My Second ( FINAL) Effort: Why Pentecostal Doct Speaking in Tongues is False Doctrine

[DABEARS85]

I respect your views, you clearly put a lot of time into your post.........would you consider Joel 2:28 to be regarding Pentecost? And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I personally don't care for denominations, and if they disappeared tomorrow i wouldn't shed a tear! I do however experientially know the benefits of praying in tongues, and walking in the power of the Spirit......I would say 1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 speaks of when Jesus comes, I'm sure we won't be 'complete', and in any lesser need of manifestations of the Holy Spirit pre His return.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. We need power in the days to come, and praise God, we don't have to strive in our own strength
Healings can occur anywhere, but people in foreign countries can't always rely on a good health service. So praise God healings, prophesy, edifying ourselves, and glorifying God by speaking in tongues etc, all testify to a God who does provide, and will continue to provide as times get harder, according to His riches in glory!
I only say this because i desire that everyone thirsts to walk in the power available for them now, and as a testement of Gods power He desires to pour on His people. For the sake of Christians, and lost souls who need people, now as ever with a fire to reach them with the gospel. Of course any Christian can have a burning desire to reach the lost, but there's more power available through the Holy Spirit poured out on us .
None of the above should replace a relationship with Jesus, prayer, Bible reading etc, but should give us further desire to strive in all! Also don't look to men for authority on these things, there WILL be men who abuse these gifts, as always, look to Gods word!
God Bless, Tim

This is a very good post! Perhaps, I was not completely clear on everything I've said, although I still will believe what I've interpreted through reading scripture and prayer.

I think... (and to sum it up for the rest of you who asked me to!) my main thoughts are this:

Many charismatic type churches, including pentecostal/Assembly of God, etc proclaim that "to be filled in the Spirit, you MUST speak in tongues." This is false.

Let me make a list of my points:

1. You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be filled in the Spirit. This is false doctrine. Speaking in Tongues is but one of the gifts of the Spirit, and yet, it is the LEAST of all these gifts, as Paul stated.

2. Arrogance of "some" charismatic types of being "better" and more spiritually "alive" Christians: This is false doctrine. They claim that, because they speak in tongues, they are "more" filled with the Holy Spirit, "better" Christians, "other" denominations or believers are either wrong or spiritually dead, etc. This is false.

3. Many charismatic types claim to speak in tongues, and yet they do not speak in real languages. They speak in gibberish, which is an emotional scam. In scripture, EVERYONE who spoke in tongues used REAL languages, and foreigners could understand them. In these churches full of "fake" speakers of tongues, no one understands what they are saying, and the church is NOT edified, nor are they themselves. Also, the interpretations are lies as well, leading the church and all its followers astray. The Lord warns against this very strongly, and we should all be aware of what is going on in these churches. They are not producing the fruits of the Spirit, but rather producing lies and disillusions of their own minds.

4. Some charismatic types will claim that those who do not speak in tongues are not faithful, bad Christians, living in deep sin, or something along that nature. This is false doctrine, as well as harmful to the body of Christ. As others have stated, they almost lost their faith based on these people telling them they are both not filled with the Spirit, but they are basically sinful heathens who have little faith. The problem is, most of those who speak in tongues are truly not doing it through the Spirit, and they are mere victims of emotional sensationalism which can create all kinds of disillusions, ecstatic feelings, and harmful openings in their spiritual life where evil influences can enter.

5. God does NOT use emotion for spiritually mature Christians, but rather the immature "babies" who do not have strong pillars of faith to stand on. Scripture clearly states this, and yet charismatic churches are BASED AROUND emotional feelings and insane acts that are not only lies, but harmful to their followers. Many Christians follow blindly, they are arrogant and ignorant of what scripture says, and they simply believe whatever they are told. This is wrong, against the Lord's teachings, and should not be happening. The entire idea of charismatic churches of "emotion" is false doctrine, since it is not scriptural.

6. Many of the greatest "soul winners" never have, never did, and did not even believe in the Pentecostal idea of speaking in tongues. Let me ask you this: If you were an unbeliever, and you walked into a Pentecostal church where people were rolling around on the floor, shaking around, babbling gibbering, non real language "tongues", and were generally acting like madmen, would you convert? I doubt you would. I'm not saying that many evangelist charasmatics do not and cannot win souls to the body of Christ, but they are not going to do it acting like that. As Paul said before, if you speak in tongues and I do not understand, I am a foreigner to you. If I don't understand what you are saying, you are not edifying the church whatsoever. You are not winning souls.


The list can go on and on, but you get the gist of it. If you want to see the reasons why I state these things, read my OP, and if that still doesn't explain, I will try again. I've never said speaking in tongues is false, yet I do believe many who do it are truly NOT speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit, but rather their own gibberish babble that they've taught themselves.

 

[NoahsMom]

Btw - Not every pentecostal / charismatic believes the way inwhich you describe. There are several pentecostal denominations as well as multiple nondenominational charasmatic belief systems out there as well. AMEN! I was raised COG-Pentecostal all my life, and was never taught if you didnt speak in tongues then obviously you werent spirit filled, nor saved. I grow tired of ppl making assumptions based on what they heard, or were told, or from one single experience. If you do not believe in this gift, fine, if you feel its emotion based, fine, as I have stated before, YES I have seen ppl claim you can LEARN this gift, YES I have seen it abused, that has nothing to do with my walk with God, Nor will it change anything , Im sorry you feel the way you do, may God bless you.

 

[DABEARS85]

One last point before I'm too tired to go on for the moment

MOST IMPORTANT POINT!!!


PENTECOST!

Acts 2:1-12 (KJV)

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Three thousand people were saved there. Three thousand. Why? Was Pentecost about SPEAKING IN TONGUES, or was it about SAVING AND WINNING SOULS FOR THE LORD????

The fact that Pentecostalism FOCUSES on SPEAKING IN TONGUES is the first and greatest flaw! Speaking in tongues was just a conveinance for these people to preach and give the Word of God to the masses. THE WHOLE IDEA WAS TO SAVE SOULS! God didn't care about the languages. God didn't care about who spoke in tongues and who spoke in their native language. All God was concerned with was WINNING SOULS. This is the greatest point I can make, for all of you who keep on claiming that you need to speak in tongues.

To all of you who will profess forever that speaking in tongues is such an importance, let me ask you, how many souls have you won? How many people has your church saved? Is that church there to help yourselves "feel" better emotionally, or is it there to advance the body of Christ and win unbelievers over? I think that is the greatest point.

When you speak in tongues, whether it be real or just gibberish babble that you taught yourself, who are you saving? Have you ever gone to an unbeliever, who may be willing to listen to what you're saying, and try speaking in tongues? Did you speak a real language, or did you speak gibberish that no one in the world could understand? Did you win that soul for Christ?

That was the point of speaking in tongues in Acts and elsewhere. These people NEEDED it to advance the Glory of Christ and give the Word to the rest of the world, despite the language barrier. Any of you more worried about being sanctified, your spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues, looking more spiritually "elite" over other christians, etc, over saving souls, you should be ashamed of yourself.

That is all. As for the rest, you be the judge if you are truly speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit, and thus speaking a REAL LANGUAGE, or if you are speaking random gibberish babble, and thus lying not only to yourself, but to the rest of the church.

 

[DABEARS85]

Btw - Not every pentecostal / charismatic believes the way inwhich you describe. There are several pentecostal denominations as well as multiple nondenominational charasmatic belief systems out there as well. AMEN! I was raised COG-Pentecostal all my life, and was never taught if you didnt speak in tongues then obviously you werent spirit filled, nor saved. I grow tired of ppl making assumptions based on what they heard, or were told, or from one single experience. If you do not believe in this gift, fine, if you feel its emotion based, fine, as I have stated before, YES I have seen ppl claim you can LEARN this gift, YES I have seen it abused, that has nothing to do with my walk with God, Nor will it change anything , Im sorry you feel the way you do, may God bless you.

Well, perhaps this post wasn't meant for you then? I apologize for generalizing, but I did say "some" "most" or "not all" in everything I've ever posted.

I hope people remember that. As you've admitted, you've seen these things I've talked about, where people claimed they could learn the gift, or that they claimed you were not filled with the Spirit if you did not speak in tongues. You were taught better, and that is good! There are many who were not, however, so I think my post was more for them.

Please just realize that I'm talking to specific churches, and yet the Pentecostal doctrine as a whole is based around what I've said. I'm sure there are many Pentecostal churches that stray from what their original "doctrine" states, which is all the better for them, yet not all are like your church!
'
As I've stated, not all Catholics pray to Saints or believe in purgatory. Not all Mormons are polygamists. I'm glad your church isn't one of the emotional scam ones, which is great! However, there are still many that are, the same way as there are many Catholics that still pray to saints and say 100 Hail Marys everyday, thinking this is scriptural.

 

[NoahsMom]

As I've stated, not all Catholics pray to Saints or believe in purgatory. Not all Mormons are polygamists. I'm glad your church isn't one of the emotional scam ones, which is great! However, there are still many that are, the same way as there are many Catholics that still pray to saints and say 100 Hail Marys everyday, thinking this is scriptural.

Agreed! No need to apologize, I get your point, I can understand why ppl get frusterated.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

As I've stated, not all Catholics pray to Saints or believe in purgatory.

Not contradicting you here but just felt like going off on a bit of a tangent. The Roman Catholic Church is a centralized church, so their doctrines come directly from the authority of the Church itself. With Roman Catholicism, unlike many Protestant denominations, you really can point to specific doctrines which apply to the entirety of the Church. The exact some thing is true in the Mormon Church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), maybe even moreso since the Mormons tend to be pretty hardcore when it comes to enforcing their precepts within their Church.

Not all Mormons are polygamists.

Another tangent. Although they used to practice it, polygamy is now banned by the Mormon Church. The people that still practice it aren't legitimate Mormons; they're few in number and have splintered off from the actual Church itself.

Not in any way defending either of these Churches of course, since their teachings don't align with the scriptures.

I'm glad your church isn't one of the emotional scam ones, which is great! However, there are still many that are, the same way as there are many Catholics that still pray to saints and say 100 Hail Marys everyday, thinking this is scriptural.

 

[DABEARS85]

Not contradicting you here but just felt like going off on a bit of a tangent. The Roman Catholic Church is a centralized church, so their doctrines come directly from the authority of the Church itself. With Roman Catholicism, unlike many Protestant denominations, you really can point to specific doctrines which apply to the entirety of the Church. The exact some thing is true in the Mormon Church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), maybe even moreso since the Mormons tend to be pretty hardcore when it comes to enforcing their precepts within their Church.



Another tangent. Although they used to practice it, polygamy is now banned by the Mormon Church. The people that still practice it aren't legitimate Mormons; they're few in number and have splintered off from the actual Church itself.

Not in any way defending either of these Churches of course, since their teachings don't align with the scriptures.

I stand corrected then, although I do know many Catholics at least who have told me they not only do not practice praying to saints, even if they tried to explain to me why they did it (since I always pointed out it wasn't in scripture, yet they take traditions and church doctrine as on the same level), and many did not believe in purgatory either. I guess this makes them not "pure" Catholics, which in my eyes is BETTER, since they aren't misled by some medieval doctrine full of lies. Unfortunately, they did tell me that they still went to confession, which I find appalling for anyone to believe that a priest can forgive you of your sins, rather than the blood of Christ. I'm still trying to work with them, despite them not fully wanting to hear it. Whenever possibly, I throw a few scripture versus out there, assuming they wont completely object at the time. Sometimes, timing is everything!

Anyway, I guess I stand corrected on the church aspect, although some of the members of the denominations don't always follow those aforementioned doctrines.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Yeah it's especially true in Catholocism with such a gigantic religion with believers all over the world that you get some variety of beliefs despite the central authority. As for things various odd teachings and practices they have reasons for them which will be based often in the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical books (such as purgatory, and almsgiving), or on the Church tradition (confession, praying to saints), since like you said they hold to the authority of tradition. Of course, scripture has its own message for us about the traditions of men.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 John 2:26-27)

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. (1 John 2:20-21)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, (2 Peter 1:2-3)

 

[DABEARS85]

I like the stuff you post trust_in_the_name, and many of them are very informative. I guess I really should study more about Catholicism if I'm going to get through to some of my Catholic friends about the need to trust in scripture rather than random church doctrine or tradition, which can be widely false and misleading in some areas.

I've always wondered about the Apocrpha though, since at once time, it was included even in Protestant bibles. I believe the official Catholic stance is that while the books are not on the same level as the other books, they are valuable to remember, rather than take strictly as the Word of God. I'm not sure what to really make of many of them, although the few books of that nature that I've read, I took more as fictional stories/novels, of which help fill in the gaps of different areas in actual scripture. I would liken it toward more of a fictional non-fiction type novel, which is enjoyable to read, but shouldn't be taken as strict biblical scripture. Am I wrong on this, or do the Catholics really take these books as true scripture, despite that many of these books have unknown authors and are questionable as per the time frame they were written? Also,some of those books, such as the Maccabees, are more like historical books rather than scripture, which are also in the Hebrew bibles as well. Am I correct on that? I really should learn more about the subject!

 

[journey41]

"First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there."

This is nothing more than a rationalization that permits you to sit as judge and pick and choose what you want to belive or not believe. What makes you think you are a better judge of true or false than any of the denominations?

He did not appear to be judging one bit. He was very informative and used tons of scripture to reprove and make his case clear. The way you are talking to him is not a way in which a christian should speak. The world speaks likes this. We are to be different.

Either one of the "denominations" is the true Church or Jesus is a liar (Matt. 16:18).

What does this prove? I'm trying to understand why you quoted this? Are you trying to say that the church was built on Peter? Because we all know that the church was built on Christ, and Christ is the rock, the cornerstone. I'm a little confused?

Ask yourself, can your head go one direction while your body goes another? If not, then what makes you believe the Church (the body of Christ) could lapse into error while Christ (the head) remains faithful? Are you saying also that Paul was wrong to say the Church is the body of Christ?

God is spirit and his true church is spirit. Do you not recall what Jesus said;
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things theirin, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in TEMPLES made with HANDS.

God does NOT DWELL in CHURCHES. This is a big clue if there ever was one. Why do you all argue???? Where does he dwell?
1 Corinth 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the SPIRIT of GOD DWELLS in YOU.

Gods church is all over the place. It consists of the true believers. It is made up of those that are worshipping in spirit and in truth. It is not an organisation. It is Zion, a spiritual church. Gods woman.

Is there really no essential difference for God's people under the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant? Is the people of God just as liable to error under the New Covenant as they were under the Old Covenant? If so, then what did Christ accomplish for us if we are still in the same boat we were in previously?

I must of missed something??? What has this got to do with churches speaking in tongues?

The only essential difference I see between Roman Catholicism and non-denominationalism is that in the Roman Catholicism only one man gets to be Pope and pronounce infallible doctrine; in non-denominationalism every man gets to be Pope and proclaim doctrine for everyone else.

I think that there are a lot of differences, although the trinity issue stems from catholic.

According to Paul (Eph. 5), Christ loved the Church and gave His life for her. Why can't you be like Christ and stop picking the Church apart and love her instead?

Yes, Christ loved the church,.... the true worshippers. Correction is love. He wants you all too see the truth and he used scripture to prove his case. He cared enough to share and was very gentlemanly about his approach. He did not want to offend anyone, that was so clear, nor was he harsh with his words. If you are offended, then he must of hit a nerve.

If what you have is love, then, no thank you.

That was a little harsh, and hostile. I know who I would rather listen to. You should re-think your position in Christ. I am a witness to the truth spoken by this young man.

 

[Scotth1960]

This is a re-posting of an old thread, of which I had all my posts cut off into very small paragraphs, and thus muddying and ruining the OP. I apologize to everyone who read that and is now reading the same thing here, but I was cut off, and I had written FAR more than what I posted. I used that thread as a "test" to see what went wrong with the forum bug, so hopefully, this thread will be my final CORRECT effort in conveying my thoughts and opinions on the subject. I appreciate everyone taking the time to read, and possibly respond to what I say, good or bad! In the end, everything is for the Glory of Christ, and I truly don't want to create hardened hearts and/or make anyone upset with what I say. If you don't agree, we can respectfully discuss it, and perhaps either one of us will see the truth, or we will agree to disagree With all that being said... READ ON!!!!

Dear friend, The correct doctrine of speaking in tongues is that on the Day of Pentecost, there were actual foreign languages being spoken: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Lydian, Phrygian, Aramaic, and so on. All the languages of the ancient world. This event was transitional and not repeated later in Church history. As for 1 Cor. 12 and 14, these, too were actually human foreign languages, understood and comprehended by someone, and then translated into the common tongue of the Greek language. What English is today, the Greek language was in NT times. Take care. Thus the NT was written in GREEK. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Timofree]

This is a very good post! Perhaps, I was not completely clear on everything I've said, although I still will believe what I've interpreted through reading scripture and prayer.

I think... (and to sum it up for the rest of you who asked me to!) my main thoughts are this:

Many charismatic type churches, including pentecostal/Assembly of God, etc proclaim that "to be filled in the Spirit, you MUST speak in tongues." This is false.

Let me make a list of my points:

1. You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be filled in the Spirit. This is false doctrine. Speaking in Tongues is but one of the gifts of the Spirit, and yet, it is the LEAST of all these gifts, as Paul stated.

2. Arrogance of "some" charismatic types of being "better" and more spiritually "alive" Christians: This is false doctrine. They claim that, because they speak in tongues, they are "more" filled with the Holy Spirit, "better" Christians, "other" denominations or believers are either wrong or spiritually dead, etc. This is false.

3. Many charismatic types claim to speak in tongues, and yet they do not speak in real languages. They speak in gibberish, which is an emotional scam. In scripture, EVERYONE who spoke in tongues used REAL languages, and foreigners could understand them. In these churches full of "fake" speakers of tongues, no one understands what they are saying, and the church is NOT edified, nor are they themselves. Also, the interpretations are lies as well, leading the church and all its followers astray. The Lord warns against this very strongly, and we should all be aware of what is going on in these churches. They are not producing the fruits of the Spirit, but rather producing lies and disillusions of their own minds.

4. Some charismatic types will claim that those who do not speak in tongues are not faithful, bad Christians, living in deep sin, or something along that nature. This is false doctrine, as well as harmful to the body of Christ. As others have stated, they almost lost their faith based on these people telling them they are both not filled with the Spirit, but they are basically sinful heathens who have little faith. The problem is, most of those who speak in tongues are truly not doing it through the Spirit, and they are mere victims of emotional sensationalism which can create all kinds of disillusions, ecstatic feelings, and harmful openings in their spiritual life where evil influences can enter.

5. God does NOT use emotion for spiritually mature Christians, but rather the immature "babies" who do not have strong pillars of faith to stand on. Scripture clearly states this, and yet charismatic churches are BASED AROUND emotional feelings and insane acts that are not only lies, but harmful to their followers. Many Christians follow blindly, they are arrogant and ignorant of what scripture says, and they simply believe whatever they are told. This is wrong, against the Lord's teachings, and should not be happening. The entire idea of charismatic churches of "emotion" is false doctrine, since it is not scriptural.

6. Many of the greatest "soul winners" never have, never did, and did not even believe in the Pentecostal idea of speaking in tongues. Let me ask you this: If you were an unbeliever, and you walked into a Pentecostal church where people were rolling around on the floor, shaking around, babbling gibbering, non real language "tongues", and were generally acting like madmen, would you convert? I doubt you would. I'm not saying that many evangelist charasmatics do not and cannot win souls to the body of Christ, but they are not going to do it acting like that. As Paul said before, if you speak in tongues and I do not understand, I am a foreigner to you. If I don't understand what you are saying, you are not edifying the church whatsoever. You are not winning souls.


The list can go on and on, but you get the gist of it. If you want to see the reasons why I state these things, read my OP, and if that still doesn't explain, I will try again. I've never said speaking in tongues is false, yet I do believe many who do it are truly NOT speaking in tongues through the Holy Spirit, but rather their own gibberish babble that they've taught themselves.

Apologies, I skipped through your first message, and came to my own conclusions about what you'd said, looks like we agree more then I thought!
Speaking in tongues is no way a sign of being filled with the Spirit, and I can only imagine the upset it would cause someone who was pressured by their church!! We knew someone who was fluent in Spanish at our church many years ago, and well you can see where that's going

 

[DanuckInUSA]

So this is a cry out to dispensationalism?

 

[zone]

God is spirit and his true church is spirit. Do you not recall what Jesus said;
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things theirin, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in TEMPLES made with HANDS.

God does NOT DWELL in CHURCHES. This is a big clue if there ever was one. Why do you all argue???? Where does he dwell?
1 Corinth 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the SPIRIT of GOD DWELLS in YOU.

Gods church is all over the place. It consists of the true believers. It is made up of those that are worshipping in spirit and in truth. It is not an organisation. It is Zion, a spiritual church. Gods woman..

then why are you pushing for another Temple God will be "pleased with"?

 

[zone]

..Dear friend, My experience with "speaking in tongues" may or may not be typical of A/G (Assemblies of God) Pentecostalism. I was an Evangelical Lutheran, but I seem to have felt something was missing in my Christian experience as a Lutheran. So I went to first Assembly of God here in Erie PA when the church was located at the old 32nd and Liberty street. It since has become a doctor's office.

Anyway, I went for the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the "initial physical evidence of speaking in other tongues" that was standard A/G doctrine. I have since come to believe the tongues described in Acts (Acts 2, Acts 19, etc.) were legitimate, human foreign languages such as Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Armenian, Arabic, Ethiopian, etc. Actually languages of first century Palestine.

The practice of "tongues" as I did it was a form of self-hypnosis, or hypnosis at the suggestion of the Pentecostal brethren, I now believe. I still have the remnants of what I view as a psychological illness of sorts.

People with damaged emotions and feelings of guilt over personal sins may be susceptible to this self-induced form of charismatic hysteria. I view it as just one other mental disorder. I don't believe it is a valid form of speaking in tongues, as it was practiced in Acts 2 originally. These were intelligible foreign languages.

Tongues as I have spoken them are incomprehensible. I am just babbling out loud. May God forgive me for being so susceptible to other spirits and a kind of neurosis that this certainly is, if not a psychosis, which would be worse.

Sometimes I am still afflicted with this disease. I don't view it as really either having edified or necessarily irreparably harmed me, either. It is just an embarrassing annoyance. I think the Holy Spirit is more intelligent than to inspire such corrupt babbling.

Maybe I am wrong now about this, but I am not ashamed to say it, though I don't want to upset any Pentecostal brethren. I just view it as unnecessary. All we need in Christ is faith, hope, love, joy, the fruit of the Spirit, more than seeking for spiritual gifts. God will give gifts if He wills, but we should let Him bestow them on us, we don't have to actively seek them. They will come from knowing Him and His Word. From knowing Jesus Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

i admire the courageous truthful testimony (many have come out and testified as you have).

A/G (Assemblies of God) Pentecostalism

a little research into the origins and foundation of this movement could enlighten and deliver many.
here's hoping some will bother.
good job.
zone

 

[xJoe]

bottom line.
Read 1 Corinthians chapter 14 and tell me how you can defend current day tongues?
1 Corinthians 14:19
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
what is the point talking in a unknown tongue that no one understands?

Speaking in tongues was so people who did not speak the language would be able to understand. As in all tongues comprehend what is being said. Now if a church could do that then alright. But if you get up there and make weird sounds with your mouth then it is anti biblical.

 

[STRUGGLING]

Please ask theLord to channel "all that" to the edification(building up) of the True Body and continue to warn and admonish also From a hungry member of the True Church

 

[trust_in_the_name]

I like the stuff you post trust_in_the_name, and many of them are very informative. I guess I really should study more about Catholicism if I'm going to get through to some of my Catholic friends about the need to trust in scripture rather than random church doctrine or tradition, which can be widely false and misleading in some areas.

It can be difficult to communicate with a Catholic about scripture because the Church, not the individual members, holds the authority to interpret the scriptures, which is a fundamental difference from those of us who take the scriptures on their own authority as the inspired word of God. So, regardless of what you or anyone else might think is the accurate understanding of a passage, it won't matter because in their belief system the Church is always right because it is the only one with the authority from God to give the correct understanding. As you can imagine, that can make it quite difficult to come to any kind of agreement. Ultimately, the Catholic simply accepts the Church teaching and has no real reason to form their own ideas about things. No doubt this is why historically it has been so hard to bridge the gap.

I've always wondered about the Apocrpha though, since at once time, it was included even in Protestant bibles. I believe the official Catholic stance is that while the books are not on the same level as the other books, they are valuable to remember, rather than take strictly as the Word of God. I'm not sure what to really make of many of them, although the few books of that nature that I've read, I took more as fictional stories/novels, of which help fill in the gaps of different areas in actual scripture. I would liken it toward more of a fictional non-fiction type novel, which is enjoyable to read, but shouldn't be taken as strict biblical scripture. Am I wrong on this, or do the Catholics really take these books as true scripture, despite that many of these books have unknown authors and are questionable as per the time frame they were written? Also,some of those books, such as the Maccabees, are more like historical books rather than scripture, which are also in the Hebrew bibles as well. Am I correct on that? I really should learn more about the subject!

I think what you have said here seems about right, although if I recall correctly Catholics do take some of them as genuine scripture. They are interesting books with historical significance, and I have them all in the middle of my NRSV Study Bible. They can be a good read, however, are they "given by inspiration of God," "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)? There are dozens of different points where they are clearly opposed to the teachings found in the accepted scriptures, so they cannot be good for these things. I did a post just last week or so where I went through the book of Tobit as an example and pointed out some of the serious problems, such as instruction in witchcraft and an angel who blatantly lies.

 

[loveschild]

Why don't you just ask God to let you speak in tongues and get over it. Stop being jealous of ones who do. Its in the bible In Acts. Should we change the bible just cause you don't speak. Its in the bible. Open your mouth. Its not hard. Some get it all fast some don't. You don't have to do it. But its a gift you should want. There are books you can buy to help you do it. Buy one. Stop going against the word. God bless you very much!

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Why don't you just ask God to let you speak in tongues and get over it. Stop being jealous of ones who do. Its in the bible In Acts. Should we change the bible just cause you don't speak. Its in the bible. Open your mouth. Its not hard. Some get it all fast some don't. You don't have to do it. But its a gift you should want. There are books you can buy to help you do it. Buy one. Stop going against the word. God bless you very much!

Speaking in tongues means speaking in a foreign language, not mouthing random sounds. Anyone can make up random words. How is that miraculous?