You may be right that he is in error, but be careful not to write someone off as beyond redemption. God saved far worse than any of us. Present the Scriptures, warn him if necessary, and leave the results to God. Be at peace my friend.
looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?
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It is impossible for anyone else to waste your time. You make your own decisions regarding how you spend it. You need to take accountability for your own choices.
Refusing to comply with YOUR UNDERSTANDING does not mean he refuses to obey Christ. It is you who is appearing ignorant in this matter.
You have venerated it and made it your god. You are in the way of Cain and making your own worship and expect God to honor it.
You are worshipping the creature/creation rather than the creator. Creature/creation is the Greek word: ktisis which can and does mean ordiance or instutution
I warned yesterday how the exiled started all this and you are of them a Judaizer. It started with Nehemiah adding to the law and making new commandments.
Nehemiah 10:32 "Also we made ordinances for us,...." Ordinances or commandments (mitsvah: Commandment).
Adding to the same as them.
Nehemiah 13:18-22
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
19And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.
20So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice.
21Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath.
22And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
You are in the way of the Judaizers and preaching the false message of your false prophet. You really need to search out what worshipping a false god is.
Hi Omc, it is Men who called the Commandments the "Moral Law" it is is Not from scripture and I rarely use it except to clarify.
When God gave Israel the Ten Commandments, He did not treat them as a loose set of rules. He called them His covenant. The first place Scripture says so outright is Exodus 34:27-28, where Moses "wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." Moses says it most plainly in Deuteronomy 4:13: "he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." He returns to it in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, where he says the LORD "made a covenant with us in Horeb" and then recites the Decalogue (vv. 6-21). In Deuteronomy 9:9, 11 and 15 the tablets are called "the tables of the covenant," and in Deuteronomy 10:4-5 and 8 the commandments are rewritten on new tables and placed in "the ark of the covenant of the LORD." Finally, 1 Kings 8:9 and 21 (with 2 Chronicles 5:10) tell us that at the dedication of the temple the ark held nothing but the two tables of stone, "when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel." Exodus 31:18 and 32:15 add a related name for them, the "tables of testimony."
Scripture also draws a line between these tables and the rest of Moses' law. The Ten Commandments were spoken by God's own voice and written by His finger on stone (Deuteronomy 4:12-13; 5:22; Exodus 31:18), and they were kept inside the ark. Moses' book of the law was written by Moses and placed "in the side of the ark" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). Moses himself speaks of "the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments" (Deuteronomy 5:31; 6:1), and Jesus spoke of "the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith" (Matthew 23:23). So the Bible does make distinctions, but in its own words. The popular label "moral law" is a later invention of theologians, not a scriptural term, and it is wiser to argue from what the text says than from a category it never uses.
Then comes the promise of a new covenant. In Jeremiah 31:31-34, God says He will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake." The fault was in the people, not in the commandments. So the change is not that God discards His law but that He writes it somewhere new: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." The covenant also brings what Sinai did not, for all shall know the LORD, and "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Ezekiel says the same thing in other words, that God will give a new heart and put His spirit within them and "cause you to walk in my statutes" (Ezekiel 36:26-27; 11:19-20), and Jeremiah 32:40 and Isaiah 2:3 and 51:7 echo it. Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16 quote Jeremiah's promise, and Jesus Himself speaks of "the new testament in my blood" (Luke 22:20; Matthew 26:28).
What does that law contain? Jeremiah says "my law" and does not list it, so the answer has to be assembled from the rest of Scripture, and that is exactly where Jesus speaks. He said He came "not to destroy, but to fulfil," and that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law (Matthew 5:17-19). He deepened the commandments rather than dropping them, taking murder back to anger and adultery to the lustful look (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28). He told a man that to enter into life he must keep the commandments, and named several of them (Matthew 19:17-19). He gave the two great commandments, to love God and to love thy neighbour, on which "hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). He gave a new commandment, "That ye love one another; as I have loved you" (John 13:34), and said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15; see also 14:21 and 15:10, 12). He added baptism and the remembrance of His body and blood (Matthew 28:19; Luke 22:19), and charged His disciples to teach all nations "to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20). The other apostles carry the same thread. John ties keeping the commandments to loving God (1 John 2:3-4; 5:2-3), James calls it "the perfect law of liberty" and "the royal law" and cites the commandments against adultery and murder (James 1:25; 2:8-12), Revelation speaks of those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus" (12:17; 14:12), and the Jerusalem council laid on Gentile believers a short list of requirements (Acts 15:19-20, 28-29).
Some things did change, and the Bible says so itself. Hebrews 7:12 says that "the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law," and Hebrews 8:13, 9:9-10 and 10:1 describe the sacrifices and carnal ordinances as shadows, fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ. Jesus said, "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" (Matthew 9:13, quoting Hosea 6:6). And because Scripture presents the Son as one with God (John 1:1-3; 10:30; Hebrews 1:1-2), it is no surprise that He speaks the commandments again with His Father's authority and adds to them.
Put together, the scriptural position can be stated like this: the new covenant is God's covenant of forgiveness and a changed heart, in which His law, the commandments spoken at Sinai as taught and fulfilled by Christ, who is one with God, is written by God in the hearts of those who receive it and continue in it. That last part matters, because the promise is that God does the writing and the enabling, while the believer must remain in faith and obedience (Hebrews 3:12; John 15:4-10).
As for the fourth commandment;
Jesus explained how to keep it. In Mark 2:27-28 He says, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Made "for man" points back to creation (Genesis 2:2-3), before there was any Jew or Gentile, so it is a gift to mankind and not a burden. In Matthew 12:1-8 He defends His disciples by citing David, the priests who work in the temple on the sabbath and are blameless, and Hosea 6:6, "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice." In Matthew 12:12 He concludes, "Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days," and in Luke 6:9 He asks, "Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?" He heals on the sabbath (Luke 13:10-17; 14:1-6; John 5:1-18; 9:1-16) and argues in John 7:23 that making a man whole on the sabbath is no breach of the law. In each case He corrects the way the commandment was being kept, not the commandment itself. Rest, mercy, and doing good belong together.
Jesus and his disciples kept it. Luke 4:16 says "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day." It was His settled habit. In John 15:10 He says, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love," and the Pharisees, who watched Him closely for a charge, never proved a breach of the law. Then 1 John 2:6 carries it to the believer: "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Jesus expected it to continue. In Matthew 24:20, speaking of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, He says, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day." That was said about events decades after His ascension, which suggests He expected His followers still to be keeping the sabbath. Luke 23:56 adds that the women who followed Him "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" after His death.
I've rested the point mentioned here as should be, by Jesus' own words, which has all the authority in Heaven and earth.
I agree that the Ten Commandments are repeatedly called the covenant, were written by God's finger on stone, and occupy a unique place in Israel's history.
I also agree that the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 is not that God abolishes His law but that He writes it on the hearts of His people.
Where I still hesitate is in assuming that this automatically settles the Sabbath question.
The issue is not whether God writes His law on the heart, but how the New Testament itself applies the law under the new covenant.
I also agree that Jesus corrected abuses of the Sabbath rather than treating it as evil.
Mark 2:27-28, Matthew 12, and the healing accounts clearly show that Christ taught the proper use of the Sabbath, emphasizing mercy, doing good, and meeting human need.
However, those events all occurred before the cross and within the context of the old covenant order.
The question is whether the apostles present Sabbath observance after the resurrection in the same way they present commands against idolatry, adultery, theft, and murder.
Matthew 24:20 is often raised, but even there Jesus could simply be acknowledging the realities His Jewish disciples would face in Judea decades later, just as He mentions winter.
The passage does show the Sabbath still mattered in that setting, but whether it establishes a perpetual new-covenant obligation for all believers everywhere is another question.
So I think you've made a stronger case for the continued significance of the Sabbath than many Christians do.
What I am still looking for, however, is an apostolic instruction directed to the church after Christ's resurrection that explicitly treats the fourth commandment as a binding covenant obligation in the same way the apostles treat other moral commands.
Until I see that, I remain persuaded that your position is a reasonable interpretation of the biblical data, but not one that the biblical data itself compels beyond dispute.
That is why I view it as an area where sincere believers can disagree while remaining united in Christ.
If we just look at the 4th law as it is written, it is saying " don't work", "make it holy".
All agrees that good work on Saturday is fine, according to Jesus.
How to "make it holy"? A holy assembly is a must on 7th day?
Also many said it is 7th matters, one can start day 1 in any day. 1 out of 7.
So for people insist on this law, there are different views to observe it, according to understanding of scripture.
For some people do not insist on sabbath law, their action already keep the sabbath law possibly, by making it holy everyday.
I think you've touched on why this discussion has continued for centuries.
Even among those who affirm the Sabbath, there is disagreement about what obedience to the fourth commandment actually requires.
Is the emphasis on abstaining from ordinary labor?
Is it on corporate worship?
Is it on the seventh day specifically?
Is it one day in seven?
Or is it ultimately fulfilled in resting continually in Christ?
The fact that sincere Bible-believing Christians reach different conclusions even after accepting the Sabbath's ongoing significance suggests that the New Testament does not provide the same level of detailed instruction on the matter that it provides on other subjects.
That is one reason I am cautious about making any particular Sabbath interpretation a test of fellowship or orthodoxy.
If a believer sets apart the seventh day to the Lord, he should do so unto the Lord.
If another gathers on the first day in honor of Christ's resurrection, he should do so unto the Lord.
And if another emphasizes the believer's continual rest in Christ while faithfully assembling with the saints, he should do so unto the Lord.
Romans 14 seems highly relevant here, because Paul directs believers to be persuaded in their own minds regarding days while avoiding the judgment of one another.
So while I continue to wrestle with exactly how the fourth commandment applies under the New Covenant, I think your observation is fair: even among those who insist on Sabbath observance, there is significant disagreement regarding how it is to be practiced, which suggests humility is appropriate on all sides of the discussion.
ill just speak of the covenant, the ten commandments, Jesus did teach and spoke about all of them, we must not forget Jesus sent his disciples to preach ALL Jesus did and said, to all the world, that means for all who will hear it, Gentiles and Jews, it is why we do have Matthew, Luke, John and Mark, what Jesus wanted us to know is in there and it was meant certainly for ALL. As for the fourth Commandment, part of the ten, they all kept it, Paul also.......in the book of revelations it will still be observed;
Revelation 14:12
“Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”
Revelation 12:17
“And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
These verses show that in Revelation, at the end, God's people are still described as keeping God's commandments. the Sabbath part of the ten commandments was not abolished or changed.
Lets not forget this one that places the sabbath in the future also;
Isaiah 66:22–23
“For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
Cheers
You didn't read post 1213.
It highlights the points you make..
We are dead because of sin and can not keep the law.
That was the old covenant of "we will do" which was faulty.
The new covenant is about Jesus living in us and transforming us.
He will write the law in our hearts.
So a good sign that you are living in the new covenant is the sign of obedience.
To be disobedient is a sure sign that you are rejecting the Spirit.
Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us through the indwelling Spirit.
Keep walking in the ways of man and the ways of the world and you will remain the enemy of God.
To walk in the Spirit = obedience to the law.
Jas 4:3-5
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
You keep going around my question.
Jesus needed to set up the changes of the new covenant before He died. When His blood was shed the new covenant was ratified. Set. Unchanging.
Like the blood of the Ox that was used to ratified the old. Ex 24.
Heb 9:16-17
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
So if there was a change in the 10 commandments, Jesus needed to make it clear before He died.
He set up the foot washing and ordinces on Thursday night.. so they are part of the new.
He could have set the changes to sabbath observance in place easily. Just one sentance is all it would have taken. But no change is seen.
in fact Jesus promoted the sabbath law..
Refering to a future event Jesus said.
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
and luke after the death of Jesus said..
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Notice Luke did not say according the commandment that no longer is...
Agree, I am not worthy. And that is why you are so deceived. You imagine that you are worthy. I have a worthiness and righteousness that is entirely by grace, a gift of God and not according to my merit. You trumpet your own righteousness because you are obeying a set of rules. I died, and my life is hidden in Christ with God. Lord Jesus is my righteousness, my holiness, my wisdom and sanctification.
The only reason I respond to you is in order to help others who might read your nonsense and wonder if it is true. I realised a while ago that God's word is only true to you when it suits you. You ignore the passages that refute your false claims. That's your choice. You boast in your adherence to the law that no longer applies to believers. My boast is in Lord Jesus alone.
The only reason I respond to you is in order to help others who might read your nonsense and wonder if it is true. I realised a while ago that God's word is only true to you when it suits you. You ignore the passages that refute your false claims. That's your choice. You boast in your adherence to the law that no longer applies to believers. My boast is in Lord Jesus alone.
Basic knowing Jesus begotten Again the first day of week . probably Glorified the same day. I dont think Jesus Took his Heavenly seat yet tho. And I'm not sure what 40 days later was ,What Day when The High Priest did take a Seat
Past other high priests don't get to Rest on the Sabbath ! that was the flaw because of so much Uncleanliness Nation
The high priest never was able to rest or sit .
Jesus took All of Man he was and All of God He IS to the throne Seated Son of Man rest Sabbath completed. It's a whole different Creation Nation and don't forget Jesus has all the authority righteousness and judgment . If I really want to be free and know that Jesus sets you free because you're already judged righteous by him this would be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the seal and you're not going to worry about days over other days Or always think about sin and commandments all the time Jesus took all of man with him to the throne ,isn't he Glorified Son of Man Lord Almighty God? The Holy Spirit comes from the baptism in Jesus name alone do both water and fire that way there is no contradiction ,even in the Bible as People twist it up.
OK, how often do you wash the feet of the members of your church? Do you require all church members to be circumcised? Do you sacrifice oxen or lambs on the altar of your church? Which parts of the Law apply to you now? Where did Jesus specifically say that animal sacrifices are no longer necessary? Where did He say that circumcision is no longer required?
You love to quote verses out of context and ignore everything else that contradicts your false doctrine. Convert to Judaism. You'll be right at home.
Because I'm promoting obedience, does that mean I'm worshiping obedience rather then Jesus. ???
Obedience is the highest and most genuine form of worship we can offer to our Creator.
True worship is not merely an outward ceremony or the speaking of beautiful words; it is the submission of the heart and the alignment of our lives with the divine will.
I'm promoting the decalog which as God's divine will.
Notice the connection between worshiping and serving.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
"Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" 1 Samuel 15:22
"Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" Ecclesiastes 12:13.
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:13.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
The reason I'm asking people to consider the true sabbath is because Sunday is a tradition of men. Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
So your worship isn't in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Sanctified.... = qâdash
Definition:
to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate
(Qal)
to be set apart, be consecrated
to be hallowed
consecrated, tabooed
(Niphal)
to show oneself sacred or majestic
to be honoured, be treated as sacred
to be holy
(Piel)
to set apart as sacred, consecrate, dedicate
to observe as holy, keep sacred
to honour as sacred, hallow
to consecrate
(Pual)
to be consecrated
consecrated, dedicated
(Hiphil)
to set apart, devote, consecrate
to regard or treat as sacred or hallow
to consecrate
(Hithpael)
to keep oneself apart or separate
to cause Himself to be hallowed (of God)
to be observed as holy
to consecrate oneself
Sanctified = to set aside as Holy
And God commanded Israel to remember this holy day.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
AS GOD DID FROM HIS...
we are told to cease from our labour as God did from His.
Keep like God did.