Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

[Gideon300]

Absence of evidence for something is not proof that it is not true, especially when theyre is also no evidence for the opposite claim being true. And there is also no biblical basis - where “biblical" means the Greek, Hebrew and Chaldee manuscripts that still survive - for the theory of everlasting torment.

It’s troubling that so many professing to be beneficiaries of God’s mercy through Jesus Christ are so keen to believe others will be cut off forever from that same gracious mercy we are enjoying.

I'm not at all keen. I wish there was another way. Feel free to explain to me how someone can recover from the second death. Tell me why God would accept the dead into His home. Would you?

If everyone is saved eventually, then there is no incentive to be saved now. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. People mock and reject the gospel even when God has given everything necessary for them to believe. That's their choice and they will live with the consequences.

 

[Gideon300]

most people don't take these scripture warning's seriously!

works cancel works!

good works cancel evil works

works of the flesh cancel the works of the spirit, and the works of the spirit cancel or crush the works of the flesh!

we must do works, either the good works of the spirit in righteousness empowered by grace or we will fulfill the works of the flesh!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

more?

we still have a fallen human nature and are oriented towards sin, but
God provides a remedy for sin in this life, suffering!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life...

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

With faith, hope, & charity and all the virtues, prayer, fasting, alms etc.

in all things abiding in Christ
(Jn 15:1-6) endure unto the end!
(mt 10:22 rev 2:10)

thks

Cool. You will be judged exactly as you are judging. Good luck with that.

 

[faithhopecharity101]

Cool. You will be judged exactly as you are judging. Good luck with that.

who or how am I judging?

we are judged according to our works!

rom 2:6-10

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 ;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

thks

 

[faithhopecharity101]

Why are you so obsessed with sin? Do you imagine that all who are born again are desperately trying to justify a sinful lifestyle? Do you see yourself as some kind of doom angel who has to warn every believer that they are one sin away from hell? I've learned a few things in my 75 years. One of them is that people talk about what is in their hearts. You are obsessed with sin. What does that say about you?

rev 2:13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments ; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

thks

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm not at all keen. I wish there was another way. Feel free to explain to me how someone can recover from the second death. Tell me why God would accept the dead into His home. Would you?

If everyone is saved eventually, then there is no incentive to be saved now. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. People mock and reject the gospel even when God has given everything necessary for them to believe. That's their choice and they will live with the consequences.

I have not said that anyone can recover from the second death. Nor that everyone is saved eventually. I have simply said that the Bible in the original languages does not mention everlasting torment. I am saying that we should not assume things the Bible does not say and then teach them as facts, as if God did say them.

There is some time between the return of Jesus and the second death - at least 999 years. So, claims about someone’s destiny being set from the time of their physical death seem presumptuous to me.

 

[PaulThomson]

do you also believe soul sleep?

mk 9:43-48

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

thks

The garbage was thrown into Gehenna where the worms continued to eat the organic matter and the fire kept burning. That does not mean that object thrown into Gehenna continued to exist and burn forever. Nor does it mean that something thrown into Gehenna cannot ever be removed from the fire.

I don’t see how those verses prove that those thrown into the fire continue to exist in the fire forever.

 

[Genez]

I have not said that anyone can recover from the second death. Nor that everyone is saved eventually. I have simply said that the Bible in the original languages does not mention everlasting torment. I am saying that we should not assume things the Bible does not say and then teach them as facts, as if God did say them.

There is some time between the return of Jesus and the second death - at least 999 years. So, claims about someone’s destiny being set from the time of their physical death seem presumptuous to me.

Thank you for your esoteric theory.

No wonder some many are misunderstanding you here.
For, you have your own understanding of things that you keep assuming as self evident.

It is getting to the point....

 

[Gideon300]

who or how am I judging?

we are judged according to our works!

rom 2:6-10

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 ;But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

thks

You are clueless as to what it means to be saved. All mankind is judged firstly on their relationship to Christ. If you are born again, you are already in heaven. The judgement of a believer's works is for rewards, not for punishment. Some will have next to nothing, others will be placed highly in God's kingdom.

Unbelievers are judged as sinners. There are "good" sinners and some who are utterly wicked. Sinners remain separated from God for eternity. There is a place called the "outer darkness" where there is tremendous distress. That is reserved for the most wicked.

 

[Gideon300]

The garbage was thrown into Gehenna where the worms continued to eat the organic matter and the fire kept burning. That does not mean that object thrown into Gehenna continued to exist and burn forever. Nor does it mean that something thrown into Gehenna cannot ever be removed from the fire.

I don’t see how those verses prove that those thrown into the fire continue to exist in the fire forever.

It's a lot safer for the lost to be told that they are headed for destruction than to give them assurance that everything will work out for them in the end. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. It's hard enough to convince people that they need to repent as it is.

Eternal separation from God can be explained from God's word. It's not dishonest to say that people must repent in order to be saved. If God is going to save everyone anyway, there is no point in preaching the gospel.

 

[Genez]

The judgement of a believer's works is for rewards, not for punishment. Some will have next to nothing, others will be placed highly in God's kingdom.

With that thought in mind...
Verified right here: 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

​

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames.​

That means?
Once saved always saved.

But!

We can lose out on receiving from God everlasting rewards that are to be determined by
the testing of the quality of each believer's works. Works that will be either destroyed,
or unharmed by God's Testing by fire.

Salvation itself can not be lost.

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames.​

​

God is not petty.
He is fair and just.

 

[PaulThomson]

Thank you for your esoteric theory.

No wonder some many are misunderstanding you here.
For, you have your own understanding of things that you keep assuming as self evident.

It is getting to the point....

I’m giving biblical evidence for my suggestions on how to read the scriptures for what they actually say, rather than interpreting them dogmatically according to what we may have been taught by professed “experts”. Greek and Hebrew words have semantic ranges, and it is not wise to apply an extreme semantic value to a word just because the traditions we have walked in so far have applied those extreme semantic values. An aeon/age is a period of time that had no known and defined limit when it began. The industrial age, the bronze age, the iron age, the digital age, etc. It is possible that an aeon could have an unknown end, because there is never going to be an end, but that would be a very unusual sense of aiOn and aiOnios in scripture. I am simply pointing out the flaws in arguments that adamantly assume meanings of words that are not necessitated by the wording of their context.

 

[Kroogz]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Yes and Yes.....Seems to me most believers want to live in limbo and insecurity.

The question does not need answered. Believe His word or not.


IMPERISHABLE seed.

Eternal life.

Never perish.

NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ. .........Not even the loss/forfeit/walk away/jump away crowd.

 

[Kroogz]

The judgement of a believer's works is for rewards, not for punishment.

Religion will hate this very TRUE statement.

Grace and mercy......If we do not focus on these attributes of God.........We are screwed.

 

[PaulThomson]

IMPERISHABLE seed.

They have found seed in the Egptian pyramids that still germinates today. One might call those seeds imperishable. But the plants that come from those seeds can still get diseased and die.

God’s word is always alive and active. But that does not mean we should assume that the person who hears His word and receives it cannot perish. Some imperishable seed fell on the path, some on stony ground, some among thorns and thistles, and some in good soil. Were none of the plants that came from those imperishable seeds able to perish?

 

[PaulThomson]

It's a lot safer for the lost to be told that they are headed for destruction than to give them assurance that everything will work out for them in the end. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. It's hard enough to convince people that they need to repent as it is.

Eternal separation from God can be explained from God's word. It's not dishonest to say that people must repent in order to be saved. If God is going to save everyone anyway, there is no point in preaching the gospel.

I am not for either position. One will be estranged from God as long as one rejects His rule in one's life.

If someone won’t come to the God during this life, despite the blessings promised to those who do, and despite the way to reconciliation being so simple, such a person would be a fool to presume they will easily be able immediately to take those same simple steps after death.

 

[GWH]

Is saving faith instantaneous and permanent?

 

[PaulThomson]

Is saving faith instantaneous and permanent?

Yes, and potentially.

 

[Gideon300]

Religion will hate this very TRUE statement.

Grace and mercy......If we do not focus on these attributes of God.........We are screwed.

 

[Gideon300]

There are some who cannot bear the thought that salvation does not depend on us at all. Salvation is of our God. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus. If God puts into Christ, who can take us out? For sure we can lose the benefits and even the appearance of being saved. But those who are born again cannot be unborn again. Eternal life is just that, eternal.

 

[Gideon300]

I am not for either position. One will be estranged from God as long as one rejects His rule in one's life.

If someone won’t come to the God during this life, despite the blessings promised to those who do, and despite the way to reconciliation being so simple, such a person would be a fool to presume they will easily be able immediately to take those same simple steps after death.

God has put in place everything necessary for man to realise that He exists. The gospel is preached by creation! If people reject what is before their very eyes, then reject the eyewitness testimony of the disciples recorded in then Bible, God holds them responsible. It is not that men cannot believe. It is wilful. And that results in the Great White throne judgement and the second death.

Lord Jesus died to save mankind. It's historical fact. Yet many still refuse to accept. Jesus died and rose again in public. It was common knowledge. People still did not believe. And people now still reject Christ. Everyone dies and everyone is judged, either as saint or sinner. Sinners remain dead in trespass and sin in the next life. Nowhere in God's word does it say that the dead get another chance.