Midrash: The LAW - Done Away With?

[zone]

I just realized that this subject is derailing the subject of this post and for that I apologize. I will refrain from posting along this line here effective immediately.

hi GB.
actually your questions are totally relevent to the OP in a certain sense.
if we believe we can be righteous before God by "keeping the Law", we are back into slavery, and in fact, are slaves to sin again, since the Law is like a giant spotlight revealing our sinfulness in the Light God's Holiness and Righteous Character....well....any honest person knows what that really means.

Paul says those who seek to be justified by the Law HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE! Christ is of NO BENEFIT TO THEM! and yes, Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS (doesn't matter jew or gentile since there is no difference) who tried to carry the yoke of the Law! and he cursed those who brought them this teaching.

it's only in the apprehension of what Christ has done on our behalf that the chains of slavery under the Law and to sin are broken. it doesn't say and The Law shall set you free. it says The Son shall.

this is a miraculous Gift given by Him by Grace, and it is even our Faith.

Grace through Faith...and He WILL keep working all things for your good and to His Glory (uncomfortable as it is, believe me sister, i know).

love zone.

 

[Gimzani]

Early on in the thread I wanted to establish that I was NOT claiming that Law = salvation.

If that were true then we could throw out Yahoshua - (Jesus). In fact, that is the contention that Messiah had with the Pharasies - they were teaching that very thing.

Messiah cam against that teaching when He said:

John 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is [one] who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
​

I think we are facing a similar situation today in the Churches because we treat the Old Testament as "OLD" - how can we believe Yahoshua - (Jesus) - if we don't know what Moses is saying - (Torah)?

Keeping the Law will NOT get you saved. Only the faith in Yahoshua - (Jesus) - and the Lamb of God Sacrifice will do that.

But the commands of YHVH - (God) - are NOT done away with due to the fact that God is unchanging.

Why would the King of the Universe give us the Law only to take it away later. That doesn't make any sense. Israel was always expecting the savior. We read that in Job:

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
​

How did they know about Him? Moses. Torah.

The point that many of us are trying to make has nothing to do with Grace. Grace is a free gift of the Holy One and because of its "user friendly" nature, mankind has no excuse for not turning to YHVH in the end. Just believe in him - easy, right?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.
​

And AMEN to that!

But once you are saved, is that it? Can you check out? Did you win the game? NO - you are still learning. So what do you learn?

TORAH.

That is the only point that I was trying to make.

The Holy Spirit is a councellor and a teacher - what does He teach? Torah!

When you study Torah, inevitably you will come across laws that you cannot do. That's okay. If you can't do them because you're not a priest or you don't have goats or you don't live in the land or there's no temple - that's okay. But it's no reason to throw the whole thing out.

He loves each and every one of us. And I love each and every one of you. That is why I was hoping to openly discuss this.

I'll admit that there are several passeges and things that I'm going to go back and study. I thank all of you for that! We are ALL still learning.

But I do think that we have to recognize that YHVH is multi-dimensional and multi-temporal - something that is, IS - it doesn't change. To do so would cause YHVH to be a liar - (violating HIS own laws). I wouldn't want to serve a God like that!

Thankfully I don't have to.

Shalom.

 

[JaumeJ]

I love to read what is called the "Old Testament," however, it is full of writings about Jesus Christ, so what is so Old about it? As a matter of fact, the first time I read the Bible, I began with Isaiah, and every word was just as beautiful then as it is now, always new, always true. Many folks do not think on what Jesus Christ was teaching when He told the Pharisees, "If you believe Moses you would believe Me, for Moses wrote of Me." Not only Moses, but all of the prophets refer to Jesus at one time or another. Jesus literally leaps out to my heart and soul from Genesis to Malachi, and of course continues through the final amen of Revelation. I am blessed in Abraham, and this is true for all who claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savour.

 

[GloryBe]

Early on in the thread I wanted to establish that I was NOT claiming that Law = salvation.

If that were true then we could throw out Yahoshua - (Jesus). In fact, that is the contention that Messiah had with the Pharasies - they were teaching that very thing.

Messiah cam against that teaching when He said:

John 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is [one] who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
​

I think we are facing a similar situation today in the Churches because we treat the Old Testament as "OLD" - how can we believe Yahoshua - (Jesus) - if we don't know what Moses is saying - (Torah)?

Keeping the Law will NOT get you saved. Only the faith in Yahoshua - (Jesus) - and the Lamb of God Sacrifice will do that.

But the commands of YHVH - (God) - are NOT done away with due to the fact that God is unchanging.

Why would the King of the Universe give us the Law only to take it away later. That doesn't make any sense. Israel was always expecting the savior. We read that in Job:

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
​

How did they know about Him? Moses. Torah.

The point that many of us are trying to make has nothing to do with Grace. Grace is a free gift of the Holy One and because of its "user friendly" nature, mankind has no excuse for not turning to YHVH in the end. Just believe in him - easy, right?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.
​

And AMEN to that!

But once you are saved, is that it? Can you check out? Did you win the game? NO - you are still learning. So what do you learn?

TORAH.

That is the only point that I was trying to make.

The Holy Spirit is a councellor and a teacher - what does He teach? Torah!

When you study Torah, inevitably you will come across laws that you cannot do. That's okay. If you can't do them because you're not a priest or you don't have goats or you don't live in the land or there's no temple - that's okay. But it's no reason to throw the whole thing out.

He loves each and every one of us. And I love each and every one of you. That is why I was hoping to openly discuss this.

I'll admit that there are several passeges and things that I'm going to go back and study. I thank all of you for that! We are ALL still learning.

But I do think that we have to recognize that YHVH is multi-dimensional and multi-temporal - something that is, IS - it doesn't change. To do so would cause YHVH to be a liar - (violating HIS own laws). I wouldn't want to serve a God like that!

Thankfully I don't have to.

Shalom.

I don't know if I am qualified to respond to this issue, but I'm going to give it a try. First, I say yes.... do study this question very prayfully with an open mind and spirit, because which ever way you decide is truth, I know you want it to be the way that is pleasing to God.

I want to understand it better from your prospective as well. I can't help thinking there is something we (the church as a whole) are missing here on this subject when we read the scriptures. I don't believe the scriptures tell us the Law of Moses (as I know it) is still "LAW".... no. It couldn't still be "LAW...as in rules or processes we we are required to do to attempt to be righteous".. because grace replaced the law (of the letter) and to assume otherwise is to deny that grace. But...honoring the spirit of any laws which would not be an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ..(such as animal sacrifices would be..IMHO)...and if done as an act of love for your God and your Savior and not as a requirement of the law...that might be another thing altogether.
Honoring the 7 feasts might very well be an example of that. I can't see where in and of themselves they could be wrong at all...in fact they would most likely be a wonderful celebration of both Jews historical relationship with God and the life of Jesus Christ... past, present and future.

I do have some questions tho. First, how in the world would a gentile go about doing this when they have no idea where to start?..not to mention probably being the only person they know who would be in attendance at their own feast..lol! I have actually wondered about this for awhile now.

Second... what were the practises of the early church (both Jewish and Gentile believers) concerning the feasts specifically?

Concerning the OT..... I grew up in a church that considered the OT to be basically no longer relevant as did many I think. But...I have very definitely learned otherwise since then. It has opened my eyes to who God is, the beauty of His plan and how it has evolved...and just how awesome and self proving the word of God really is! No...Not OLD...but very relevant. I love the OT!

 

[Laodicea]

hi GB.
actually your questions are totally relevent to the OP in a certain sense.
if we believe we can be righteous before God by "keeping the Law", we are back into slavery, and in fact, are slaves to sin again, since the Law is like a giant spotlight revealing our sinfulness in the Light God's Holiness and Righteous Character....well....any honest person knows what that really means.

Paul says those who seek to be justified by the Law HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE! Christ is of NO BENEFIT TO THEM! and yes, Paul was speaking to CHRISTIANS (doesn't matter jew or gentile since there is no difference) who tried to carry the yoke of the Law! and he cursed those who brought them this teaching.

it's only in the apprehension of what Christ has done on our behalf that the chains of slavery under the Law and to sin are broken. it doesn't say and The Law shall set you free. it says The Son shall.

this is a miraculous Gift given by Him by Grace, and it is even our Faith.

Grace through Faith...and He WILL keep working all things for your good and to His Glory (uncomfortable as it is, believe me sister, i know).

love zone.

It is true that we cannot be justified by the law if we could we would have no need of a saviour. The purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ nothing more the law has not been done away but it cannot save us only condemn.

Galatians 3:24
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 2:16
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Luke 18:42
(42) And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

 

[Grandpa]

Early on in the thread I wanted to establish that I was NOT claiming that Law = salvation.

If that were true then we could throw out Yahoshua - (Jesus). In fact, that is the contention that Messiah had with the Pharasies - they were teaching that very thing.

Messiah cam against that teaching when He said:

John 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is [one] who accuses you--Moses, in whom you trust. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
​

I think we are facing a similar situation today in the Churches because we treat the Old Testament as "OLD" - how can we believe Yahoshua - (Jesus) - if we don't know what Moses is saying - (Torah)?

Keeping the Law will NOT get you saved. Only the faith in Yahoshua - (Jesus) - and the Lamb of God Sacrifice will do that.

But the commands of YHVH - (God) - are NOT done away with due to the fact that God is unchanging.

Why would the King of the Universe give us the Law only to take it away later. That doesn't make any sense. Israel was always expecting the savior. We read that in Job:

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
​

How did they know about Him? Moses. Torah.

The point that many of us are trying to make has nothing to do with Grace. Grace is a free gift of the Holy One and because of its "user friendly" nature, mankind has no excuse for not turning to YHVH in the end. Just believe in him - easy, right?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.
​

And AMEN to that!

But once you are saved, is that it? Can you check out? Did you win the game? NO - you are still learning. So what do you learn?

TORAH.

That is the only point that I was trying to make.

The Holy Spirit is a councellor and a teacher - what does He teach? Torah!

When you study Torah, inevitably you will come across laws that you cannot do. That's okay. If you can't do them because you're not a priest or you don't have goats or you don't live in the land or there's no temple - that's okay. But it's no reason to throw the whole thing out.

He loves each and every one of us. And I love each and every one of you. That is why I was hoping to openly discuss this.

I'll admit that there are several passeges and things that I'm going to go back and study. I thank all of you for that! We are ALL still learning.

But I do think that we have to recognize that YHVH is multi-dimensional and multi-temporal - something that is, IS - it doesn't change. To do so would cause YHVH to be a liar - (violating HIS own laws). I wouldn't want to serve a God like that!

Thankfully I don't have to.

Shalom.

Wow that was a great way to frame that statement. And in that light I agree with you. I love God's law because it is of God. It helps me to learn about Him. I can't keep it because I am weak. But I know the One who is Strong. I love the Old Testament because it speaks of my Saviour all over the place. And it speaks to me. I am just like Israel in the old testament. I fade away from God and then I repent and come back, sometimes the world entices me like it did with Israel. But God is faithful.

Shalom. God Bless You

 

[JaumeJ]

I have heard it said in many churhces - (not all) - that the Law - (Torah) - has been done away with. Many churches use Colossians 2:14 as proof of this:

Col 2:14 “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us, which were contrary to us, even he has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the tree.”
​

The Greek word used in this context for "handwriting of ordinances" is "cheirographon" which means "Debt" - but in a few Bibles it is translated as "written code, with its regulations". Most say debt or handwriting of ordinances.

Since by this context it seems that our Debt has been nailed to the cross. Messiah goes on to say:

Matt 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle hall in no wise pass from the law, till all comes to pass."
​

In light of all of this, are we not to also follow Torah and be blessed by it? (I'm not talking salvation here - but I am suggesting obedience.)

Again, my question is:

If the Law has NOT been done away with, then shouldn't we be following Torah?
​

Shalom Avinu,

Almost every day I ask myself why I do not remember the proper teachings to pass on to the brethren for mutual edification, and every time I realize, although any one of us may know lots about the Holy Scriptures, only One knows all, Yeshua. About the Law, here is just one of the many teachings from Rabboni, Jesus Christ from my morning reading. I read it, and immediately I thought of you and this discussion. I do hope all who reread this quote will meditate and pray about it. Baruch haShem....
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
I believe Jesus fulfilled all in the law of Moses and in the prophets concerning Himself, now this does not even imply that the laws are to be forgotten.

 

[needmesomejesus]

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The thing is we are not under the law, but grace. Christ calls us to a higher standard in some ways than in the old testament because of grace.
For example: Instead of eye to eye: turn the other cheek; instead of not committing adultery don't even look at a woman wrong.

 

[yaright]

I have heard it said in many churhces - (not all) - that the Law - (Torah) - has been done away with. Many churches use Colossians 2:14 as proof of this:

Col 2:14 “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us, which were contrary to us, even he has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the tree.”
​

The Greek word used in this context for "handwriting of ordinances" is "cheirographon" which means "Debt" - but in a few Bibles it is translated as "written code, with its regulations". Most say debt or handwriting of ordinances.

Since by this context it seems that our Debt has been nailed to the cross. Messiah goes on to say:

Matt 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle hall in no wise pass from the law, till all comes to pass."
​

In light of all of this, are we not to also follow Torah and be blessed by it? (I'm not talking salvation here - but I am suggesting obedience.)

Again, my question is:

If the Law has NOT been done away with, then shouldn't we be following Torah?
​

I appreciate your bringing this to the table, to consider what is given to reveal who we are and why we are that way in God's sight. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law will pass until it is fulfilled. Some speak of the law as already fulfilled; and other say it has not been fulfilled. I've been shown that as we walk with Jesus by our faith in Him, Jesus is fulfilling the law within as. When the law is given on a personal plain (which Jesus did on the path He walked to the Cross), It is no longer the law that we follow, but Christ, who knows all things.

In my witness concerning the Christian fish (in the thread Discovery), I share how the very first law is fulfilled within us, in the very beginning of our walk with Jesus. There is no longer a need for me to be a 'stranger' to God's house/ His Temple. When that law became fulfilled in me, there is no longer a need for that law, because it is hidden in my witness; Just like it was hidden in Christ's witness when He said, "Repent, pick up your cross and follow Me." AND "Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men"
Later in this understanding Jesus spoke parable language concerning a coin of two parts. This combination of three parts are the fulfillment of words of the prophets and a law which Moses commanded to be done. I am not saying the law needs to be done away with; As one generations comes and goes, another generation follows; and the law is there for them to ask, "What does this mean, and how does it affect my life?"

I appreciate beyond words that the nation of God's people kept the law through the work of traditions; Even in their culture, even in their every day life. Because it is written, and I hear witness of these things, there is One who I go to, and He teaches me these things which are hidden from the ways of the world. I can find the nature of the law in all things given in the path Jesus walked. It is like a street of gold, every step there are precious teachings that make us richer in character than anything we've ever seen before.

Everything Jesus said and did is abundantly sufficient for anyone who follows Him by a faith that supersedes the law as it is being fulfilled within that person. The law is more precious when it lives within a person than it is on paper or preached as doctrine that becomes a burden to men. Faith is far more precious than law;and Jesus gave us understanding in a choice between two things. He said, "Go see what this means, 'I prefer mercy, not sacrifice." The sacrifice of animals according to law, became the work of traditions and the doctrines of men; who would kill a lamb to redeem the foal of a donkey: And they did not know what was in their hands when they did the law. But Jesus instills within each of us, understanding that supersedes the law, because we know what is in the hands of men, to kill the Lamb of God.

 

[Laodicea]

If we do away with the law of God we do away with the love of God.

Galatians 3:24
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Luke 7:47
(47) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

 

[yaright]

If we do away with the law of God we do away with the love of God.

Galatians 3:24
(24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Luke 7:47
(47) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

What you are saying is true. What do we preach to the saved Children of God? Shall we continue with the law as if it has not successfully taught us, not successfully led us to Christ? Having received the Spirit who teaches, so that we have no need for our neighbor to teach us; who do we turn to in the Lord's prayer? Are we supposed to return to the law, forsaking what Jesus did, clearly portrayed on the Cross for all to see a greater purpose in the fulfillment of the law?

What you are saying is true.