Do you still sin?
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Believers are not sinners in one sense, because their identity is wrapped up in Christ.
However, Paul exhorts the believer to behave according to their identity, and this is particularly prominent on Romans 6 and I Cor 6.
Believers are defined by their union with Christ, and not according to their sin. Their identity is in Christ, and not in their sin.
This is why claiming that there are "homosexual Christians" is ignorant. Whether the person participates in homosexuality or not is irrelevant. The true believer is defined by his union with Christ, and not by his sin.
However, any real believer will be moving from identification with his sin to identification with Christ, which means he will be pursuing holiness and rejecting sinful behaviors. If someone has professed union with Christ, yet continues in his sinful lusts in the same manner, then eventually he should be asking himself if he is a true believer.
Believers are sinners in the sense that they still fall far short of the perfection required by a God who demands perfection. Man was created in the image of God, to reflect the glory of God. Not one single person reflects that glory perfectly, yet we are called to reflect it. God transforms the believer, over time, into the image of Christ. Yet, we all still fall far short of it, according to 1 John 1:8-9.
So, in that sense, we are still sinners. It isn't the label or identity that we should assume, but in reality we still sin, and need to confess our sins before God.
There are ignorant, self righteous people who will deny that they still sin, but I John 1 stands against them in this regard. If any man claims this, he is deceived. That is why I reject total sanctification. I do believe that Christians can be so immature and blinded to claim that they no longer sin, though. This is because they have not allowed God's Spirit to permeate their lives and to shine a light upon their sinfulness, so they are deluded into thinking they no longer sin.
I was the same way as a young believer, then God caused me to understand Jeremiah 17:9. He replayed words and thoughts in my mind, and showed me that I was still a sinner, even though I thought I was righteous. I suspect many Christians think they have cleaned their lives up, and by this, they merit their salvation but ultimately this is false. There is only one reason why God saves sinners, and that is because the righteousness of Jesus has been given to them as a free gift, per Romans 5.
And, all those who trust in their own righteousness are lost. This includes Pelagians who make such bold claims before God. They are simply lost because they do not depend on what Jesus has done for them. He has lived the perfect life that they could never live, and he died for them on the Cross to forgive their sin debt and to pay the penalty for their sins.
Any other claim to personal righteousness results in eternal damnation. If a person pleads his own righteous deeds at the judgment, he is lost, for he has none. If he claims he has merited his salvation, he is a fool. Unfortunately I think some in the profession church are in this camp. And they will be sorely disappointed if they plead their case in this manner in God's court, for they will be found wanting, and will be cast into outer darkness.
However, Paul exhorts the believer to behave according to their identity, and this is particularly prominent on Romans 6 and I Cor 6.
Believers are defined by their union with Christ, and not according to their sin. Their identity is in Christ, and not in their sin.
This is why claiming that there are "homosexual Christians" is ignorant. Whether the person participates in homosexuality or not is irrelevant. The true believer is defined by his union with Christ, and not by his sin.
However, any real believer will be moving from identification with his sin to identification with Christ, which means he will be pursuing holiness and rejecting sinful behaviors. If someone has professed union with Christ, yet continues in his sinful lusts in the same manner, then eventually he should be asking himself if he is a true believer.
Believers are sinners in the sense that they still fall far short of the perfection required by a God who demands perfection. Man was created in the image of God, to reflect the glory of God. Not one single person reflects that glory perfectly, yet we are called to reflect it. God transforms the believer, over time, into the image of Christ. Yet, we all still fall far short of it, according to 1 John 1:8-9.
So, in that sense, we are still sinners. It isn't the label or identity that we should assume, but in reality we still sin, and need to confess our sins before God.
There are ignorant, self righteous people who will deny that they still sin, but I John 1 stands against them in this regard. If any man claims this, he is deceived. That is why I reject total sanctification. I do believe that Christians can be so immature and blinded to claim that they no longer sin, though. This is because they have not allowed God's Spirit to permeate their lives and to shine a light upon their sinfulness, so they are deluded into thinking they no longer sin.
I was the same way as a young believer, then God caused me to understand Jeremiah 17:9. He replayed words and thoughts in my mind, and showed me that I was still a sinner, even though I thought I was righteous. I suspect many Christians think they have cleaned their lives up, and by this, they merit their salvation but ultimately this is false. There is only one reason why God saves sinners, and that is because the righteousness of Jesus has been given to them as a free gift, per Romans 5.
And, all those who trust in their own righteousness are lost. This includes Pelagians who make such bold claims before God. They are simply lost because they do not depend on what Jesus has done for them. He has lived the perfect life that they could never live, and he died for them on the Cross to forgive their sin debt and to pay the penalty for their sins.
Any other claim to personal righteousness results in eternal damnation. If a person pleads his own righteous deeds at the judgment, he is lost, for he has none. If he claims he has merited his salvation, he is a fool. Unfortunately I think some in the profession church are in this camp. And they will be sorely disappointed if they plead their case in this manner in God's court, for they will be found wanting, and will be cast into outer darkness.
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Reformed believers have a phrase : simul justus et peccator.
This means "at the same time, justified but sinner".
What it means is that in one sense, we are justified and no longer a sinner. Our identity is in Christ, the just one, and since our identit is in him, we are not accounted as sinners.
However, the reality is that we still sin, so in one sense, we are sinners, but it is not our identity.
And, we should be learning how to act according to our new identity.
This is what Paul points toward in Romans 6 and I Corinthians 6.
The believer has been joined with Christ, therefore God views him, legally, as one with Christ. Christ is not a sinner, so the righteousness of Christ belongs to the believer.
However, in reality, every single believer falls short of perfect righteousness in terms of behavior. He strives to behave according to the new identity he has been given, though.
Some hyper-grace preachers claim that this pursuit of holiness is not even necessary, and they are plain and outright liars.
However, if a person is a true believer, they will be desiring righteousness and are never at peace with their sinfulness.
Hyper grace teachers are simply false teachers, and would include no-Lordship Salvation people like Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin of Grace Evangelical Society, as well as various individuals associated with the Free Grace Movement.
I recommend the book Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges in this regard.
This means "at the same time, justified but sinner".
What it means is that in one sense, we are justified and no longer a sinner. Our identity is in Christ, the just one, and since our identit is in him, we are not accounted as sinners.
However, the reality is that we still sin, so in one sense, we are sinners, but it is not our identity.
And, we should be learning how to act according to our new identity.
This is what Paul points toward in Romans 6 and I Corinthians 6.
The believer has been joined with Christ, therefore God views him, legally, as one with Christ. Christ is not a sinner, so the righteousness of Christ belongs to the believer.
However, in reality, every single believer falls short of perfect righteousness in terms of behavior. He strives to behave according to the new identity he has been given, though.
Some hyper-grace preachers claim that this pursuit of holiness is not even necessary, and they are plain and outright liars.
However, if a person is a true believer, they will be desiring righteousness and are never at peace with their sinfulness.
Hyper grace teachers are simply false teachers, and would include no-Lordship Salvation people like Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin of Grace Evangelical Society, as well as various individuals associated with the Free Grace Movement.
I recommend the book Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges in this regard.
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As per my understanding of the bible, There is no sins that deserve death and sins that doesn't deserve death. For the wages of sin is death.This death that is talking about is spiritually death, meaning you are eternally cut off from God's grace and you are going to eternal fire of hell. Your spirit suffers eternal burning. This is the righteous characteristic nature of our heavenly father.
When christians or for that matter non-christians committed sins, we can ask for forgiveness from our heavenly father. H has assure that when we ask fr forgiveness He will forgive us. This is the merciful characteristic nature of our heavenly father.
In summary, our heavenly father has 2 characters, righteous and merciful. When to become righteous and when to become merciful is entirely His prerogative.
When christians or for that matter non-christians committed sins, we can ask for forgiveness from our heavenly father. H has assure that when we ask fr forgiveness He will forgive us. This is the merciful characteristic nature of our heavenly father.
In summary, our heavenly father has 2 characters, righteous and merciful. When to become righteous and when to become merciful is entirely His prerogative.
Part 1 of 2
Hello @NOV25
Yes, this is VERY helpful!
Text that looks like (this) was added by me.
The sin that all true born again believers have to deal with needs to be clearly understood as being no longer our "sinful nature," but sin is now only in our soul and body - not in our spirit.
We have been born again with a new nature - our spirits are raised to life and reborn. We no longer have a "sinful nature" which only desires sin, we now have a "spiritual nature" which only desires God. However, our "flesh" is still sinful. Our flesh consists of our soul and body - NOT our spirit.
Romans 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The "work" of God's Son Yeshua/Jesus Christ while on the Earth - was to sacrifice Himself as The Lamb of God that takes away our sin with His Blood and His Body is spotless without sin which makes His Body the Righteousness of God for us to eat and receive as The Incorruptible Seed of The Word of God. By receiving His Blood and Body we are reconciled to the Father.
The "work" of God's Holy Spirit now on the Earth - is to germinate the Incorruptible Seed of The Word of God that is in us by feeding us The Word of God with understanding which is transforming us into "Christlike" affections, dispositions, and virtues - by renewing our minds (which has a ripple affect of renewing our emotions and wills - every aspect of our souls - our emotions begin to line up with God's emotions and our wills begin to line up with God's Will). This is happening line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little - we are growing and maturing in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
After receiving the Blood and Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, the believer is SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. The believer is marked as God's possession and set apart from the world.
However, the believer needs the BAPTISM (which is the first time a believer is completely filled with the Holy Spirit) with the Holy Spirit and needs to learn how to be CONTINUALLY FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
We MUST be baptized and continually FILLED with the Holy Spirit in order for God's Holy Spirit to "work in us."
We hinder the Holy Spirit's work by resisting, quenching and grieving God's Holy Spirit - the result is our "sinful flesh" gets stronger and we operate as "carnal Christians" bickering and fighting with each other.
Yes, this is when we first get saved and become born again.
Hello @NOV25
Yes, this is VERY helpful!
Text that looks like (this) was added by me.
The sin that all true born again believers have to deal with needs to be clearly understood as being no longer our "sinful nature," but sin is now only in our soul and body - not in our spirit.
We have been born again with a new nature - our spirits are raised to life and reborn. We no longer have a "sinful nature" which only desires sin, we now have a "spiritual nature" which only desires God. However, our "flesh" is still sinful. Our flesh consists of our soul and body - NOT our spirit.
Romans 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The "work" of God's Son Yeshua/Jesus Christ while on the Earth - was to sacrifice Himself as The Lamb of God that takes away our sin with His Blood and His Body is spotless without sin which makes His Body the Righteousness of God for us to eat and receive as The Incorruptible Seed of The Word of God. By receiving His Blood and Body we are reconciled to the Father.
The "work" of God's Holy Spirit now on the Earth - is to germinate the Incorruptible Seed of The Word of God that is in us by feeding us The Word of God with understanding which is transforming us into "Christlike" affections, dispositions, and virtues - by renewing our minds (which has a ripple affect of renewing our emotions and wills - every aspect of our souls - our emotions begin to line up with God's emotions and our wills begin to line up with God's Will). This is happening line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little - we are growing and maturing in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
After receiving the Blood and Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, the believer is SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. The believer is marked as God's possession and set apart from the world.
However, the believer needs the BAPTISM (which is the first time a believer is completely filled with the Holy Spirit) with the Holy Spirit and needs to learn how to be CONTINUALLY FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
We MUST be baptized and continually FILLED with the Holy Spirit in order for God's Holy Spirit to "work in us."
We hinder the Holy Spirit's work by resisting, quenching and grieving God's Holy Spirit - the result is our "sinful flesh" gets stronger and we operate as "carnal Christians" bickering and fighting with each other.
Yes, this is when we first get saved and become born again.
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Part 2 of 2
I see God's method of sanctification differently........
Did our own blood take our sins away?
Did we fulfill the Righteousness of God with our own works?
Why would we even think that we can "sanctify" ourselves in our own strength or why even think that GOD needs our "help"?
This "walk of Holiness is God walking in us and for us" - once again, it is GOD restoring our souls so we can walk.
Our part is to RECEIVE by faith ALL that GOD has done for us, is doing for us, and will do for us.
If we keep trying to "help" God sanctify us, we'll just keep stumbling over our flesh. We've got to be FILLED with God's Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
When we are FILLED with God's Holy Spirit, it is GOD walking in us and for us (we're not walking, God is walking). It's His Work - God gets all the glory, honor and praise!!
I see God's method of sanctification differently........
Did our own blood take our sins away?
Did we fulfill the Righteousness of God with our own works?
Why would we even think that we can "sanctify" ourselves in our own strength or why even think that GOD needs our "help"?
This "walk of Holiness is God walking in us and for us" - once again, it is GOD restoring our souls so we can walk.
Our part is to RECEIVE by faith ALL that GOD has done for us, is doing for us, and will do for us.
If we keep trying to "help" God sanctify us, we'll just keep stumbling over our flesh. We've got to be FILLED with God's Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
When we are FILLED with God's Holy Spirit, it is GOD walking in us and for us (we're not walking, God is walking). It's His Work - God gets all the glory, honor and praise!!
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That was NOT God telling you that you were still a sinner. God saved you, there is no way He would still call you a sinner. God gave you His Righteousness IN CHRIST alone. You were correct to believe you are righteous, but ONLY because of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, not any works you did.
This is were born again believers stumble over their sinful flesh which is in our soul and body.
We really need the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the first time God fills us with His Holy Spirit) and we need to learn how to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.
This is were it gets really confusing for believers that don't understand why they are STILL struggling with sin. We end up doubting our salvation because we can't stop sinning in our own strength, so we say, "Oh well, I guess I'm still a sinner, but at least I'm not going to hell."
In Adam, we are born with a "sinful nature" which desires to sin.
In Christ, we are born with a "spiritual nature" which desires God. Sin is NO LONGER in our "nature." However, sin is STILL in our soul (mind, will and emotions) and our body.
The "work" of the Holy Spirit is to restore our souls by renewing our minds with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God. We just need to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
This is God's Work, NOT ours. Just like we received by faith our salvation from God through Yeshua/Jesus Christ, we need to also receive by faith the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us in power, so we CAN walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God saves sinners because God loves sinners and does not want sinners to perish.
If a sinner wants to be saved, God will save them by taking their sin away with His Blood and giving them the Righteousness of God in the Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, and lastly, sealing them with His Holy Spirit.
The last portion of sin that remains in us is in our soul and body which is our "flesh". This sin will be dealt with by the power of God's Holy Spirit and the power of God's Word - the baptism with the Holy Spirit is required because we are to be sealed and FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Don't you see, God's doing it, NOT us. If God wanted us to not sin in our own strength, then we wouldn't need His Holy Spirit, but it's God that is completely delivering us from ALL sin. Just let Him!
Come, Holy Spirit! Fill us!! We want to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
This is were born again believers stumble over their sinful flesh which is in our soul and body.
We really need the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the first time God fills us with His Holy Spirit) and we need to learn how to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.
This is were it gets really confusing for believers that don't understand why they are STILL struggling with sin. We end up doubting our salvation because we can't stop sinning in our own strength, so we say, "Oh well, I guess I'm still a sinner, but at least I'm not going to hell."
In Adam, we are born with a "sinful nature" which desires to sin.
In Christ, we are born with a "spiritual nature" which desires God. Sin is NO LONGER in our "nature." However, sin is STILL in our soul (mind, will and emotions) and our body.
The "work" of the Holy Spirit is to restore our souls by renewing our minds with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God. We just need to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
This is God's Work, NOT ours. Just like we received by faith our salvation from God through Yeshua/Jesus Christ, we need to also receive by faith the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us in power, so we CAN walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God saves sinners because God loves sinners and does not want sinners to perish.
If a sinner wants to be saved, God will save them by taking their sin away with His Blood and giving them the Righteousness of God in the Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, and lastly, sealing them with His Holy Spirit.
The last portion of sin that remains in us is in our soul and body which is our "flesh". This sin will be dealt with by the power of God's Holy Spirit and the power of God's Word - the baptism with the Holy Spirit is required because we are to be sealed and FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Don't you see, God's doing it, NOT us. If God wanted us to not sin in our own strength, then we wouldn't need His Holy Spirit, but it's God that is completely delivering us from ALL sin. Just let Him!
Come, Holy Spirit! Fill us!! We want to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
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K
No, but I have been known to backslide......
All my sins have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my righteousness is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His Righteousness which is His Body - I am NOW the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!
I am sealed, baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. Here's where the FUN begins.....
Every day is a choice to love God and follow Him..... it's very easy if I stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit, however, if I neglect the Gift of the Holy Spirit then my flesh gets stronger and I backslide.
Along comes the Accuser of the brethren - "You're NOT SAVED! You're still sinning!"
Be careful, the Accuser is a LIAR!
I need to stir up the Gift of the Holy Spirit daily and throughout the day by singing songs in my heart to God, reading, studying, meditating on Gods Word - the Bible, fellowshiping with other believers, praying, talking with God about everything...... so that I can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Sin is GONE, but my flesh has to be dealt with so, I take up my cross, deny myself (flesh) and follow Yeshua/Jesus.
Truly, born again believers are NOT sinners anymore.
Sinners are lost and condemned without a Shepherd (Yeshua/Jesus Christ) - they belong to and are blinded by the god of this world which is Satan.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for those that are in Christ Jesus - these are born again saved believers that get into trouble with their flesh because they haven't learned to stir up the Holy Spirit within them - they backslide and wander off and the Good Shepherd herds them back into the flock - they ALWAYS have a Shepherd!
All my sins have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my righteousness is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His Righteousness which is His Body - I am NOW the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!
I am sealed, baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. Here's where the FUN begins.....
Every day is a choice to love God and follow Him..... it's very easy if I stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit, however, if I neglect the Gift of the Holy Spirit then my flesh gets stronger and I backslide.
Along comes the Accuser of the brethren - "You're NOT SAVED! You're still sinning!"
Be careful, the Accuser is a LIAR!
I need to stir up the Gift of the Holy Spirit daily and throughout the day by singing songs in my heart to God, reading, studying, meditating on Gods Word - the Bible, fellowshiping with other believers, praying, talking with God about everything...... so that I can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Sin is GONE, but my flesh has to be dealt with so, I take up my cross, deny myself (flesh) and follow Yeshua/Jesus.
Truly, born again believers are NOT sinners anymore.
Sinners are lost and condemned without a Shepherd (Yeshua/Jesus Christ) - they belong to and are blinded by the god of this world which is Satan.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for those that are in Christ Jesus - these are born again saved believers that get into trouble with their flesh because they haven't learned to stir up the Holy Spirit within them - they backslide and wander off and the Good Shepherd herds them back into the flock - they ALWAYS have a Shepherd!
I think the old song says it best "I'm just a sinner,saved by grace". We still fall, which is sin. But there is a difference between falling and being a "sinner". We are not sinless but neither are we "sinners ". Someone who continually sins is not saved. You may call it backslidden, but if you are living a continuously sinful lifestyle you are not saved.
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Hi kaylagrl,
I’m looking at the “nature” of sin.... by that I mean “born that way.”
In Adam, we’re born with a sinful nature that desires sin.
In Christ, we’re born with a spiritual nature that desires God.
A true born again believer will not desire sin, but will still struggle with sin in their soul and body - just not in our “nature” anymore.
Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. With the power of God’s Holy Spirit and the power of God’s Word, our minds can be renewed in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
The more the mind is renewed, the more our emotions and will line up with God’s.
It’s a process - line upon line, precept upon precept, being filled with the Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Basically, we’re God’s children learning how to walk.
I’m looking at the “nature” of sin.... by that I mean “born that way.”
In Adam, we’re born with a sinful nature that desires sin.
In Christ, we’re born with a spiritual nature that desires God.
A true born again believer will not desire sin, but will still struggle with sin in their soul and body - just not in our “nature” anymore.
Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. With the power of God’s Holy Spirit and the power of God’s Word, our minds can be renewed in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
The more the mind is renewed, the more our emotions and will line up with God’s.
It’s a process - line upon line, precept upon precept, being filled with the Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Basically, we’re God’s children learning how to walk.
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That was NOT God telling you that you were still a sinner. God saved you, there is no way He would still call you a sinner. God gave you His Righteousness IN CHRIST alone. You were correct to believe you are righteous, but ONLY because of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, not any works you did.
This is were born again believers stumble over their sinful flesh which is in our soul and body.
We really need the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the first time God fills us with His Holy Spirit) and we need to learn how to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.
This is were it gets really confusing for believers that don't understand why they are STILL struggling with sin. We end up doubting our salvation because we can't stop sinning in our own strength, so we say, "Oh well, I guess I'm still a sinner, but at least I'm not going to hell."
In Adam, we are born with a "sinful nature" which desires to sin.
In Christ, we are born with a "spiritual nature" which desires God. Sin is NO LONGER in our "nature." However, sin is STILL in our soul (mind, will and emotions) and our body.
The "work" of the Holy Spirit is to restore our souls by renewing our minds with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God. We just need to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
This is God's Work, NOT ours. Just like we received by faith our salvation from God through Yeshua/Jesus Christ, we need to also receive by faith the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us in power, so we CAN walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God saves sinners because God loves sinners and does not want sinners to perish.
If a sinner wants to be saved, God will save them by taking their sin away with His Blood and giving them the Righteousness of God in the Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, and lastly, sealing them with His Holy Spirit.
The last portion of sin that remains in us is in our soul and body which is our "flesh". This sin will be dealt with by the power of God's Holy Spirit and the power of God's Word - the baptism with the Holy Spirit is required because we are to be sealed and FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Don't you see, God's doing it, NOT us. If God wanted us to not sin in our own strength, then we wouldn't need His Holy Spirit, but it's God that is completely delivering us from ALL sin. Just let Him!
Come, Holy Spirit! Fill us!! We want to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
This is were born again believers stumble over their sinful flesh which is in our soul and body.
We really need the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the first time God fills us with His Holy Spirit) and we need to learn how to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.
This is were it gets really confusing for believers that don't understand why they are STILL struggling with sin. We end up doubting our salvation because we can't stop sinning in our own strength, so we say, "Oh well, I guess I'm still a sinner, but at least I'm not going to hell."
In Adam, we are born with a "sinful nature" which desires to sin.
In Christ, we are born with a "spiritual nature" which desires God. Sin is NO LONGER in our "nature." However, sin is STILL in our soul (mind, will and emotions) and our body.
The "work" of the Holy Spirit is to restore our souls by renewing our minds with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God. We just need to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
This is God's Work, NOT ours. Just like we received by faith our salvation from God through Yeshua/Jesus Christ, we need to also receive by faith the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us in power, so we CAN walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God saves sinners because God loves sinners and does not want sinners to perish.
If a sinner wants to be saved, God will save them by taking their sin away with His Blood and giving them the Righteousness of God in the Body of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, and lastly, sealing them with His Holy Spirit.
The last portion of sin that remains in us is in our soul and body which is our "flesh". This sin will be dealt with by the power of God's Holy Spirit and the power of God's Word - the baptism with the Holy Spirit is required because we are to be sealed and FILLED with the Holy Spirit.
Don't you see, God's doing it, NOT us. If God wanted us to not sin in our own strength, then we wouldn't need His Holy Spirit, but it's God that is completely delivering us from ALL sin. Just let Him!
Come, Holy Spirit! Fill us!! We want to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God showed me otherwise. He showed me that I had deceived myself and was actually wicked and a sinner. I was then able to accept Christ's sacrifice on my behalf, and to confess him as Lord and Savior.
I am really not sure how you think that you are qualified to step into my past and help me re-interpret my conversion. I find it bizarre that someone would attempt to do this. I suppose some charismatics think they can do that, though. But since they aren't the Holy Spirit, I won't be listening to them anytime soon.
Second, the believer is simultaneous saint and sinner. In one sense, he is a saint, and in another sense he is a sinner. I can see some level of harm if an individual accepts an identity as a sinner, because his identity is a saint. However, I see some level of harm with individuals who believe they never sin, because they are either self-deceived or lying according to 1 John 1.
Paul used the word "sinner" to describe himself in the current tense so in one sense, he was a sinner. In another sense, he was a saint.
He was a saint because he had been united with Christ, and legally God views him in this manner. Christ's righteousness was his righteousness, bestowed as a free gift. He was a sinner in the sense that he still commits acts of sin, although he has a new nature that wants to please and serve God. He called himself the chief of sinners. He wasn't at peace with his sin, and he was being transformed into the image of Christ, but he still did not claim that he had totally ceased to commit any sin.
Regarding your views of man's ontology, I don't think sin resides in the physical flesh only. The word "flesh" used in the NT implies more than the physical body. It implies the fallen nature, the man who is in Adam, and relates to the old man. The physical body itself is not sinful..this would be more of a Gnostic view of man's composition. However, I don't have a real big issue with your language in that regard.
I believe that the Christian continues to sin because he has an identity issue, and has not fully accepted his identity in Christ. Romans 6:1-14 and 1 Corinthians 6 leads me to this conclusion.
Paul repeatedly points Christians to this new identity in Christ as a reason to begin behaving according to it. He gives the believer an identity, and then encourages them to live out this identity. He tells them to "put on Christ". They were already in Christ, but they needed to start living out their identity.
Regarding other aspects of what you've said, I am really not into folks who call Jesus "Yeshua" because I begin to think they are Judaizers who are trying to wear their scant knowledge of Hebrew like a garment of pride. I certainly don't have a problem with someone using the word Yeshua, especially a Jew, because it is Jesus' Hebrew name. But, it always makes me think they might be some Hebrew Roots person who looks down on non-Hebrew Roots believers.
And, by the way, I do believe it is God who is transforming the sinner into the image of Christ. In fact, my position on that is perfectly in line with Reformed theology. Reformed brothers were the ones who helped me understand these teachings from Scripture.
It could be that I would agree with some things you have said, but your vocabulary is much different than my vocabulary. My focus is on union with Christ, and identity in Christ. I believe our worldview regarding man's ontology is different, too. Free-willers like to separate man's nature out, so they can maintain autonomous free will by saying that the spirit is dead, but the soul is still alive, or something along that line.
Also I'm suspicious that you may hold a two-tier view of Christianity, where there are "carnal Christians" who really aren't as super-charged as you are, and there are "spirit filled Christians" who are super-duper Christians who are on a higher spiritual plane. Sometimes this is accompanied by charismatic claims, and other times it is accompanied by holiness claims. I reject this two-tiered view. All Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and according to their pursuit of the means of grace, they grow. If they avail themselves of the study of the Word, prayer, fellowship, worship, and other means of grace, they will grow. This is because they are growing closer to Jesus, and growing closer to Jesus through the means of grace results in them being more like Jesus.
Anyways, I tend to avoid "super duper Christians", too.
I might be totally wrong on my suspicions, though.
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Hi kaylagrl,
I’m looking at the “nature” of sin.... by that I mean “born that way.”
In Adam, we’re born with a sinful nature that desires sin.
In Christ, we’re born with a spiritual nature that desires God.
A true born again believer will not desire sin, but will still struggle with sin in their soul and body - just not in our “nature” anymore.
Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. With the power of God’s Holy Spirit and the power of God’s Word, our minds can be renewed in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
The more the mind is renewed, the more our emotions and will line up with God’s.
It’s a process - line upon line, precept upon precept, being filled with the Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Basically, we’re God’s children learning how to walk.
I’m looking at the “nature” of sin.... by that I mean “born that way.”
In Adam, we’re born with a sinful nature that desires sin.
In Christ, we’re born with a spiritual nature that desires God.
A true born again believer will not desire sin, but will still struggle with sin in their soul and body - just not in our “nature” anymore.
Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. With the power of God’s Holy Spirit and the power of God’s Word, our minds can be renewed in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God.
The more the mind is renewed, the more our emotions and will line up with God’s.
It’s a process - line upon line, precept upon precept, being filled with the Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Basically, we’re God’s children learning how to walk.
Yes, I believe you are saying we are a new creature, old things are passed away. We're not "sinners" in the sense of those who are lost, but we are not perfectly sinless. If I don't have that right feel free to tell me.
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Oh dear, you've written much...... it would take me forever to respond to everything you have said. I've been trying to respond to everyone, but it is becoming a bit wearisome. So, I will just simply say...
Dear kind and wonderful @UnitedWithChrist - God sees you, knows you and loves you so tenderly and so dearly. Saving you, restoring and redeeming you is God's Work, NOT yours. He will accomplish what He began in you.
All we have to do is just "receive" by faith ALL that He does for us and wants to give us and be grateful and thankful and cooperate with His Holy Spirit so we will be ready at His coming to reap us from the Earth.
God wants our hearts and our minds to be stayed on Him - He will take care of EVERYTHING that concerns us if we keep our hearts and minds on Him, not because of "duty" but because of joy and love for Him.
God bless you! You are loved....
Dear kind and wonderful @UnitedWithChrist - God sees you, knows you and loves you so tenderly and so dearly. Saving you, restoring and redeeming you is God's Work, NOT yours. He will accomplish what He began in you.
All we have to do is just "receive" by faith ALL that He does for us and wants to give us and be grateful and thankful and cooperate with His Holy Spirit so we will be ready at His coming to reap us from the Earth.
God wants our hearts and our minds to be stayed on Him - He will take care of EVERYTHING that concerns us if we keep our hearts and minds on Him, not because of "duty" but because of joy and love for Him.
God bless you! You are loved....
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I agree with a lot of what you've said which is surprising because I see a lot of people disagree with you. It could simply be that you are a bit "dustier/intellectual" than others are and why there is at times a rift. I'll confess I don't really understand calvinism completely but neither do I fully understand election in general.
There's so much that I don't fully get (and I don't think anyone really can) that I'm not inclined to pass judgement for myself until I meet that person.
I think the Lord operates within our understanding and answers the questions in such a way that is uniquely "us" but at the same time, we should be able to agree in practice (like in prayer, ministry) but on "paper" things will probably look different. I find that in almost all denominational walks and theological backgrounds I can usually find some in these areas that seem like "kin" to me.
There are a lot of differences I notice in preachers/teachers/theologians and when I dig deep I can usually find ecumenical common ground, but I need a pretty specific reason as my idly curious forays in and of myself are usually unfruitful except for base suspicions that are sometimes later dispelled on a personal level (the individual, not the beliefs)
I would encourage you though that if someone uses Yeshua vs Jesus not to leap to any conclusions. It irritated me when another person did that and said similar things...that I was a judaizer and that whatever else I said, they are automatically going to be suspicious of everything because I consider that his real name (names are very important to me) and that Jesus has been dragged through the dirt by the world so much that it just feels cleaner somehow. I won't be explicit with all the places I've heard it and the manner in which it has been used, but I don't hear it used in such a fashion in greek (Hebrew I thought was Joshua), so for me it's just a little more "untainted"
I didn't learn of the name by conventional means and in a way it seemed more appropriate for certain moods. I can't explain it.
I like to think that erroneous beliefs will be "outgrown" in time and it's best not to focus overmuch on these shortcomings as not everyone is a deep thinker and on the flip-side I definitely have feeling areas to grow in.
You are correct though that those movements are "troubling" to say the least and at worst "at enmity" with the Lord. Same thing though, I can't say until I've met the person and had my eyes opened to them specifically (which happens randomly to me it seems) but it is pretty neat when it happens.
There's so much that I don't fully get (and I don't think anyone really can) that I'm not inclined to pass judgement for myself until I meet that person.
I think the Lord operates within our understanding and answers the questions in such a way that is uniquely "us" but at the same time, we should be able to agree in practice (like in prayer, ministry) but on "paper" things will probably look different. I find that in almost all denominational walks and theological backgrounds I can usually find some in these areas that seem like "kin" to me.
There are a lot of differences I notice in preachers/teachers/theologians and when I dig deep I can usually find ecumenical common ground, but I need a pretty specific reason as my idly curious forays in and of myself are usually unfruitful except for base suspicions that are sometimes later dispelled on a personal level (the individual, not the beliefs)
I would encourage you though that if someone uses Yeshua vs Jesus not to leap to any conclusions. It irritated me when another person did that and said similar things...that I was a judaizer and that whatever else I said, they are automatically going to be suspicious of everything because I consider that his real name (names are very important to me) and that Jesus has been dragged through the dirt by the world so much that it just feels cleaner somehow. I won't be explicit with all the places I've heard it and the manner in which it has been used, but I don't hear it used in such a fashion in greek (Hebrew I thought was Joshua), so for me it's just a little more "untainted"
I didn't learn of the name by conventional means and in a way it seemed more appropriate for certain moods. I can't explain it.
I like to think that erroneous beliefs will be "outgrown" in time and it's best not to focus overmuch on these shortcomings as not everyone is a deep thinker and on the flip-side I definitely have feeling areas to grow in.
You are correct though that those movements are "troubling" to say the least and at worst "at enmity" with the Lord. Same thing though, I can't say until I've met the person and had my eyes opened to them specifically (which happens randomly to me it seems) but it is pretty neat when it happens.
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You are correct. We are a new creation in Christ, our old "sinful nature" that we got from Adam is gone. We have been born again in Christ with His incorruptible seed of the Word of God and by His Spirit. We now have a "spiritual nature" that does NOT desire sin. We struggle with "sin" in our soul and body" which is our "flesh" but, we do NOT struggle with sin in our "nature."
1 Peter 1:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Our soul (mind, will and emotions) are in need of being restored and our physical body is in need of being redeemed from the grave (which will happen when Christ returns and our bodies are resurrected and become new).
The Holy Spirit with God's Word transforms us by the renewing of our mind with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God slowly - line upon line, precept upon precept we are being taught The Word of God by the Holy Spirit of God. We are God's children being taught by God, NOT by man.
1 John 2:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
As our minds become renewed, our emotions and our will also get renewed and we begin to think, feel and choose according to the perfect will of God for us. It's a process and takes time. During the process, we stumble over our flesh (soul and body), but ask for forgiveness, get back up and keep learning how to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Carnal Christians are saved, but are operating in their flesh because they have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Spirit or they are simply resisting, quenching or grieving the Holy Spirit. They can easily be led astray into "works" and think they have to "maintain" their salvation. They really just need to embrace the Holy Spirit and get on with letting God restore their soul.
In our flesh we will bicker and fight among ourselves and look just like the world, but God is patient and will finish what He started.
1 Peter 1:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Our soul (mind, will and emotions) are in need of being restored and our physical body is in need of being redeemed from the grave (which will happen when Christ returns and our bodies are resurrected and become new).
The Holy Spirit with God's Word transforms us by the renewing of our mind with the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God slowly - line upon line, precept upon precept we are being taught The Word of God by the Holy Spirit of God. We are God's children being taught by God, NOT by man.
1 John 2:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
As our minds become renewed, our emotions and our will also get renewed and we begin to think, feel and choose according to the perfect will of God for us. It's a process and takes time. During the process, we stumble over our flesh (soul and body), but ask for forgiveness, get back up and keep learning how to walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Carnal Christians are saved, but are operating in their flesh because they have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Spirit or they are simply resisting, quenching or grieving the Holy Spirit. They can easily be led astray into "works" and think they have to "maintain" their salvation. They really just need to embrace the Holy Spirit and get on with letting God restore their soul.
In our flesh we will bicker and fight among ourselves and look just like the world, but God is patient and will finish what He started.
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Hello @Lafftur, I believe as Christians, we will still sin and mess up. In this since we are sinners. However in accepting Jesus and believing on him, we are given his righteousness. In this way we are saints in Christ. And yet we are still growing and learning and won't be perfect till we see Jesus.
So we sin but sinner is not the whole of who we are. Much like how one may have a heath problem but they are so much more than a diagnosis. Everyone of us is loved by God and a person who Christ came to save.
So we sin but sinner is not the whole of who we are. Much like how one may have a heath problem but they are so much more than a diagnosis. Everyone of us is loved by God and a person who Christ came to save.
Power of the Blood of Jesus is forgiveness of sins.
Not sure what you mean by power of body of Christ.
Power of the Holy Spirit is the same power of God. It's resurrection power and more.
God loves me a whole lot. He is my Shepherd. And Saviour. He came for me. Once when holding my baby niece for a moment, I felt that love and bonding feeling through me and I just wanted to protect her. God loves me like that and more.
Not sure what you mean by power of body of Christ
.Power of the Holy Spirit is the same power of God. It's resurrection power and more.
God loves me a whole lot. He is my Shepherd. And Saviour. He came for me. Once when holding my baby niece for a moment, I felt that love and bonding feeling through me and I just wanted to protect her. God loves me like that and more.
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