God did away with some of His own sayings

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus Christ

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Magenta again

 

[just-me]

see post 598

I'm really asking both Ben and Just what's the deal with that second contract? What's the purpose of the first? What is our part in it -- then and now, old and new?

I see the same rules still apply, but now we have someone assisting us to do those rules because we want to because we love him. I also see where as I may want to keep the Sabbath holy most the time, there are times when it seems to me I have "the right" to labor on that day simply because I feel like it. (THAT is willfully sinning, no matter how you want to slice that, but Jesus still has his signature on the contract, so he still owns me and doesn't give up on me for willing sin.) So, still not always perfect in it, but he's got me more willing to do it than I used to be in the first contract.

What do you two think in my analogy?

I agree with your analogy. The contents of the container called the Old Covenant didn't fail just because Israel failed to live up to it. We are no different. In ourselves we can't either. The contents of the Old Covenant was transferred to a New container called the New Covenant with the same ingredients of the old one. The old Container has been discarded, and the sacrifices of the priesthood have been forever fulfilled. Now, through Christ Jesus our High Priest, we have access to the holy place by presenting ourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable through Christ. It's reasonable don'tchaknow?

 

[BenFTW]

Sorry in delay for responding, but this is where I can finally open my big fat mouth, and then, when I could, sure enough, I couldn't sleep so couldn't think clearly enough to follow through. Arrrggghhhh!!!

I'm glad the two of you finally settled things, because nothing got settled in my mind. lol

Here is my analogy to the law. I'd like both of you to let me know if you agree or don't agree -- obviously giving rooms for "but."

Covenant is a contract. Let's put it into a contract most of us have experience in signing -- an apartment lease. The landlord is God.

Here are the conditions of us living in the apartment:
2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,
6 and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.
We sign the dotted line with all plans to fulfill our end, fully aware the oxen looks better than the neighbor's wife anyway. (I'm kidding, but honestly, don't we do that? Look in the law for what we would have no problems doing, and ignoring the obvious parts where there is no way we can do that?)

Well, that doesn't last long. We fail. The landlord has all rights to kick us out. Not just kick us out -- destroy us and put us into everlasting hell. But he has a soft spot for us that equals his demand to keep the law, so he pulls out the same contract and has his son sign it in blood. Then the son moves in and works with us to keep the contract.

Now what? Do we point to him and say, "you did it, so lah-dee-dah! I don't have to"? Do we say, "Not my problem anymore. You fulfilled it"? Do we say, "It's not the same contract, so I really don't have to worry about it"?

I'm really asking both Ben and Just what's the deal with that second contract? What's the purpose of the first? What is our part in it -- then and now, old and new?

I see the same rules still apply, but now we have someone assisting us to do those rules because we want to because we love him. I also see where as I may want to keep the Sabbath holy most the time, there are times when it seems to me I have "the right" to labor on that day simply because I feel like it. (THAT is willfully sinning, no matter how you want to slice that, but Jesus still has his signature on the contract, so he still owns me and doesn't give up on me for willing sin.) So, still not always perfect in it, but he's got me more willing to do it than I used to be in the first contract.

What do you two think in my analogy?

I don't think the analogy works because its more like the Son paid for the bill indefinitely, he fulfilled all requirements. He pretty much put us up in another house, where he gives us free reign to do what we want and we are in liberty. This isn't a license to sin per se, but he has freed us from the penalty of the Law (contract) which is to fall short of God's glory (perfection). He then put us under a new covenant that isn't based on rules and regulations but grace. So in actuality we have no rules (of that house) to follow, because we are no longer under that roof. We live in the liberty of a new place where your relationship to the owner is based upon His grace, there is no charge. He just wants to fellowship with you. He adopted you (by the Spirit of Adoption).

The error is that he didn't pull out the same contract, he made a new one completely contrary to the old. Where before you had rules and regulations, you now... are a free loader. haha You enjoy the benefits without the rules, its no longer blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Its blessings all around, due to the Son. This isn't to say there isn't chastisement because you are now His child and he wants the best for you. No matter how you act, you will always be a child of His, its in the blood (Jesus').

I am not sure if I made a good explanation of the analogy to make it fit in line with scripture, but made an attempt to. The Law has no relation to us, we are dead to it. We have died and risen with Christ (think baptism). We are a new creation. We don't serve in the oldness of the letter but in the newness of the spirit. We are under no obligation to fulfill a covenant we are no longer under, it is fulfilled. The contract is fulfilled. Stop making payments.

 

[Magenta]

It is active again now!

I saw that

 

[KennethC]

I don't think the analogy works because its more like the Son paid for the bill indefinitely, he fulfilled all requirements. He pretty much put us up in another house, where he gives us free reign to do what we want and we are in liberty. This isn't a license to sin per se, but he has freed us from the penalty of the Law (contract) which is to fall short of God's glory (perfection). He then put us under a new covenant that isn't based on rules and regulations but grace. So in actuality we have no rules (of that house) to follow, because we are no longer under that roof. We live in the liberty of a new place where your relationship to the owner is based upon His grace, there is no charge. He just wants to fellowship with you. He adopted you (by the Spirit of Adoption).

The error is that he didn't pull out the same contract, he made a new one completely contrary to the old. Where before you had rules and regulations, you now... are a free loader. haha You enjoy the benefits without the rules, its no longer blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Its blessings all around, due to the Son. This isn't to say there isn't chastisement because you are now His child and he wants the best for you. No matter how you act, you will always be a child of His, its in the blood (Jesus').

I am not sure if I made a good explanation of the analogy to make it fit in line with scripture, but made an attempt to. The Law has no relation to us, we are dead to it. We have died and risen with Christ (think baptism). We are a new creation. We don't serve in the oldness of the letter but in the newness of the spirit. We are under no obligation to fulfill a covenant we are no longer under, it is fulfilled. The contract is fulfilled. Stop making payments.

Where do you get that enlarged from because Apostle Paul nowhere says we can live however we want because of in liberty.

This is what Paul says about liberty:

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

This here Apostle Paul is saying that being called to liberty we can not use that to continue to live everyday sinful lives.

Yes we have been freed from the penalty/curse of the law, but there still remains judgment and a fiery indignation to those who do not obey the Truth in the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 clearly show this)

The Lord Jesus did bring in a new better way in the New Covenant and did not carry over the Old Covenant for believers. However the laws Him and Paul both show still have meaning to those who are under it, as for the Spiritual aspect that applies to us.

Now do not take that as nothing is done by us because the Spiritual will show out in our physical actions.

Also in James 1:25 the liberty you have spoken on James says here it is, "the perfect law of liberty."
This is because the liberty we are under is how the Lord told us to walk and what to do in the New Covenant !!!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Where do you get that enlarged from because Apostle Paul nowhere says we can live however we want because of in liberty.

This is what Paul says about liberty:

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

This here Apostle Paul is saying that being called to liberty we can not use that to continue to live everyday sinful lives.

Yes we have been freed from the penalty/curse of the law, but there still remains judgment and a fiery indignation to those who do not obey the Truth in the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 clearly show this)

The Lord Jesus did bring in a new better way in the New Covenant and did not carry over the Old Covenant for believers. However the laws Him and Paul both show still have meaning to those who are under it, as for the Spiritual aspect that applies to us.

Now do not take that as nothing is done by us because the Spiritual will show out in our physical actions.

Also in James 1:25 the liberty you have spoken on James says here it is, "the perfect law of liberty."
This is because the liberty we are under is how the Lord told us to walk and what to do in the New Covenant !!!

Why can't we live as we want??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why can't we live as we want??

How can I know how great God is, and how right God is about things, if I can't make a mistake? If I am forced to do something or else. There is no love, only duty

 

[atwhatcost]

see post 598


I agree with your analogy. The contents of the container called the Old Covenant didn't fail just because Israel failed to live up to it. We are no different. In ourselves we can't either. The contents of the Old Covenant was transferred to a New container called the New Covenant with the same ingredients of the old one. The old Container has been discarded, and the sacrifices of the priesthood have been forever fulfilled. Now, through Christ Jesus our High Priest, we have access to the holy place by presenting ourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable through Christ. It's reasonable don'tchaknow?

One of my big hiccups with the willful sin area (and one that's not too embarrassing to admit in public) is Sabbath Day rest. That says to me, spend time with God, relax, chores are off the table, don't work, do whatever you want.

Problem. One of the things I instantly want to do is play in my garden. But I don't play. I just spent the last three hours watering it, fixing the lucky bamboo, checking how the plants have fared since a rain a few days ago, cut a bouquet, weed, empty containers out in that rain, .... Definitely not resting. Seems to me playing is resting, even if it's work, but rest is rest, so work isn't rest. Without the OT to tell me what rest means, (and, yeesh! You'd think the dictionary should work for me, but they could be wrong lol), I would think working in my garden is rest. My heart says to work on Sabbath. God's word says not to. I sometimes disregard God's word -- intentionally. You tell me anyone who sins intentionally isn't saved.

So, am I saved? You keep saying God's people will keep our hearts directed to God, but I really know I don't. I sometimes give him a "wait right there, I'll be right back" as I go off apart from his word. The flesh does win.

And the Sabbath Day rest is simply the least embarrassing one to mention.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of my big hiccups with the willful sin area (and one that's not too embarrassing to admit in public) is Sabbath Day rest. That says to me, spend time with God, relax, chores are off the table, don't work, do whatever you want.

Problem. One of the things I instantly want to do is play in my garden. But I don't play. I just spent the last three hours watering it, fixing the lucky bamboo, checking how the plants have fared since a rain a few days ago, cut a bouquet, weed, empty containers out in that rain, .... Definitely not resting. Seems to me playing is resting, even if it's work, but rest is rest, so work isn't rest. Without the OT to tell me what rest means, (and, yeesh! You'd think the dictionary should work for me, but they could be wrong lol), I would think working in my garden is rest. My heart says to work on Sabbath. God's word says not to. I sometimes disregard God's word -- intentionally. You tell me anyone who sins intentionally isn't saved.

So, am I saved? You keep saying God's people will keep our hearts directed to God, but I really know I don't. I sometimes give him a "wait right there, I'll be right back" as I go off apart from his word. The flesh does win.

And the Sabbath Day rest is simply the least embarrassing one to mention.

Anyone who states they do not sin intentionally, is just trying to hide their sin, or outright deny it altogether Both of which are dangerous things to do.

 

[KennethC]

Why can't we live as we want??

Because the bible clearly says that we can not under the new covenant of grace, as Apostle Paul more then once says and shows how we can and can not walk in the faith.

Peter, John, and James all do the same thing showing how if you are walking one way you do not have eternal life abiding in you. But if you walk by the Spirit (His fruit) then you do have eternal life abiding in you !!!

Nowhere does the bible say we can live however we want and be saved both, or that would open that door as we have been saying all along that a person can live a deliberate sinful lifestyle and still be saved living that way.

The Word of God refutes that thinking and says in no way can we take and use the gospel of Jesus into accepting sinful lifestyles (lewdness). It says those who do that are accursed and bring condemnation on themselves !!!

 

[BenFTW]

Where do you get that enlarged from because Apostle Paul nowhere says we can live however we want because of in liberty.

This is what Paul says about liberty:

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

This here Apostle Paul is saying that being called to liberty we can not use that to continue to live everyday sinful lives.

Yes we have been freed from the penalty/curse of the law, but there still remains judgment and a fiery indignation to those who do not obey the Truth in the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 clearly show this)

The Lord Jesus did bring in a new better way in the New Covenant and did not carry over the Old Covenant for believers. However the laws Him and Paul both show still have meaning to those who are under it, as for the Spiritual aspect that applies to us.

Now do not take that as nothing is done by us because the Spiritual will show out in our physical actions.

Also in James 1:25 the liberty you have spoken on James says here it is, "the perfect law of liberty."
This is because the liberty we are under is how the Lord told us to walk and what to do in the New Covenant !!!

That was probably bad word choice, in certain respects. It may give you the idea that we have a license to sin, as the assumption is always jumped to. What I mean by free reign is not that we should sin all we want but that we are not under obligation to the follow the Law. I clarified this in the post saying that we are His children and He chastises us because He cares for our well-being. We don't live under rules and regulations, we live in liberty that sets us free from sin. What the Law could not do, Christ did through His sacrifice. We have victory in grace, not Law.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Because the bible clearly says that we can not under the new covenant of grace, as Apostle Paul more then once says and shows how we can and can not walk in the faith.

Peter, John, and James all do the same thing showing how if you are walking one way you do not have eternal life abiding in you. But if you walk by the Spirit (His fruit) then you do have eternal life abiding in you !!!

Nowhere does the bible say we can live however we want and be saved both, or that would open that door as we have been saying all along that a person can live a deliberate sinful lifestyle and still be saved living that way.

The Word of God refutes that thinking and says in no way can we take and use the gospel of Jesus into accepting sinful lifestyles (lewdness). It says those who do that are accursed and bring condemnation on themselves !!!

You're saying that if you live however you want, what you will want is to sin??

 

[just-me]

One of my big hiccups with the willful sin area (and one that's not too embarrassing to admit in public) is Sabbath Day rest. That says to me, spend time with God, relax, chores are off the table, don't work, do whatever you want.

Problem. One of the things I instantly want to do is play in my garden. But I don't play. I just spent the last three hours watering it, fixing the lucky bamboo, checking how the plants have fared since a rain a few days ago, cut a bouquet, weed, empty containers out in that rain, .... Definitely not resting. Seems to me playing is resting, even if it's work, but rest is rest, so work isn't rest. Without the OT to tell me what rest means, (and, yeesh! You'd think the dictionary should work for me, but they could be wrong lol), I would think working in my garden is rest. My heart says to work on Sabbath. God's word says not to. I sometimes disregard God's word -- intentionally. You tell me anyone who sins intentionally isn't saved.

So, am I saved? You keep saying God's people will keep our hearts directed to God, but I really know I don't. I sometimes give him a "wait right there, I'll be right back" as I go off apart from his word. The flesh does win.

And the Sabbath Day rest is simply the least embarrassing one to mention.

Doing the Lord's work on the Sabbath is in accordance with the law. Servile work for oneself for profit is what is forbidden during these Sabbath days. Jesus worked on the Sabbath. In fact, He worked every Sabbath day. That was in accordance with the law. Get a load of this, and you will see it's closely related to your working in your garden.

This is concerning the first day of the feast of tabernacles when Israel was doing the Lord's work and building booths to live in for a week.

Leviticus 23:39-40
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That was probably bad word choice, in certain respects. It may give you the idea that we have a license to sin, as the assumption is always jumped to. What I mean by free reign is not that we should sin all we want but that we are not under obligation to the follow the Law. I clarified this in the post saying that we are His children and He chastises us because He cares for our well-being. We don't live under rules and regulations, we live in liberty that sets us free from sin. What the Law could not do, Christ did through His sacrifice. We have victory in grace, not Law.

All things are lawful, but not all is profitable

It is called entering Gods rest. One can not rest if they are bound by rules and regulations, they always have to be on their guard, because they may fall short.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're saying that if you live however you want, what you will want is to sin??

lolol.. Well maybe he will maybe he is his worse enemy and he wants to sin so much, He can only keep it in check by following his watered down version of the law.

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't think the analogy works because its more like the Son paid for the bill indefinitely, he fulfilled all requirements. He pretty much put us up in another house, where he gives us free reign to do what we want and we are in liberty. This isn't a license to sin per se, but he has freed us from the penalty of the Law (contract) which is to fall short of God's glory (perfection). He then put us under a new covenant that isn't based on rules and regulations but grace. So in actuality we have no rules (of that house) to follow, because we are no longer under that roof. We live in the liberty of a new place where your relationship to the owner is based upon His grace, there is no charge. He just wants to fellowship with you. He adopted you (by the Spirit of Adoption).

The error is that he didn't pull out the same contract, he made a new one completely contrary to the old. Where before you had rules and regulations, you now... are a free loader. haha You enjoy the benefits without the rules, its no longer blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Its blessings all around, due to the Son. This isn't to say there isn't chastisement because you are now His child and he wants the best for you. No matter how you act, you will always be a child of His, its in the blood (Jesus').

I am not sure if I made a good explanation of the analogy to make it fit in line with scripture, but made an attempt to. The Law has no relation to us, we are dead to it. We have died and risen with Christ (think baptism). We are a new creation. We don't serve in the oldness of the letter but in the newness of the spirit. We are under no obligation to fulfill a covenant we are no longer under, it is fulfilled. The contract is fulfilled. Stop making payments.

My bad. I didn't really state what the home/apartment was. Same place to live. We call it Earth. And we really did fail to keep the original contract, so Jesus signed it.

When I was leasing my first apartment, I had no credit, so Dad had to co-sign the lease, which said if I failed to live up to the contract, he'd fulfill it.

Well, in this case we didn't just have no credit. Our credit has big neon lights blink down at it saying, "don't trust this person's word, because guaranteed it will be broken and everything destroyed." Which is exactly what happened with the first contract. Jesus isn't the co-signer. He's the only signer worthy of his word. He's invite us to stay and live with him knowing who we are. So yes, the loan isn't a loan. It's "Paid in full" by Jesus. But the home is the same place and the contract is the same thing, just a different signer with far better credit and paying cash forever up front. (And, yup. We're still free loaders. lol)

Now we're in his world, so what do we then do? (Which gets into sanctified.)

 

[BenFTW]

All things are lawful, but not all is profitable

It is called entering Gods rest. One can not rest if they are bound by rules and regulations, they always have to be on their guard, because they may fall short.

That revelation might be too extreme for some, and to bring it up amongst legalists will surely cause a ruckus. My parents raised my brother, sister and I in grace. We had the liberty to do that which we wanted, but were made fully aware of the natural consequences. We were not controlled by boundaries but common sense, we had no rules to break but freedom to explore and make the right decisions. In other words, find out what edified.

PS: To an extent, of course parents set some boundaries to lead us in the right direction. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Doing the Lord's work on the Sabbath is in accordance with the law. Servile work for oneself for profit is what is forbidden during these Sabbath days. Jesus worked on the Sabbath. In fact, He worked every Sabbath day. That was in accordance with the law. Get a load of this, and you will see it's closely related to your working in your garden.

This is concerning the first day of the feast of tabernacles when Israel was doing the Lord's work and building booths to live in for a week.

Leviticus 23:39-40
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.

Getting the parts for a tent in nature isn't quite the same thing as hauling down the Lucky Bamboos, then hauling out a bag of pebbles plus a bag of glass stones with a cachepot big and heavy enough that it can't fall over with all those pebbles and stones inside, measuring depth, putting the pieces together,... It's purely a decorative piece with no function other than, "ooo, live bright green plants inside even in the dead of winter." lol

They were gathering wood to make tents because God wanted them to remember He puts in the effort to keep us going. I'm just enjoying this for my own pleasure.

If you want to take this to one that can't be passed off as anything Godly, there is always my reaction to the person who gets in, and stays in, my way when I'm driving or shopping. Sometimes I have the God-given patience to be kind. Sometimes I give the varied gestures that clearly signal my disapproval. (If you've ever delayed moving forward after a light turns green within .3 seconds in Philly, you've heard the sound of disapproval -- a long honk until you do get moving. lol)

 

[KennethC]

You're saying that if you live however you want, what you will want is to sin??

How were you living before you came to the Lord and listened to His words in those teachings and commands ???

Were you not living by the flesh???

Yes you were as we all were, but now being in the faith of Jesus putting us under grace we are commanded not to walk that way any longer as it is bondage that leads to eternal death. Now we are to walk by the Spirit and that way by walking in His righteousness leads to eternal life.

If we could still live however we wanted we would all still live by the flesh as we once did, and how do I know this is true? Do you still commit sin, yes as we all do, but how do you deal with it from here now that in the faith? This is what separates a true saving faith from a false faith in the Lord, as true believers will confess that sin and continue to walk in the Light/Spirit.

Those who do not will continue in those sinful ways and not give them up !!!

 

[KennethC]

That revelation might be too extreme for some, and to bring it up amongst legalists will surely cause a ruckus. My parents raised my brother, sister and I in grace. We had the liberty to do that which we wanted, but were made fully aware of the natural consequences. We were not controlled by boundaries but common sense, we had no rules to break but freedom to explore and make the right decisions. In other words, find out what edified.

PS: To an extent, of course parents set some boundaries to lead us in the right direction. lol

Yet again it comes to how to properly apply what was said in 1 Corinthians of all things being lawful, as there is consequences still for some things and those consequences are not just natural consequences. There is a consequence of judgment and the second death still, as notice how the second half comes with a warning, "but I will not be brought under the power of any."

If you let them take control of your life again which is what the second half of that, then you can go to both Paul and James to see what the consequence is and it is not loss of rewards.