Holiness or sinner

[psalm6819]

Andrew Wommack is like the other "grace" teachers who believe that a born again person cannot become unborn, no matter how much they sin, because their spiritual nature is eternal. This idea is gnosticism, pure and simple. The gnostics believed that the knowledge of their spiritual nature elevated them above, and saved them from, the material world. Christian gnostics think what is born can't be unborn; a circumcised heart can't become uncircumcised; eternal life can't end because it's eternal; a free gift can't be taken away; (I know there's more, just can't remember them).

Why the obsession with gnosticism??? When someone has a different understanding than you immediately the labeling begins....

 

[psalm6819]

This is Christian gnosticism showing its head. The belief that we are saved by our divine nature because divine nature is eternal and incorruptible. A sheep can never revert back to a pig even though it wallows in the mud. A sheep will be saved becasue it has become a sheep.

The gnostics thought that once the divine spark within was awakened through gnosis (special knowledge, correct "lens"), a person could never perish because he was an eternal spirit being that could never be corrupted by sinful practices of the body.

Nope, it's just you see only thru one lense-how everything relates to gnosticism instead of how it relates to the Bible.

 

[PeterJens]

Healing of the heart is very important. I went to this kind of ministries:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9K75AvfyY

My pastor of our church burnt out. I spoke to one counsellors of pastors and it seemed so many were drained out.
Simple lessons about boundaries, knowing what you can achieve and what is impossible or manipulation by another is so important. Our new pastor came and I was talking with a pessimistic friend who said, "You are optimistic now, but when you are empty then it will be different." The reality of living water flowing from the heart is missing in too many.

Part of the problem is emotions are a dirty word. Need is like a disease only the weak need. A man of God is a man of power. On cc it is no different.

I had a friend who counselled alcoholics and mentally ill people. They chewed him up, emotionally, and spat him out. He was a very loving man, but had no clue the minefield he was letting himself walk into. I know this world because I have had to survive it, but with Jesus. Grace and failure are just running away from something much worse, but equally a denial of a victory so much greater in Christ. People here have thrown such junk at me, if I had taken it to heart, it would have caused serious harm. But this is nothing compared to psychos trying to depress you into suicide. They were truly sick, but I could see the damage they could do to a vulnerable person.

Make no mistake some here are truly talented in this regard, and try to flip people all the time. Those of a manipulative mind know what I am saying because you are super sensitive to this subject and will respond aggressively against me. But Lord forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They are literal victims of who they are.

 

[psalm6819]

I had a thought that for some will drive them nuts and others become an insight into reality.

I worked with a woman who had some deep seated need issues for support and understanding. She felt her husband did not understand. I knew them both quite well. It was obvious if they both expressed their needs all that would result was disappointment and rejection, which would compound the hurt.

Now in the same situation but with the Lords love working in both peoples lives, the showing of need can be met both by the Lord and by the other party expressing the love that is overflowing from their hearts out of the overflow of the relationship each has with God. Now much of the advances in understanding of what works in counselling situations and what does not is empowering to the gospel and the truth it brings. It shows the sermon on the mount works and super analysis does not.
Doing good things out of an appreciating heart is good for the soul, and rather than running away from the growing understanding of what we are and how we work, we should be embracing it and seeing Gods glory being declared.

A simple example of this is anxiousness, and facing emotion. A christian woman was driven nuts by anxious thoughts, which she resisted which made it worse into panic attacks and relationship breakdown. What worked was beginning to accept being anxious was natural, ok, just a feeling but was not a problem, and meant she should just be careful. She taught herself techniques to deal with stress, visualisation of safety, care, protection, and she could start living normally.

She had tried everything else, from demons, claiming victory in Christ, psychiatric drugs, ECT, counselling, but the approaching her emotions and changing her behaviour worked. For some here this is just too worldly, rather than declaring this is Gods world which he created so take possession of Gods given temple, who you are and how you work.

Funny thing, change we make to ourselves don't stick. (behavior modification is external not internal)

Only GOD can renew our minds and heal brokeness....thru His Word and the Holy Spirit

Our good intensions lead us where????? What road is paved with good intensions????

 

[coby]

My pastor of our church burnt out. I spoke to one counsellors of pastors and it seemed so many were drained out.
Simple lessons about boundaries, knowing what you can achieve and what is impossible or manipulation by another is so important. Our new pastor came and I was talking with a pessimistic friend who said, "You are optimistic now, but when you are empty then it will be different." The reality of living water flowing from the heart is missing in too many.

Part of the problem is emotions are a dirty word. Need is like a disease only the weak need. A man of God is a man of power. On cc it is no different.

I had a friend who counselled alcoholics and mentally ill people. They chewed him up, emotionally, and spat him out. He was a very loving man, but had no clue the minefield he was letting himself walk into. I know this world because I have had to survive it, but with Jesus. Grace and failure are just running away from something much worse, but equally a denial of a victory so much greater in Christ. People here have thrown such junk at me, if I had taken it to heart, it would have caused serious harm. But this is nothing compared to psychos trying to depress you into suicide. They were truly sick, but I could see the damage they could do to a vulnerable person.

Make no mistake some here are truly talented in this regard, and try to flip people all the time. Those of a manipulative mind know what I am saying because you are super sensitive to this subject and will respond aggressively against me. But Lord forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. They are literal victims of who they are.

I got set free from borderline. Once I screamed to my ex, just insane like a witch and he saw it: it's not her. It's a demon. My granddad had been in rosecrucianism. That was one curse of it. When I was 14 I was just insane I thought, but it was a demon. Had a lot of deliverance and inner healing. Had that book of Frank Hammond: pigs in the parlor. He described it like 2 demonic personalities and the real person trapped in between.
Without all the help and deliverance and getting to know who you are in Christ it would have been impossible to get out of it.
My ex got a dream from God that He changed his heart and all those people came and got healed. Lol I said: oh I said that when I was in the mental hospital! The revival will start there! God uses the foolish ones LOL.

 

[coby]

If anyone bothers you PeterJens just threaten them that I will come hahahahahahaha.
Just kidding. I recently got tested, had to from my boss. I'm officially normal now.

 

[PeterJens]

Funny thing, change we make to ourselves don't stick. (behavior modification is external not internal)
Only GOD can renew our minds and heal brokeness....thru His Word and the Holy Spirit
Our good intensions lead us where????? What road is paved with good intensions????

You talk from someone who has not actually experienced what I am talking about. What you are saying is I am not talking about His Word or His Holy Spirit. You sound like an unbeliever saying Jesus did not rise from the dead, His people have no authority or understanding, it is just words not power. You have believed the world and your experience of the world, where nothing seems to change. I have walked in this change for over 40 years, and it has not stopped.

Is Jesus the fulfillment of life, or just christians? Are His truths eternal that sin destroys everyone, unbelievers, believers.

In Jesus we see the world for what it is and where the Kingdom is here on earth. You are so wrapped up in religion you want it rubber stamped "the word" "the Holy Spirit" before you understand Jesus is talking about love we all experience, hurt we all have, pain and joy we all feel. It is just dead in unbelievers, a cynical joke where death laughs in their faces.

But in Christ everything is moving toward the eternal Kingdom and the return of the King. The only way the enemy can win is to turn good evil and evil good.

I spoke to some christians I knew years go, and they still believe all companies are evil, dominated by satan, and the world invades everything like a disease. But the Kingdom has overcome this world, conquered its strongholds and found them empty, without substance. So which Kingdom are you in, a defeated one, or one who has conquered the world of sin and death.

 

[psalm6819]

You talk from someone who has not actually experienced what I am talking about. What you are saying is I am not talking about His Word or His Holy Spirit. You sound like an unbeliever saying Jesus did not rise from the dead, His people have no authority or understanding, it is just words not power. You have believed the world and your experience of the world, where nothing seems to change. I have walked in this change for over 40 years, and it has not stopped.

Is Jesus the fulfillment of life, or just christians? Are His truths eternal that sin destroys everyone, unbelievers, believers.

In Jesus we see the world for what it is and where the Kingdom is here on earth. You are so wrapped up in religion you want it rubber stamped "the word" "the Holy Spirit" before you understand Jesus is talking about love we all experience, hurt we all have, pain and joy we all feel. It is just dead in unbelievers, a cynical joke where death laughs in their faces.

But in Christ everything is moving toward the eternal Kingdom and the return of the King. The only way the enemy can win is to turn good evil and evil good.

I spoke to some christians I knew years go, and they still believe all companies are evil, dominated by satan, and the world invades everything like a disease. But the Kingdom has overcome this world, conquered its strongholds and found them empty, without substance. So which Kingdom are you in, a defeated one, or one who has conquered the world of sin and death.

Wrong, you related a story of someone with extreme anxiety and depression. Benn there, done that after a couple years of non working medicine I went to the Great Physician. Unbeleivers do not seek and accept the healing aspect of Jesus redemptive sacrifice for us.

And newsflash, ever here of entropy? So yes, the world changes but not for the better.

My hopes are not tied to this world but knowing that Jesus overcomes all and the gates of hell will not prevail against me, that's why I don't have to medicate myself anymore. Peace, sound mind......from trust in Him , not me trying to change myself.

 

[PeterJens]

I got set free from borderline. Once I screamed to my ex, just insane like a witch and he saw it: it's not her. It's a demon. My granddad had been in rosecrucianism. That was one curse of it. When I was 14 I was just insane I thought, but it was a demon. Had a lot of deliverance and inner healing. Had that book of Frank Hammond: pigs in the parlor. He described it like 2 demonic personalities and the real person trapped in between.
Without all the help and deliverance and getting to know who you are in Christ it would have been impossible to get out of it.
My ex got a dream from God that He changed his heart and all those people came and got healed. Lol I said: oh I said that when I was in the mental hospital! The revival will start there! God uses the foolish ones LOL.

Coby - what you are describing is outside my experience. What I have experienced is being weak, poor and blind, but now I see, and have wisdom and things coming out that I have never seen before. We only see the beginning, it is so much vaster than we can imagine. Look at the universe, that is the breadth of His thoughts, and that is just what we can see.

The wonderful things is the Lord uses all we give to Him, because He is the potter, He knows, it is all one massive song of praise and design and glory. We were looking at the woman who washed Jesus's feet with her tears and dried it with her hair. That one act has been told for over 2,000 years about if you forgiven much you give much. One act, what an impact.

 

[PeterJens]

Wrong, you related a story of someone with extreme anxiety and depression. Benn there, done that after a couple years of non working medicine I went to the Great Physician. Unbeleivers do not seek and accept the healing aspect of Jesus redemptive sacrifice for us.

"Wrong" - Sounds like you found healing. Amen. Sounds like you are not into reaping what you sow, taking captive every thought for Christ, just zap it. What I am pointing out is obedience is about healing within and not just legalism or rules.

You are following the defeat group, I am just saying that is not Jesus's way, and you have just emphasised that with healing of your situation. So Jesus does overcome, so why not choose to walk in it?

 

[coby]

I had a thought that for some will drive them nuts and others become an insight into reality.

I worked with a woman who had some deep seated need issues for support and understanding. She felt her husband did not understand. I knew them both quite well. It was obvious if they both expressed their needs all that would result was disappointment and rejection, which would compound the hurt.

Now in the same situation but with the Lords love working in both peoples lives, the showing of need can be met both by the Lord and by the other party expressing the love that is overflowing from their hearts out of the overflow of the relationship each has with God. Now much of the advances in understanding of what works in counselling situations and what does not is empowering to the gospel and the truth it brings. It shows the sermon on the mount works and super analysis does not.
Doing good things out of an appreciating heart is good for the soul, and rather than running away from the growing understanding of what we are and how we work, we should be embracing it and seeing Gods glory being declared.

A simple example of this is anxiousness, and facing emotion. A christian woman was driven nuts by anxious thoughts, which she resisted which made it worse into panic attacks and relationship breakdown. What worked was beginning to accept being anxious was natural, ok, just a feeling but was not a problem, and meant she should just be careful. She taught herself techniques to deal with stress, visualisation of safety, care, protection, and she could start living normally.

She had tried everything else, from demons, claiming victory in Christ, psychiatric drugs, ECT, counselling, but the approaching her emotions and changing her behaviour worked. For some here this is just too worldly, rather than declaring this is Gods world which he created so take possession of Gods given temple, who you are and how you work.

Not everything from the world is wrong. It's not a sin to use your brain. I was healed from RSI in my shoulder but it kept coming back, prayer, pain gone, work, pain, prayer, pain gone. Then I went to a fysiotherapist who said: You lift your shoulder up all the time so your muscle hurts. Got a tablet and a pen instead of a mouse and it was over.
I got mad a lot with the kids. Got help to raise them. No wonder you get mad if they walk all over you. That's not a case of demons but just setting boundaries.
Lol once had a small kid 3 years old in church who kept crying. I didn't have kids then. I prayed the Lord for inner healing of the kid, I kid you not. Hahahahaha the mom came and the problem was solved. She missed her mom.

 

[roaringkitten]

You can't go wrong if you are trusting in the blood of Jesus. You were made nigh by the blood(Eph 2:13), the blood isn't just any blood, but precious and eternal(1 Pet 1:19, Rev 19:13), our sins were washed in the blood(Rev 1:5), obtained eternal redemption by blood(Heb 9:12), we have boldness to enter in the holiest by the blood(Heb 10:19). Our faith is in the blood(Rom 3:25). How can people say that the blood of Christ isn't enough for eternal salvation?

No Chrstian has an excuse to keep sinning, for the chastisement of God comes for those disobedient sons(Heb 12:7-9). We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day to give an account of our lives whether the things done in the body are good or bad(2 Cor 5:10).

To those who keep claiming we grace believers are saying a Christian can live however we want have been shown they are liars. Rom 5:14-21, 6:1-2 explains what grace means for us. I ask this question:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:6

 

[PeterJens]

No Chrstian has an excuse to keep sinning, for the chastisement of God comes for those disobedient sons(Heb 12:7-9). We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day to give an account of our lives whether the things done in the body are good or bad(2 Cor 5:10).

I here the sentiment, but are you saying you can walk in righteousness. Many have stated this is impossible.
The confess they sin constantly. They say there standard is perfection, and then talk about failures in thought, word and deed.

Now this testimony does not speak to me about people taking sin seriously or understanding ups and downs of emotional life and the start of sinful behaviour.

What I have also read is not people are saying you teach licentiousness, but rather people from these churches are happy to stay in sin and see no problem with their behaviour. The problem is to not teach on righteousness and sin gives the impression to many it does not matter. Now this is not slander or a lie, but fact.

I have been accused of being a hypocrite loading people with burdens they cannot carry to say righteousness matters.
So it is hard to then be told I am lying about not taking righteousness seriously. It is so unclear I can be called a hypocrite on both sides of the argument, which unfortunately is just saying the position between believers is unclear.

 

[coby]

You can't go wrong if you are trusting in the blood of Jesus. You were made nigh by the blood(Eph 2:13), the blood isn't just any blood, but precious and eternal(1 Pet 1:19, Rev 19:13), our sins were washed in the blood(Rev 1:5), obtained eternal redemption by blood(Heb 9:12), we have boldness to enter in the holiest by the blood(Heb 10:19). Our faith is in the blood(Rom 3:25). How can people say that the blood of Christ isn't enough for eternal salvation?

No Chrstian has an excuse to keep sinning, for the chastisement of God comes for those disobedient sons(Heb 12:7-9). We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ one day to give an account of our lives whether the things done in the body are good or bad(2 Cor 5:10).

To those who keep claiming we grace believers are saying a Christian can live however we want have been shown they are liars. Rom 5:14-21, 6:1-2 explains what grace means for us. I ask this question:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:6

I don't say the grace believers here say they can live however they want, I'm also a grace believer. Had no choice, was too bad to do good works myself lol, but some teachers literally say it that what Paul warns for doesn't matter for salvation, which is dangerous. Not for the sincere person who wants to live holy, but for the ones who hear this and don't have any fear of the Lord and those also do exist. Not here of course, not accusing anyone, although I must admit when I believed it partially it made me quite lazy and like: oh that's not such a big deal.


Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:*25*and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26*“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:*27*and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 

[roaringkitten]

I here the sentiment, but are you saying you can walk in righteousness. Many have stated this is impossible.
The confess they sin constantly. They say there standard is perfection, and then talk about failures in thought, word and deed.

Now this testimony does not speak to me about people taking sin seriously or understanding ups and downs of emotional life and the start of sinful behaviour.

What I have also read is not people are saying you teach licentiousness, but rather people from these churches are happy to stay in sin and see no problem with their behaviour. The problem is to not teach on righteousness and sin gives the impression to many it does not matter. Now this is not slander or a lie, but fact.

I have been accused of being a hypocrite loading people with burdens they cannot carry to say righteousness matters.
So it is hard to then be told I am lying about not taking righteousness seriously. It is so unclear I can be called a hypocrite on both sides of the argument, which unfortunately is just saying the position between believers is unclear.

We walk in the righteousness of Christ(as He has clothed us with this-Isa 61:10, it is our standing before God), but sadly Christians can do a bad job being a light of His Righteousness to the world!

There are certain users here who say we teach a license for sin. Yes, there are churches who neglect to preach against sin and disciple new converts. A newborn believer(1 Pet 2:2) needs the milk of the Word to grow in faith, and just like a physical newborn baby, if the parents dont teach them and chastise them for doing wrong, they live however they want!(our Heavenly Father chastises His children!)Disobedient children dont cease being the children of their parents, their standing is still as sons, but the fellowship can be hurt. We are commanded as Christians to not just accept the fact we live in the Spirit(we have the Spirit within us as believers), but we should walk IN the Spirit(Gal 5:25). Our fellowship with God can suffer(as we can grieve the Holy Ghost), but our standing is still as sons, albeit disobedient sons!