Does Anyone Here Teach The Following?

[preacher4truth]

why do you always put ff or some letters after bible verses?????? is that for some reason or just habit or auto type?

Sorry, that means the following verses as well. Like if I said John 3:16ff it means to see it and the next verses too.

 

[Ariel82]

How does Luciferianism apply to this thread?

 

[ForthAngel]

Yes, there are still unbelievers . . . . [/COLOR]of course, the Bible endures for ever and is God's heart to ALL generations.

Well . . . . Since the context doesn't specifically say "elect" but says "not willing that ANY should perish but ALL come to repentance" - I will believe what the scripture is actually saying. As I said people that are already in the body of Christ (the church) should have already repented so why would God have to wait on them to repent?

This is verse 9 from the previous chapter:

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment

The wicked are kept under perpetual punishment until the day of judgment. Why would in the very next chapter God say he is patiently waiting on someone he is keeping in perpetual condemnation? Chapter 3 is to give the church peace when scoffers start asking them why hasn't their Christ returned. Again, it seems more to me to be addressed to a future generation since it is in regards to the return of Christ. God is patiently waiting for the elect to come to repentance. There are still more to be saved yet. This should be a comfort for us who are waiting with him and a reminder to be patient and not be shaken.

The context doesn't say elect, but the chapter itself is addressed to the beloved and from then on is referred back to as you. God is patient toward you (the beloved, the church, the elect), not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. Just because the sentence has the words any and all, it doesn't mean any and all people because they are clearly defined by the toward you in the very first part of the same sentence.

God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I may catch some flack for this, but you know I lean toward Annihilationism as well. There are some other reformed believers I know who lean toward it as well. I still won't take a solid stance on it though. I see good arguments both ways. When I see everywhere talking about second death, death, destruction, trampled to ashes underfoot, and only one verse in a highly allegorized book about "the smoke of their torment rising forever", I would rather interpret it with everything else that came before it that is plainly death/destruction.

Jesus died and was not annihiliated. Death never means cease to exist but separation.

The body is dead, void of life, because the spirit has left that body. Our spirits are dead because of being separated from God. Now, being separated from God makes our spirits dead in the same manner the body is dead when its spirit leaves it. It has no will to exercise to bring life to it. In the same manner, our spirits do not have a will that can will it back to life. Only God can will it to life.

So, I see annihilation as heresy. We don't burn up and are no more. Ppl will reside in the lake of fire for as long as ppl reside in heaven.

 

[Depleted]

Ever notice with the usual reformers that when you catch them explaining or agreeing with double predestination without really saying it, they scream we are lying about them and have no clue what their doctrine is and then they go after people and then talk out of both sides of their mouth?

A parlor trick of reformers is without any doubt not to get caught talking about double predestination with outsiders. reformers believe that This is knowledge is simply to great for other small minds, they get gnostic about it and claim to have special knowledge about it, which God hides from the non-elect.

I have sat in services as a kid listening to a angry bitter evangelist telling parents not to cry if their baby died and went to hell cuz it was all God's doin and chosin....and ifn yer baby was not elect...it went to hell.

They completely hide this from outsiders because it is an area they have no defense for, other than telling you, all men are bound for hell...just like the usual suspects here are trying to say.

And what do you do? Glory in your arrogance and hypocrisy. Why are you better?

You remind me of a used car salesman at a sleazy outfit. Act all nice, until you find out the potential customer doesn't want what you're selling. Then you turn to be exactly what the outfit wants you to be -- sleazy.

I guess your mask fell off.

You know why I am now calling you a liar? Because you just ran down a bunch of lies about reformers based on your bitterness toward your father. If this is what you really think of your dad, you'll need a lot more work on your forgiveness skills. You're still sitting in the anger and bitterness, and take it out on who? Again, why are you better?

 

[Depleted]

Quite the contrary, The spirit bears witness with my Spirit that I am a son of God.
You wont have a clue, so do not bother asking me to explain.

This beats having to wonder all the time, am I elected or not....another thing you all hide quite nicely.

Your spirit of anger and bitterness? Might want to check your spirit closer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The death, burial and resurrection of Christ was for all who have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All without exception . . . . . Romans 4:24,25 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed (righteousness v22), if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. He rose for our justification . . . our with distinction, i.e. if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead
Goodbye Universalism.

The lost are those who do not believe and since they do not believe their sins have not been forgiven, they have no part in the atonement and therefore are not reconciled to God.

Sissy, you're missing what I am saying. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection actually accomplishes what it was intended to accomplish.

The bible says He rose for our justification. It does not say He rose to give someone a shot at being saved, but rose for our justification. It actually accomplishes justification. If the Christ rose for everyone, and we know not everyone will be saved, then how did He rise for their justification if they died condemned?

To be justified is to be declared righteous before God. Those the Christ rose for will be declared righteous before God.

It says also we are justified...declared righteous...by faith. It does not say we are justified when we exercise faith, but are justified by faith. So, if everybody w/o exception, has faith, then everybody w/o exception is justified. And if everybody is justified, everybody is saved.

 

[Depleted]

save it for a novice ace. You were indoctrinated and you know it. You did not learn about how to mock, label defend the faith and try to convert unreformed believers from sitting in the window sill and reading your Bible.

Man up and own something already. I do not know which is worse, your lack of complete disregard for others and what they believe or the fact you have little backbone to owning that you are a die hard in the wool Calvinist Reformer and adhere to all of TULIP.

Your pea is the same pod, babe.

 

[ForthAngel]

Jesus died and was not annihiliated. Death never means cease to exist but separation.

The body is dead, void of life, because the spirit has left that body. Our spirits are dead because of being separated from God. Now, being separated from God makes our spirits dead in the same manner the body is dead when its spirit leaves it. It has no will to exercise to bring life to it. In the same manner, our spirits do not have a will that can will it back to life. Only God can will it to life.

So, I see annihilation as heresy. We don't burn up and are no more. Ppl will reside in the lake of fire for as long as ppl reside in heaven.

Where does it ever say death means separation and not ceasing to exist though? Death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and is called the second death at the end of all things. That seems like a finality. Also, Jesus said fear not those who can destroy the body but the one who can destroy both body and soul. That again sounds like finality. Tons of other verses that make it seem like a finality too.

I haven't studied it a lot honestly. Could be heresy, but I know others who are reformed like me in every other way but this one thing. A friend of mine asked James White about it on his radio program and I wasn't satisfied with James' answer which was a bit disappointing.

Again, I don't embrace annihilation fully, but I do lean toward it more than eternal conscious torment.

Also, Jesus is God and is eternal.

It doesn't make sense to me that we are promised eternal life and the lost are never promised eternal life, but death. Do they eat of the tree of life as we will then get thrown into the lake of fire?

Honestly, I should study this because it is an important thing to understand.

 

[Depleted]

Predestination is real,
just not the fatalistic view

Predestination is predestination. That you want it also to be called fatalism is simply the propaganda being applied to Reformers. Sort of like repeating, "The Russians manipulated the Presidential election." If said often enough, maybe it becomes truth.

 

[Depleted]

Don't you just love his passive-aggressive drive-by post?

I'm not loving this thread much at all right now. Arrogance on both sides. Feels quite a bit like who can be more melodramatic and cruel. And I can't say which side is winning in either category.

But PennEd? Neither passive-aggressive nor drive-by. Probably one of the few smart ones because he doesn't take this post by post. (Or, he's just really good at keeping quiet at the right times, and then speaking up at the right times.)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where does it ever say death means separation and not ceasing to exist though? Death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire and is called the second death at the end of all things. That seems like a finality. Also, Jesus said fear not those who can destroy the body but the one who can destroy both body and soul. That again sounds like finality. Tons of other verses that make it seem like a finality too.

I haven't studied it a lot honestly. Could be heresy, but I know others who are reformed like me in every other way but this one thing. A friend of mine asked James White about it on his radio program and I wasn't satisfied with James' answer which was a bit disappointing.

Again, I don't embrace annihilation fully, but I do lean toward it more than eternal conscious torment.

Also, Jesus is God and is eternal.

It doesn't make sense to me that we are promised eternal life and the lost are never promised eternal life, but death. Do they eat of the tree of life as we will then get thrown into the lake of fire?

Honestly, I should study this because it is an important thing to understand.

Jesus tasted death. Was He annihilated? When Lazarus and the rich man died, did they suffer annihilation? The rich man in hell, surrounded by flames possessed all his senses.

He wasn't burned up with flames encompassing him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

By annihilated, I mean when Jesus died, did he cease to exist? Not that He suffered and was burned up in hell.

 

[Depleted]

Whatever Lynn, you were not there, so your comment means nothing to me. These were Independent Fundamental Baptist reformed folks back in the mid and late 70's.

No, I wasn't there. Kind of the point. NOR have you been to every other reformed church either. THE point! You're arrogance, anger, and bitterness is all based out of one church you grew up in. Worse yet, you were a kid, so not like you had a clear picture. you had a kid's picture.

And what do you do with that? Paint every Reformed like your dad.

I know my comment means nothing to you. All you're doing is unleashing your wrath on everyone who is not YOU. Has this ever been about God to you? Or was it always about selling your lemon?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This is verse 9 from the previous chapter:

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment

The wicked are kept under perpetual punishment until the day of judgment. Why would in the very next chapter God say he is patiently waiting on someone he is keeping in perpetual condemnation? Chapter 3 is to give the church peace when scoffers start asking them why hasn't their Christ returned. Again, it seems more to me to be addressed to a future generation since it is in regards to the return of Christ. God is patiently waiting for the elect to come to repentance. There are still more to be saved yet. This should be a comfort for us who are waiting with him and a reminder to be patient and not be shaken.

Where does it say that God is patiently awaiting the "elect" to come to repentance? It's just like when Eve added a word to the commandment of God which he did not say: "ye shall not 'touch' it" . . . . God does deliver his people . . . the unjust that are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished are those who do not come to repentance even up until the end - they will be condemned. Again, you add something that is not there "perpetual condemnation". I agree that Peter is giving the church peace against scoffers. It is a comfort to the church and to ALL that God is longsuffering and does not wish ANY to perish.

The context doesn't say elect, but the chapter itself is addressed to the beloved and from then on is referred back to as you. God is patient toward you (the beloved, the church, the elect), not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. Just because the sentence has the words any and all, it doesn't mean any and all people because they are clearly defined by the toward you in the very first part of the same sentence.

In order to be a member in the body of Christ, wouldn't one have to have already repented, turned from their evil ways and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins? And if this is true then why would God be waiting for the church to repent? (to me the elect are the church)
God already knows who are his. I think you would agree with that right? He is omniscient? It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him. Context shows that the beloved (that is the church, the bride, the elect) are being addressed.[/QUOTE]
So God foreknows ALL people . . . ? What do we do with this then . . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed into the image of his dear Son. . .whom he did predestinate them he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . . Oops - there's universalism lifting it's head again!

"It would be pointless for him to have patience toward people he knows will never come to him" . . . . exactly why man has free will to come to belief in his Son, Jesus Christ. Those that believe are his . . . You think maybe God is letting his church know because of the scoffers that come mocking the time that has lapsed and Christ hasn't returned yet - that time is nothing to him . . But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing . . . the Lord is not slack concerning his promise - what promise? since it goes into his longsuffering and not wanting any to perish but that all come to repentance - the promise of eternal life to those who believe . . . . the church already has that, the church has repented, the church is the elect.

 

[ForthAngel]

Jesus tasted death. Was He annihilated? When Lazarus and the rich man died, did they suffer annihilation? The rich man in hell, surrounded by flames possessed all his senses.

He wasn't burned up with flames encompassing him.

Jesus is immortal because he is God. We aren't. And no, I don't think he ceased to exist.

Though one thing I will probably concede to at the least is conditional immortality, but it still seems that the spirit of a lost person is promised death, not life in any form. Those that are saved are promised life.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, if folks thought they were lying, one would hope they would stop.

Most people actually believe what they say.

Most of I see it as hostility and defensive behavior mixed in with lots of strawmen from both sides.

There are a handful of folks from both sides, if ignored the rest could have decent convo with....but instead everyone read their lies and strawmen and attack the respective straw man that is just a caricature of the other person's theological position.

Then it becomes a fighting match with both sides feeling misrepresented and attacked.

This is what I'm hearing.

It's blue.

No, it's really not. It's yellow.

No, it's blue.

Well, you see it's yellow, because it's a bright color, and (followed by several other reasons yellow is not blue.)

It's blue.

Did you hear me? It can't be blue because...

Yes, I heard you. You said it's red, but it's blue, because blue is better than red.

Well, maybe blue is better than red, but it's yellow.

Stop believing it's red.

I don't believe it's red. It's yellow.

Everyone knows it's blue, except you people keep insisting it's red.

And, frankly, although I do think it's yellow, stop telling me I think it's red. Yeesh!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus is immortal because he is God. We aren't. And no, I don't think he ceased to exist.

Though one thing I will probably concede to at the least is conditional immortality, but it still seems that the spirit of a lost person is promised death, not life in any form. Those that are saved are promised life.

Well, the rich man was in flames and wasn't burned up, so it shows me the lost have spirits that won't be comsummed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is what I'm hearing.

It's blue.

No, it's really not. It's yellow.

No, it's blue.

Well, you see it's yellow, because it's a bright color, and (followed by several other reasons yellow is not blue.)

It's blue.

Did you hear me? It can't be blue because...

Yes, I heard you. You said it's red, but it's blue, because blue is better than red.

Well, maybe blue is better than red, but it's yellow.

Stop believing it's red.

I don't believe it's red. It's yellow.

Everyone knows it's blue, except you people keep insisting it's red.

And, frankly, although I do think it's yellow, stop telling me I think it's red. Yeesh!

Actually, its magenta.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, I have no beef with you. The one that stirs it up and spews venom, then sits back smugly and acts like a docile little lamb is preacher4truth. These are the ones I remember growing up around and what my Dad used to be.

And yes they are taught these things, your reformed circles may be different, and thats fine. I am not painting you with the same brush.

I see his venom. I see your venom matches pound for pound, and yet you think you're trying to tame three people's venom?