Literal or Symbolic: Only 144,000 Will Go To Heaven?

VictorNoah · May 18, 2023

The interpretation of the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation is a topic of debate among biblical scholars and theologians. According to Revelation 7:4-8 and 14:1-5, the 144,000 are described as a select group of individuals who are sealed and belong to God. Some interpret this number literally, suggesting it represents a limited number of faithful humans who will go to heaven.

However, other interpretations view the 144,000 symbolically, representing a larger group that is spiritually chosen and set apart by God. These interpretations emphasize the symbolic nature of numbers in the book of Revelation and suggest that the 144,000 may represent a representation of the entirety of God's faithful people.

It's important to note that various religious denominations and individuals have different beliefs on this topic, and interpretations can vary. The understanding of the 144,000 should be approached with respect for different perspectives and a willingness to engage in thoughtful study and dialogue.

How do you interpret the significance of the 144,000: a literal count representing heaven's select few or a symbolic representation of a larger spiritually chosen group? Share your perspective and theological reasoning.

Adstar · May 18, 2023

The 144,000 is a literal number of innocent descendants of Abraham that will be preserved through the end times tribulation... They are a distinct group of people fulfilling a certain purpose of God... The doctrine that the 144,000 are the only ones granted eternal life with God is a FALSE Doctrine...

In the same chapter in the Book of Revelation it talks of a multitude of people so great that no man can count of diverse people from different nations and tongues.. Please read::

(Revelation 7:9-10) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Later in the same Chapter an Angel asked John who where these people dressed in white robes.. The Angels answered the question for John::

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So clearly the Book of Revelation is revealing another group pf people a multitude too vast to number of people from different nations who are wearing white robes.. Robes that have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb and we know that Lamb of God is The LORD Jesus Christ...

So the doctrine that only 144,000 are going to have eternity with Jesus is utter trash.. All one has to do is read the entire chapter to know that the 144,000 is only talking of a very small group of people compared the the Vast multitude of saved Peoples of the World...

iamsoandso · May 18, 2023

Adstar said:

The 144,000 is a literal number of innocent descendants of Abraham that will be preserved through the end times tribulation... They are a distinct group of people fulfilling a certain purpose of God... The doctrine that the 144,000 are the only ones granted eternal life with God is a FALSE Doctrine...

In the same chapter in the Book of Revelation it talks of a multitude of people so great that no man can count of diverse people from different nations and tongues.. Please read::

(Revelation 7:9-10) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Later in the same Chapter an Angel asked John who where these people dressed in white robes.. The Angels answered the question for John::

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So clearly the Book of Revelation is revealing another group pf people a multitude too vast to number of people from different nations who are wearing white robes.. Robes that have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb and we know that Lamb of God is The LORD Jesus Christ...

So the doctrine that only 144,000 are going to have eternity with Jesus is utter trash.. All one has to do is read the entire chapter to know that the 144,000 is only talking of a very small group of people compared the the Vast multitude of saved Peoples of the World...

lol, I read the OP title and thought "wow read the rest of the chapter..."

GRACE_ambassador · May 18, 2023

VictorNoah said:

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II). ← why The Bible Disagrees with:

Confused scholars and theologians...

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings

Omegatime · May 18, 2023

This is a well known teaching of the Jehovah Witness'es They are IMO exactly who the bible describes, Jews from the various tribes for their work in the Tribulation and most likely persecuted. Matthew 24:9-14

heartwashed · May 18, 2023

Literal...12,000 from every tribe of the Jewish people (except Dan), full-blooded.

Omegatime · May 18, 2023

From the tribe of Dan shall come the antichrist and why tribe of Dan is missing.

Gen 49:
16 Dan shall judge his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.

Nehemiah6 · May 18, 2023

VictorNoah said:

Why? The account of the 144,000 is very clear and plain. There are 12,000 Hebrew men from each of the twelve tribes of Israel listed. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000. But they are not exclusively the ones in Heaven.

Nehemiah6 · May 18, 2023

Omegatime said:

While that is true for Revelation 7, the tribe of Dan in included in Ezekiel 48:1.2. Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

So apparently Dan is not totally excluded from the land of greater Israel.

PennEd · May 18, 2023

DControversial, who started the "Not by Works" thread yrs ago, believed these are the children that were slain by Herod, when he was looking to kill baby Jesus.

I thought it was interesting. He had his reasons for believing that. Not sure I'm onboard with it though.

Snacker · May 18, 2023

PennEd said:

144,000 boys two years of age and under? It seems if it were close to that many children having been killed by Herod, the number would have been included in Scripture.

Omegatime · May 18, 2023

Bethlehem was a small village in the days of Jesus and really still small compared to todays growth. In 1600 the ottoman's had a census of 1400 and even today no more than 30,000 total. So that is just not possible that 144000 babies were killed there. The number would had to be less than 50 most likely

PennEd · May 18, 2023

Snacker said:

Yeah. Unfortunately I don’t remember all his reasons.

But a cursory dive does say that the Coptics say 144,000.

I believe he also tied it into their virginity.

Interesting, but certainly not conclusive.

The Greek liturgy asserts 14,000 Holy Innocents, while an early Syrian list of saints asserts 64,000. Coptic sources assert 144,000 and that it took place on 29 December.

Blade · May 18, 2023

What are the 144k out there doing? Kind of pointless to be preaching the gospel if they alone would be saved

So what else is going on at that time? Is there not an angel doing something also "Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to preach to the inhabitants of the earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people; "

God has not changed.. we have.. He is out there doing what He said.. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it

Magenta · May 18, 2023

PennEd said:

dcontroversal said:

Aaron56 · May 18, 2023

The 144,000 doesn't refer to Jews or to the total number of believers.

Let me explain:

We have this account in chapter 5, John sees a scroll sealed with 7 seals. He hears an angel ask "Who is worthy to loose its seals?"

It is revealed to John that no one, in heaven or on earth, was able to open the scroll or to even look at it.

And this is recorded:

"So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”"

So an elder says, "Hey John, pump the breaks on those tears. Behold (another word for look) the Lion of the tribe of Judah... has prevailed to open the scroll.

So the elder says "Look, the Lion of Judah!"

Now, when we hear someone say "Look, a lion!" what do we expect to see? We expect to see a lion.

So John turns his head to look and this is recorded:

"And I (this is John) looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain..."

So John hears "Look, a lion!" but then turns and sees "a lamb as though it had been slain": two totally different things yet they represent one thing: the person of Christ Jesus. (There's a whole sermon in there but we'll leave it at that.)

So let's look at the reference to the 144,000.

So, by Revelation chapter 7 it's hit the fan pretty hard... getting really bad in the earth.

In the beginning of the chapter John hears an angel proclaim this: "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Okay, so we're sealing servants. Then this is recorded:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed"

Notice John hears that 144,000 would be sealed.

So, when he turns to look, he should see 144,000, right? Not if we are paying attention.

John turns and looks and this is recorded:

"After these things I looked, and behold ("Behold!" it's the same language used in chapter 4), a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”"

So John hears "144,000"
but John looks and beholds "a great multitude which no one could number".

These represent the same thing, but what is heard about them and what is seen about them is different.

Without getting into sermon, here is the understanding of the 144,000: this is a complete company of 12x12x10,000 (wherein 10,000 represent the largest number at that time and 12 represents government and order). This represents the fullness of the saints on the earth who come in, a complete work.

What about the names of the tribes?

They represent facets of The Lamb of God. Notice that Judah, not the firstborn Reuben, is listed first. This is a clue that this is something other than simply a lineage.

That's all for now. There is a sermon is each name and why the name of the tribe appears where it does in sequence. Grab a concordance and look up their meanings. It's a good place to begin understanding what the record is showing.

Webers.Home · May 18, 2023

.
So-called Replacement Theology is just another name for identity theft. Take
for example the Watchtower Society's interpretation of Rev 7:1-8 wherein is
listed a specific number of Hebrews taken from every tribe of the sons of
Israel.

The Society claims that those aren't biological sons of Israel; but rather
"spiritual" sons-- referring of course to the Society's elite cadre of 144,000
Witnesses who have supposedly undergone the anointing per 1John 2:26-27.

The Society's claim is premised upon its observation that there never was a
tribe of Joseph; when in reality Joseph is listed as both a son and a tribe
(Gen 49:2-28 and Ezek 48:31-34). So that portion of the Society's reasoning
is clearly a false premise.

The Society's claim is also premised upon its observation that Ephraim and
Dan are missing from the list of tribes. However, what the Society's
theologians have somehow overlooked in the Old Testament is that
it doesn't matter whose names are chosen to represent the twelve tribes of
Israel just so long as there are twelve names. Are there twelve in Rev 7:4
8? Yes. Well then that's good enough. I realize that makes no sense but then
the Lord's apostles were still referred to as "the twelve" even with Judas out
of the picture. So that premise in the Society's reasoning is spurious too.

The Society's claim is also premised upon its reasoning that Levi isn't a valid
tribe based upon the fact that the Levites are exempt from warfare.
However, Levi is clearly listed as both a son and a tribe (Gen 49:2-28 plus
Ezek 48:31-34) which is a good many years after Num 1:1-54. So that
premise is bogus too.

The Watchtower Society not wanting the 144,000 to be biological Hebrews is
one thing; but I would just like to know from whence Charles T. Russell's
and Joseph F. Rutherford's followers got the idea that their people constitute
the 144,000. That's a pretty serious claim. How do they validate it? I don't
know; but I can just about guarantee that their explanation is an outlandish
stretch of the imagination consisting of humanistic reasoning, rationalizing,
spiritualizing, clever sophistry, and semantic double-speak.

NOTE: According to Rev 14:1-4, the 144,000 are supposed to all be males,
and none have ever slept with a woman. That, if true, would of course
disqualify married JWs and all the females among them too.
_

PennEd · May 18, 2023

Good find. Here’s a good chunk of his reasonings:

dcontroversal
Nov 16, 2018
#1
Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

Nehemiah6 · May 19, 2023

PennEd said:

Where did you come up with this strange notion of "faultless boys"? This is almost as bad as the JWs spin on this group. THERE IS NOT EVEN A HINT THAT THESE MEN ARE "BOYS". Indeed they are taken out from "among men" (Rev 14:4): These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Another common fallacy is that these men are "evangelists". There is not even a hint about them doing any evangelism. If anything they are outstanding singers, probably similar to the singers who used to be in the temple at Jerusalem.

Something else that gets missed is that the are actually raptured to Heaven. At the beginning we see them on earth: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Then suddenly we see them in Heaven ("redeemed from the earth") before the throne of God: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

PennEd · May 19, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Where did you come up with this strange notion of "faultless boys"? This is almost as bad as the JWs spin on this group. THERE IS NOT EVEN A HINT THAT THESE MEN ARE "BOYS". Indeed they are taken out from "among men" (Rev 14:4): These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Another common fallacy is that these men are "evangelists". There is not even a hint about them doing any evangelism. If anything they are outstanding singers, probably similar to the singers who used to be in the temple at Jerusalem.

Something else that gets missed is that the are actually raptured to Heaven. At the beginning we see them on earth: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Then suddenly we see them in Heaven ("redeemed from the earth") before the throne of God: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

If you followed the thread, or even just read the post you grabbed from me, you would have seen that this wasn't from me.

It was an idea posited by a former member. He makes some interesting points, but as I've said, I'm not sure I buy his overall thesis.

Literal or Symbolic: Only 144,000 Will Go To Heaven?

New member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member