority on earth to forgive sins. The Son is the temple of the Father, and it is the Father who speaks and acts through Jesus. It is the Father who forgives sins through Jesus.
 
OLDBUTNEW said:
@beechan: First of all, Sir: Please know that I mean no disrespect to the Catholic Church: In fact, my mother is Catholic;
Yes, thank you for the above Link: I've just read it now.
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I am wondering why every time I talked about the Catholic Church, you just gave me a ‘thumb down’ or ‘dislike’ with no reason given.
 
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beechan said:
I am wondering why every time I talked about the Catholic Church, you just gave me a ‘thumb down’ or ‘dislike’ with no reason given.
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Oh, yes, I apologise for that; I wasn't thinking straight!
 
decipher said:
Hi Paul. In order to understand John 20: 22-23 you have to also include John 20: 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you; as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. In verse 22 Jesus breathes on them the Holy Spirit and they received understanding that Jesus lived, suffered death, and rose from the dead the third day. Luke 24: 45-46 In Luke 24: 47 Jesus tells his disciples And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In John 20: 23 Jesus is telling his disciples that in their journey which they are sent, sins will be remitted and sins will be retained through their preaching. Only God can forgive sins. Mark 2: 7 In Mark 2: 5,10 Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit (the Father's presence) and is given authority on earth to forgive sins. The Son is the temple of the Father, and it is the Father who speaks and acts through Jesus. It is the Father who forgives sins through Jesus.
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So do you agree the bible references in your post support Catholic priesthood (ministrial priest) in spite of all believers are priests (common priesthood)?
 
beechan said:
So do you agree the bible references in your post support Catholic priesthood (ministrial priest) in spite of all believers are priests (common priesthood)?
Click to expand...

Definitely not. You need to read my post again. Catholic priests do not remit or retain sins. God does through the preaching of the Gospel by Christians. Those that believe the Gospel by hearing will have their sins remitted. Those that don't believe will have their sins retained.
 
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beechan said:
We have over 40000 christian denominations globally. Many of those are Protestant denominations. Jesus is the head of which church?
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You are right ! Many "proclaimed" Christian Churches, with many differing, professed doctrines. ( They all can't be Christ's Church body.)
Good question ! ~~> "Jesus is the head of which church? ... and of course, we have to let the Bible define itself.
We HAVE TO let JESUS define HIMSELF ..

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The one that worships him in spirit and in truth.
Click to expand...
Yes !! "The one that worships him in spirit and in truth."
So ! ... How does the Word, define Himself, in spirit and in truth ??

The KJV Bible describe a “Jesus‑centered” church as a community that meets several biblical qualifications. Below are the key factors that mark the true church, with Jesus identified explicitly as its Head.
  1. Christ‑centered, with Jesus as its sovereign Head.
  2. Grounded in sound biblical doctrine—the gospel of salvation through Christ.
  3. Marked by outward signs (baptism, communion) and inward transformation (holiness, love).
  4. Unified in purpose, guided by the Holy Spirit, and organized for worldwide evangelism.
These below verses collectively demonstrate the biblical foundation for each of the characteristics that define the true, Christ‑headed church. ... culminating TODAY, as is Christ's Church mentioned in Rev 14:12 ~"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith OF Jesus."

1. Christ as Head and Founder
1.  Eph 5:23 – “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”
2.  Col 1:18 – “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, ... the firstborn from the dead.”
3.  Heb 12:2 – “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; … who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross.”

2. Doctrine Centered on the Gospel of Jesus Christ
1.  Rom 1:16 – “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every … believing.”
2.  Matt 28:19‑20 – “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them … in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things … which I have commanded you.”
3..  1 Cor 15:3‑4 – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day …”

3. Baptism by Immersion in the Name of the Triune God
1.  Matt 28:19 – “baptizing them … in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
2.  Acts 2:38 – “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…”
3.  Romans 6:4 – “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: … that we should walk in newness of life.”

4. Obedience to the Ten Commandments & the Law of Love
1.  John 14:15 – “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
2.  Matt 22:37‑40 – “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God … Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself … on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
3.  Deut 6:5 – “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.”

5. Holiness of Life & Moral Purity
1.  1 Pet 1:16 – “Because it is written, Be holy, for I am holy.”
2.  Eph 4:22‑24 – “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man … that ye may be renewed in the spirit of your mind … put on the new man …”
3.  2 Cor 7:1 – “Therefore now we beseech you, brethren, … cleanse yourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.”

6. Unity of Believers under One Faith & One Hope
1.  Eph 4:4‑6 – “There is one body, and one spirit, … that ye may be united in one mind.”
2. 1 Cor 1:10 – “Now I beseech you, brethren … that there be no divisions among you … but that ye be perfectly united in mind and judgment.”
3.  Phil 2:2 – “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, …”

7. Mission to Evangelize the World
1.  Matt 9:37‑38 – “The harvest truly is plenteous … pray ye the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.”
2.  Mark 16:15 – “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
3.  Acts 1:8 – “But ye shall receive power … and be witnesses … unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

8. Presence of the Holy Spirit
1  Acts 2:4 – “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak …”
2  John 14:26 – “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, … shall teach you all things.”
3  1 Cor 12:13 – “For by one Spirit … were all baptized into one body …”

9. Visible Organization with Ordained Leadership
1.  2 Tim 2:2 – “And the things that thou hast heard … deliver them to the faithful men … that they may be able to teach others also.”
2.  Titus 1:5 – “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order … the things that are lacking … and appoint elders …”
3.  1 Peter 5:1‑2 – “Shepherd the flock of God … be subject to the ... overseers …”

~~~> Blessed Sabbath Folks <~~~
****************** ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ******************
 
Follower777 said:
You are right ! Many "proclaimed" Christian Churches, with many differing, professed doctrines. ( They all can't be Christ's Church body.)
Good question ! ~~> "Jesus is the head of which church? ... and of course, we have to let the Bible define itself.
We HAVE TO let JESUS define HIMSELF ..


Yes !! "The one that worships him in spirit and in truth."
So ! ... How does the Word, define Himself, in spirit and in truth ??

The KJV Bible describe a “Jesus‑centered” church as a community that meets several biblical qualifications. Below are the key factors that mark the true church, with Jesus identified explicitly as its Head.
  1. Christ‑centered, with Jesus as its sovereign Head.
  2. Grounded in sound biblical doctrine—the gospel of salvation through Christ.
  3. Marked by outward signs (baptism, communion) and inward transformation (holiness, love).
  4. Unified in purpose, guided by the Holy Spirit, and organized for worldwide evangelism.
These below verses collectively demonstrate the biblical foundation for each of the characteristics that define the true, Christ‑headed church. ... culminating TODAY, as is Christ's Church mentioned in Rev 14:12 ~"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith OF Jesus."

1. Christ as Head and Founder
1.  Eph 5:23 – “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”
2.  Col 1:18 – “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, ... the firstborn from the dead.”
3.  Heb 12:2 – “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; … who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross.”

2. Doctrine Centered on the Gospel of Jesus Christ
1.  Rom 1:16 – “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every … believing.”
2.  Matt 28:19‑20 – “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them … in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things … which I have commanded you.”
3..  1 Cor 15:3‑4 – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day …”

3. Baptism by Immersion in the Name of the Triune God
1.  Matt 28:19 – “baptizing them … in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
2.  Acts 2:38 – “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…”
3.  Romans 6:4 – “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: … that we should walk in newness of life.”

4. Obedience to the Ten Commandments & the Law of Love
1.  John 14:15 – “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
2.  Matt 22:37‑40 – “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God … Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself … on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
3.  Deut 6:5 – “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.”

5. Holiness of Life & Moral Purity
1.  1 Pet 1:16 – “Because it is written, Be holy, for I am holy.”
2.  Eph 4:22‑24 – “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man … that ye may be renewed in the spirit of your mind … put on the new man …”
3.  2 Cor 7:1 – “Therefore now we beseech you, brethren, … cleanse yourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.”

6. Unity of Believers under One Faith & One Hope
1.  Eph 4:4‑6 – “There is one body, and one spirit, … that ye may be united in one mind.”
2. 1 Cor 1:10 – “Now I beseech you, brethren … that there be no divisions among you … but that ye be perfectly united in mind and judgment.”
3.  Phil 2:2 – “Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, …”

7. Mission to Evangelize the World
1.  Matt 9:37‑38 – “The harvest truly is plenteous … pray ye the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.”
2.  Mark 16:15 – “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
3.  Acts 1:8 – “But ye shall receive power … and be witnesses … unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

8. Presence of the Holy Spirit
1  Acts 2:4 – “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak …”
2  John 14:26 – “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, … shall teach you all things.”
3  1 Cor 12:13 – “For by one Spirit … were all baptized into one body …”

9. Visible Organization with Ordained Leadership
1.  2 Tim 2:2 – “And the things that thou hast heard … deliver them to the faithful men … that they may be able to teach others also.”
2.  Titus 1:5 – “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order … the things that are lacking … and appoint elders …”
3.  1 Peter 5:1‑2 – “Shepherd the flock of God … be subject to the ... overseers …”

~~~> Blessed Sabbath Folks <~~~
****************** ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣΙΧΘΥΣ ******************
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Then what exactly which church?
The JW? Church of Later Day Saints? the Baptist? Methdist? Lutheren Church? Church of Presbyterian?
 
decipher said:
Definitely not. You need to read my post again. Catholic priests do not remit or retain sins. God does through the preaching of the Gospel by Christians. Those that believe the Gospel by hearing will have their sins remitted. Those that don't believe will have their sins retained.
Click to expand...

Hearing of gospel and believe will have sins removed?
No even the need of baptise?
 
decipher said:
Definitely not. You need to read my post again. Catholic priests do not remit or retain sins. .
Click to expand...



Catholic theology teaches that the sacraments operate ex opere operato — meaning “from the work done.”
In other words, the grace of the sacrament comes from Christ Himself, not from the priest’s moral worthiness.

biblical reference:
2 Corinthians 5:20 “We are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.”
 
Follower777 said:
You are right ! Many "proclaimed" Christian Churches, with many differing, professed doctrines. ( They all can't be Christ's Church body.)
Good question ! ~~> "Jesus is the head of which church? ... and of course, we have to let the Bible define itself.
We HAVE TO let JESUS define HIMSELF ..


Yes !! "The one that worships him in spirit and in truth."
So ! ... How does the Word, define Himself, in spirit and in truth ??
Click to expand...

The underlying message of your post would be :
all the other 'Christian Churches' can't be Christ's Church body, only your church worships him in spirit and in truth.
 
Follower777 said:
You are right ! Many "proclaimed" Christian Churches, with many differing, professed doctrines. ( They all can't be Christ's Church body.)
Good question ! ~~> "Jesus is the head of which church? ... and of course, we have to let the Bible define itself.
We HAVE TO let JESUS define HIMSELF ..


Yes !! "The one that worships him in spirit and in truth."
So ! ... How does the Word, define Himself, in spirit and in truth ??
***************
Click to expand...
The bible says sheep should know the voice of its shepherd.
It is very noisy out there, can you hear clearly?
 
Catholicism started around the 7th century. This is another gospel. Hence the verses:

1762005907301.png
 
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