No living faith without works

[Just_A__Follower]

We're too dumb to explain them Just.

Wha do you expect from dumb persons that think they understand what Jesus taught for over 3 years?

It's better to just keep thinking what you're thinking
and to keep asking what you're asking.

It gets you a lot of attention,,,
which you apparently need.

I don’t need attention at all nor want it. I just wanted to understand another’s view. It’s just hard to understand a view that noone can explain. Oh well. Guess I’ll give up trying to learn.

 

[Inquisitor]

Wow.
Paul wrote 14 books just to say that?

Thirteen letters if you accept that the author of Hebrews was Paul.

Ultimately, Romans 10 is the sole cause of our salvation.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

If you can hold Romans 10:13 then your theology is sound.

 

[Dino246]

Is the Holy Spirit not God?


Hmmm.
It sure seems like that's what the text says.

seems like something important to undersand.



Or,,,you're not willing to post the reply.

Some on here are very reluctant to post scripture to support their view.

Guess they're incapable of using scripture to support their view.

I shake my head.

 

[Toknow]

It takes time.

The concept of a new creation in Christ is not something that everyone, would understand?

I thought grace and the free gift would be suffiicient for now.

Oh.
I think I could handle understanding anything you wish to discuss.
We know about grace.
We know about free will.

How would you explain the new creation in Christ?

But tomorrow...

 

[Toknow]

Thirteen letters if you accept that the author of Hebrews was Paul.

Ultimately, Romans 10 is the sole cause of our salvation.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

If you can hold Romans 10:13 then your theology is sound.

I do believe that we all accept Romans 10:13
if Paul said it,,,
it must be true.

 

[Toknow]

Thirteen letters if you accept that the author of Hebrews was Paul.

It's pretty much accepted now (whatever that means - I'm not even sure)
that probably Paul did not actually pen Hebrews but certainly one of his students did...
or, he gave the ideas and the othe person wrote them down in his own manner.
It's in the NT so I don't think about this too much.

Ultimately, Romans 10 is the sole cause of our salvation.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

If you can hold Romans 10:13 then your theology is sound.

 

[Toknow]

Anyone that thinks that salvation is partly earned by good works or otherwise.

We are saved by God' s grace through faith.
Right?

 

[Toknow]

I don’t need attention at all nor want it. I just wanted to understand another’s view. It’s just hard to understand a view that noone can explain. Oh well. Guess I’ll give up trying to learn.

Yes.
Give up on trying to learn this one aspect of Christianity.
Move on to something else.
You're stuck in a moment
and you can't get out of it.

 

[Toknow]

I shake my head.

Don't shake it too hard Dino.

 

[Toknow]

So you admit you don’t know if your works are complete. That means you can’t actually know if you’re saved.

But Jesus said, “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Where’s the rest in a system where you spend your whole life wondering if you’ve done enough?

§When are you going to STOP making silly comments?
I wrote you a long post regarding the above.

You STILL ask the same silly question.

Seems to me that YOU spend your whole life wondering about salvation and
you project this on to others.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

§When are you going to STOP making silly comments?
I wrote you a long post regarding the above.

You STILL ask the same silly question.

Seems to me that YOU spend your whole life wondering about salvation and
you project this on to others.

What was silly about my comments? Why is the question silly? Just because you can’t answer it, does that make it silly. Have you always avoided questions about your view when asked?

Here’s you another silly question. How can you tell the difference between genuine faith and just faithfully doing the required works?

 

[Inquisitor]

People without faith can appear to have good works, but they don't really. A lady can give a mite and have done a good work while others can give abundantly and it is not a good work. The motivation behind the action is important. Since it is impossible to please God apart from faith, your statement is false.

A good tree produces good fruit.

 

[Cameron143]

A good tree produces good fruit.

My point was that 2 people can perform the same act and one be accepted and the other not. Think Cain and Abel.

 

[Inquisitor]

So then once you're "saved" you no longer need works right? They become meaningless, correct? Your saved. A done deal. I dare say, completed.

As to your question to assume it needs reconciling is also to assume there is a conflict. What James does is correct the error of thinking faith alone saves us. There is no conflict james just completes the theology by reminding us Abrahams faith was brought to completion by his actions.

Ah yes the thief on the cross. That's your gotcha move right? Not really. I'll say it for the millionth time, salvation belongs to God alone and he can do with it what pleases just like owner of the vineyard in Matthews gospel. God doesn't need your approval or mine to give his salvation in full measure to whoever he wishes. It doesn't relieve you of your responsibilities.

Abraham never completed the work at Mt Moriah.

The angel stopped Abraham from completing that work.

Thus, Abraham was still reckoned righteous by the Lord because he believed the Lord.

 

[Toknow]

What was silly about my comments? Why is the question silly? Just because you can’t answer it, does that make it silly. Have you always avoided questions about your view when asked?

Here’s you another silly question. How can you tell the difference between genuine faith and just faithfully doing the required works?

Just,,,

I not only answered your question...
I reposted it for you in case you missed it the first time around.

I'll post the answers you're looking for AGAIN....
a 3rd time.

I'm willing to make a money bet with anyone here...
that you WILL CONTINUE to ask the same questions
AND TO ME!

Which I have replied to and will now refuse to CONTINUE to reply to.


Third try:

From thread: LOSS OF SALVATION, POST NO. 8764


Here it is copied and pasted:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn’t arguing for or against OSAS. I was simply using AI as a quick way to show the issues in your post. You would have had the same reaction whether I used AI or said them on my own.

You’ve dismissed a few questions that I’ve seen. This was your post:

Will check to see what questions I've dismissed.

AI listed them this way:

• What counts as losing faith?
• Is a single sin enough?
• Is prolonged rebellion required?

I’ve personally asked you if we must do works then how many. I’ve also asked what sins cause you to lose salvation.

First, the answers to AI's points:
APOSTACY
A SINFUL LIFE which is disobedience to God

NO unless it's serious (murder) or unless it is ongoing for a long time...see reply one.


YES but don't ask how long...it's one of those silly questions


Now, I'll reply to YOUR questions.
HOW MANY WORKS?
No one ever asks what a work is?
What do YOU think a work is?? (not dodging)

Man sins every day.
We do our best.
We ask God to forgive us. (some don't even think we're supposed to ask for forgiveness)
There's a difference between sining and living in sin.
John explains this in 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John 3:9 (can't post it- getting too late and must leave).

When you get on a highway, it’s not wrong to want to know the speed limit so you don’t get a ticket. A baseball player wants to know how many strikes they get before they’re out. Clear standards matter.

Sure. But Jesus told us what to do.
This is not a baseball game with set rules.
Jesus said to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NIEGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Are we doing this?
What does it entail?
Maybe to you it means something different than it does to me.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something different than I do.
no set rules.
We do have the 10C


What do you want to hear?
you want to hear that if we sin 6 times in one day we're lost?
It's not possible.
We'd need to keep a tally of our sins and concentrate on them all day long.

This is why I say it's a silly question.

The same type of questions can be asked of the OSAS position as well. For example, if someone claims to be saved but later becomes a serial killer, are they still saved? These questions simply test the consistency of the doctrine.

But you see...you gave a pefect example of why OSAS cannot be true.
So you DO understand.
C Stanly said we could murder someone and still be saved.
This is preposterous.
The Holy Spirit cannot live with sin.

Here’s a couple scenarios:

1)One person believes in OSAS and if they fall away, well then they never truly believed to begin with.

2)Another person believes they can fall away and lose their salvation.

Yes. The outcome is the same.
The problem is in teaching our faith.
We must teach what the NT teaches.
If someone never was really Christian...they're lost anyway.

We have to ASSUME that the person is saved.
jesus said they are saved...Luke 8:13, Luke 15:24 THEN fell away.

The person that believes he can fall away is safer....because falling away is something he must do of his
own free will. You don't just fall away as you're getting out of bed one morning.
You must consciously decide that you no longer can follow God...just like you decide that you DO want to follow God.


The person that believes they can fall away and not lose their salvation is in true peril.
Since God hates sin and disobedience...wouldn't you agree that this type of believer is in peril ?

3) And another isn’t sure that they are saved.

This is terrible and something we never discuss on these Forums.
I have written to some and I always bring up the Prodigal Son.
Also, if a person is worried about not being saved...
it most probably means that they are.

Now if any of the people endure to the end then they are saved. If any don’t endure to the end they are not saved. Same outcome no matter what one believes now. Now if a person believes they can live how they want then they are delusional and don’t love God anyways.

I think that's very sound reasoning !

As for Charles Stanley, I’ve never listened to or read anything of his. But do you believe if a Christian murders someone, they are not able to repent?

Sure. God will forgive any sin. If the person is sorry.
But he was saying that they ALREADY REPENTED once !
And once is all that is necessary.

This is damnable doctrine and those that teach this will answer to God.

 

[Standard]

Standard
An extension of your premise is warranted. The least recognized concept of salvation is that we are saved body, soul and spirit. Our resurrection will not be just the part of our grey matter that "contains" what we call faith. We are a soul that has a body, they are indivisible, thus we are indivisible. We can not "get our souls saved" without being fully bodily saved. We can not just claim to love God in our minds without loving God with our entire being, body and soul.

In the same way faith and works are inseparable but there is actually a bigger and more unifying framework that is left out our "Salvation by".....dogmas. Jesus and Paul make it clear, that the reborn person, the converted person will come to understand that salvation at its core is only about one thing...Love.

We are to love like Jesus loved, who he loved, how deeply he loved, how sacrificially His love is. It is easy to dismiss the Hebrew Bible model of sacrifice because we restrict it to some kind of animal thing. It was a long learning curve to teach humans that any right relationship with God is based on our sacrifice, often many kinds of sacrifice and always sacrifice for the right reasons. Many sacrificed their 1st born sons via pledging them to God for life. All who sacrificed weekly cost them time, money and even food off their table. At the end of that age, God showed us what the ultimate sacrifice was in Jesus the Christ. If the cross of Jesus does not teach us that love requires loving sacrifice then we have no hope. If it does not teach us that we too are called to take up our cross daily and deliver sacrificial love then we have purposefully reject the heart of the Gospel of Christ.

We have replaced all concept of our sacrifice. We reject all important forms of sacrifice. We "are guaranteed" a free ticket to heaven by nodding to a 60 pulpit prayer. Thus our "sacrifice" is that we "make room for Jesus in our heart."

Paul made it clear, if your horizontal and vertical relationships in life are not driven by love then it is just "noise." Jesus was crystal clear, if you love God you must obey God and submit to His transformation of your life. If you love God you must love your neighbor. Jesus story of the "Good Samaritan" is a story we love to tell but it is usually taught as a story showing the hypocrisy of the Jewish clergy. Is not. It is a clear statement that loving your neighbor requires personal involvement, personal care and an uncapped expenditure of money to bring God's love to those most in need. In 21st Century Protestant and Non- Denominational Christianity we assume these people are the responsibility. This is based on the delusional belief that we are in the "saving souls" business.

And here we sit trying to split hairs with 45,000 competing Christian dogmas trying to find comfort, self-interest, self-righteousness, convenience and personal freedom of choice in all matters. Way more that half of those attending Christian service don't even give money yet we disparage those O.T. Jews who paid 10% of all they owned to support God's work and added a weekly sacrifice out of their flocks, cattle, crops showing weekly they were willing to take food off their table weekly to obey God.

The New Testament is clear. There is no division between our souls and the rest of our body. We are souls. You can attempt dissect humans into physical, mental and spiritual components for purposes of making your dogmas work. That is why there 45,000 competing Christian dogmas. We are trying to recruit people of the same race, same income level, same politics, same education level, same knowledge worker and same culture. That is why our Protestant and non-denominal churches look the way they do. There is zero correlation between super comfortable dogma based recruiting and sacrificial and loving embracing of all who seek God.

If you think what you define as faith alone will save you, read 1st Corinthians 13 and Matthew 25.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

As proof it's not enough to believe: James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe — and tremble.

Our faith will be shown genuine through love that expresses what is in our hearts. It's not enough to just know. The demons know and it's to no avail as they have no love in them. God isn't in them and He is love.
May the love in our faith always shine through for the world to see, in Jesus' name, amen!

Good extension and post, Biblestudent78

 

[Edward429451]

So you admit you don’t know if your works are complete. That means you can’t actually know if you’re saved.

That's not correct at all though. Works don't have anything hardly to do with salvation. WHy can't people accept that salvation is a free gift and then move on to something else?! Let's now go to works, what are works for? Works (fruit) largely determines our station in Heaven. Our position.

Like for example maybe you're a ditch digger here on earth somehow stuck in a crappy trade (!) I wouldn't want to be a ditch digger again in heaven, can we move up to a desk Job? (Or a more desirable job)

Now we know that there will be rank in Heaven because in scripture it is noted that some will be called the least in heaven. So there has to be the better in heaven and the best in heaven also.

See, now I am retired now, but I was a Plumber, Heating & A/C, Electrical guy and I did enjoy most of the trades, however...there are quite a few aspects of plumbing that I do not like doing. I don't want to be the Plumber again!

Faith is also proof of the Lord in us, of our walk, but not having works wont make anyone lose their salvation. Remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus? Jesus said, ok today you will be in paradise with me. That guy had no time to do any works, right? He was hanging on a cross.

I think little works will affect ones privileges' in heaven. Think of any one of the Temples. You have the Outer Court. You have the Holy Place, and you have the Holy of Holies. I think people with no works are in the outer court and may not be allowed into the Holy Place or the most Holy Place,

I know. We are thee Temple now, but we are 3 sections also. Spirit. Soul and Body, same thing as the Temple manifested.

 

[Dino246]

WHy can't people accept that salvation is a free gift and then move on to something else?!

Without works, the self-righteous have no basis for denigrating others while assuring themselves of their own great standing before God.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Just,,,

I not only answered your question...
I reposted it for you in case you missed it the first time around.

I'll post the answers you're looking for AGAIN....
a 3rd time.

I'm willing to make a money bet with anyone here...
that you WILL CONTINUE to ask the same questions
AND TO ME!

Which I have replied to and will now refuse to CONTINUE to reply to.


Third try:

From thread: LOSS OF SALVATION, POST NO. 8764


Here it is copied and pasted:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Will check to see what questions I've dismissed.


First, the answers to AI's points:
APOSTACY
A SINFUL LIFE which is disobedience to God

NO unless it's serious (murder) or unless it is ongoing for a long time...see reply one.


YES but don't ask how long...it's one of those silly questions


Now, I'll reply to YOUR questions.
HOW MANY WORKS?
No one ever asks what a work is?
What do YOU think a work is?? (not dodging)

Man sins every day.
We do our best.
We ask God to forgive us. (some don't even think we're supposed to ask for forgiveness)
There's a difference between sining and living in sin.
John explains this in 1 John chapters 1 and 2 and 1 John 3:9 (can't post it- getting too late and must leave).


Sure. But Jesus told us what to do.
This is not a baseball game with set rules.
Jesus said to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NIEGHBOR AS YOURSELF

Are we doing this?
What does it entail?
Maybe to you it means something different than it does to me.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is calling you to do something different than I do.
no set rules.
We do have the 10C


What do you want to hear?
you want to hear that if we sin 6 times in one day we're lost?
It's not possible.
We'd need to keep a tally of our sins and concentrate on them all day long.

This is why I say it's a silly question.


But you see...you gave a pefect example of why OSAS cannot be true.
So you DO understand.
C Stanly said we could murder someone and still be saved.
This is preposterous.
The Holy Spirit cannot live with sin.


Yes. The outcome is the same.
The problem is in teaching our faith.
We must teach what the NT teaches.
If someone never was really Christian...they're lost anyway.

We have to ASSUME that the person is saved.
jesus said they are saved...Luke 8:13, Luke 15:24 THEN fell away.

The person that believes he can fall away is safer....because falling away is something he must do of his
own free will. You don't just fall away as you're getting out of bed one morning.
You must consciously decide that you no longer can follow God...just like you decide that you DO want to follow God.


The person that believes they can fall away and not lose their salvation is in true peril.
Since God hates sin and disobedience...wouldn't you agree that this type of believer is in peril ?

This is terrible and something we never discuss on these Forums.
I have written to some and I always bring up the Prodigal Son.
Also, if a person is worried about not being saved...
it most probably means that they are.



I think that's very sound reasoning !

Sure. God will forgive any sin. If the person is sorry.
But he was saying that they ALREADY REPENTED once !
And once is all that is necessary.

This is damnable doctrine and those that teach this will answer to God.

Want to play a game and see who can find all the methods you use? Below are the common ways people avoid answering questions on forums:

1. Deflection – Changing the topic instead of addressing the question.

2. Answering a Different Question – Reframing the question into something easier to answer.

3. Strawman – Misrepresenting the argument and responding to that instead.

4. Questioning Motives – Claiming the question is asked in bad faith.

5. Ad Hominem – Attacking the person instead of addressing the argument.

6. Appeal to Emotion – Using emotional responses instead of logical answers.

7. Long Tangents – Writing a long response that buries the original question.

8. Red Herring – Introducing an unrelated issue to distract from the question.

9. Moving the Goalposts – Changing the standard after a point has been answered.

10. Selective Quoting – Responding only to the easiest part while ignoring the main question.

11. Overgeneralizing – Making broad statements instead of addressing the specific issue.

12. Appeal to Authority – Citing an authority instead of explaining the reasoning.

13. Semantic Arguments – Arguing about word definitions rather than the point.

14. Pretending the Question Was Answered – Claiming they answered it when they didn’t.

15. Ignoring the Question – Responding but skipping the question entirely.

16. Whataboutism – Responding with “what about this other issue?”

17. Gish Gallop – Flooding the discussion with many claims at once.

18. False Dichotomy – Presenting only two options when more exist.

19. Appeal to Mystery – Saying the issue can’t be understood or known.

20. Conversation Exit – Abruptly ending the discussion when the question becomes difficult.

21. Question with a Question – Instead of answering, they respond with another question to shift the burden back to you.

 

[Edward429451]

Without works, the self-righteous have no basis for denigrating others while assuring themselves of their own great standing before God.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.