No living faith without works

[Toknow]

I never said that protestants were perfect. I was just sharing my personal experience that I had in the Roman Catholic church.

In regard to John 3:36, those who do not obey the Son are those who do not believe in/on the Son. The KJV renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. This is in harmony with (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26)

MMD
Had to leave yesterday and can't remember which posts I've addressed....and I have too many alerts to g back and check.
Sorry if this is a repeat.

You're familiar with the Greek and so am I to a VERY LIMITED extent.


You're referencing John 3:36

Let's try to understand this,,,,


John 3:36 makes two statements:

1. Those who believe will be saved.

2. Those who do not obey will be lost.

Since you like the Greek...let's use it in this case.


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

That's the NASB...which I use because it strives for a word by word translation.

The words in question are BELIEVES ...................... he who believes.
and
OBEY ...............................he who does not obey.


In Greek the words BELIEVE and OBEY are two different words.


BELIEVES
PISTEUON ....... TO ENTRUST
STRONG'S 4100


Instead


OBEY
APEITHON......TO DISOBEY
STRONG'S 544


it's clear that John 3:36 is stating that those that BELIEVE must also OBEY.

If this were a stand alone verse....we could debate it..,.
but IT IS NOT.

The NT teaches obedience throughout and I've psoted many passages,
including what Jesus Himself taught.


It would really be nice if you looked into this and explained why you cannot accept this explanation....
and I've been trying for years now.

How would you explain the fact that two different words are used?

 

[Toknow]

I'm actually not a Calvinist and Romans 8:30 is scripture. I don't promote fatalistic determination.

I know.
So don't use calvinist verses that do not mean what calvinists THINK they mean and which definition you seem to be accepting.

 

[Toknow]

No, it’s neither convoluted nor unbiblical. It’s actually straightforward, but people like to misrepresent, complicate, and corrupt it.

Please show, using scripure, where the NT writers teach that FAITH ALONE is valid.

I just can't find this in the NT.

You might also want to define your understanding of faith alone because the definition might be the problem here.

Here is my understanding of FAITH ALONE.

We are saved ONLY BY FAITH.
Works cannot save a person...but only faith in God.

Once we become saved....
FAITH ALONE is no longer valid.

Agreed??

 

[Toknow]

Well speak for yourself on both issues. You will find no one on this forum (and I have been here years longer than my avatar info suggests) that has ever said we can sin like a boatload of pagan sailors and disregard the fact that we are to keep ourselves as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Yet, people with a high regard for their own opinion, without any proof of their claims, come on board and say things such as you are saying in the post I have quoted.

Which forums have you frequented wherein people are told it's ok to sin away with no consequences as long as once upon a time you said Jesus was your Savior.

Put up or...well...close your beak.

pinebeach.....
YOU may not have come across some that state that we could even blaspheme God and STILL be saved...but they're present on these boards.

You also state what YOU believe. Does this mean you have a high regard for yourself??


Here is what I'm saying, just to clarify.

We are saved by faith in God.

AFTER we're saved....we are required to obey God.

If you find this to be incorrect and this teaching is not found in the NT...
perhaps you could show why it is wrong WITH scripture.

That would be the right course of action to take.

How many Forums I've been on is not the topic at hand.

 

[Toknow]

Ok, you've coaxed another response...

Quote: "Difficult for you to explain away all those verses"

-Why would I do that? It's scripture. You don't explain it away, you accept what's true and it's the word of God.

Quote: "Funny, because I've done it with yours"

-There's your problem. You've just said what you do to scripture.

Quote: "As far as I'm concered,,,there has been no back and forth.
There has been YOU posting scripture that you do not quite understand....
and me explaining it to you"

- Sounds like a back and forth.
You're a contrarian. You hear something and just oppose it.

Really, be blessed and not so condemning of others, God will call whom He pleases and we thank Him for it.

Standard.....
Here's how Forums work:

I make a statement.
I back it up with scripture.

You don't agree.
You must show with scripture why you do not agree.

AND
you must also show why the scripture I POSTED is wrong, in your view.
This requires explaing why you don't agree.

Most "explain away" verses using paragrapsh of their own opinion.
this is what I mean by explain away.

But, of course, you are not required to engage in any of my scriptural assertations.
But just stating that you don't agree is not very useful either.

 

[Toknow]

To some extent, yes.

Exactly.

Only the saved have obeyed by choosing to believe in/on the Son and only the saved obey Him after they have been saved by believing.

Not always.
Some do not obey.
Some thing they don't have to obey.
Some continue in a life of sin.
Some go back to a life of sin believing their good to go because they have previously confessed belief.

Maybe you base too much of your theology on what you, personally, have experienced.

This is why it's good to use scrpture.

Those who refuse to believe in the Son have not obeyed the Son and will see the wrath of God. (John 3:36)

I just posted to you regarding John 3:36

John 3.36 does NOT help your understanding of obedience.

A believer MUST obey God in order to remain saved....
in order to remain in the New Covenant.
In order to remain in fellowship with God.

The Holy Spirit will not live with a person that does not believe obedience is important or necessary.
He will leave that person.


Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



Disobeying God is sinning.


Psalm 51:10-13
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You.
David knew he had sinned.
He wants to be RESOTRED.
Sin separates us from God.
Disobeying God is sinning.

Did David WANT to obey Go?
Did he?

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe in the Son. (John 3:36) In Romans 10:16, we further see - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

You conflate coming to God
with
Staying with God.

It's important to separate these two states.

No one is saved unless they come to God.......FAITH
No one remains in a saved state unless they obey God......OBEDIENCE.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience (works) which "follow."

Wrong Dan.

We must obey God AFTER we become saved.


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


UNBELIEVERS are not required to obey God.
BELIEVERS are required to obey god.

 

[Toknow]

Pot calling the kettle black.

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

But you do boast.

Your boasting is that we obey only in receiving the gospel.

You boast in that you state that obedience is not a MUST AFTER salvation....
as if God will go against His own word and save a Christian ANYWAY,,,
even if THEY DO NOT OBEY.

We MUST obey God after salvation.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Toknow]

LOL! Public forum. You made public comments with no proof of what you say. I understand. People who make the claims you are making never ever have the proof to back it up.

You just got here pinebeach.

I always back up my statements with scripture.

Otherwise,,,,,I'm just posting my opinion.

Hang around and see.

 

[Toknow]

As I've pointed out, we are saved by grace, through faith. Since you have so little idea what grace is, I suggest you look into that.

I'll make it a point to look into grace.


However,,,we are saved by God's grace through our faith.


In post no. 517 @Dino246 was responding to a post of mine.

I made the comment that FAITH ALONE sounds like a convoluted idea because it is not taught in the bible.

Dino said people like me ** complicate and corrupt the idea of FAITH ALONE.

So, I sincerely believe that, maybe, the two of you could agree on what FAITH ALONE means.

And I'd love to have a definiton of FAITH ALONE since there seems to be some confusion nowadays.
(since the reformation in 1500AD)

So, since we agree that we are saved BY GRACE,,,,through FAITH.....

what exactly does FAITH ALONE mean to you?


**people who state that God must be obeyed.

 

[Toknow]

Ok, you've coaxed another response...

Quote: "Difficult for you to explain away all those verses"

-Why would I do that? It's scripture. You don't explain it away, you accept what's true and it's the word of God.

Quote: "Funny, because I've done it with yours"

-There's your problem. You've just said what you do to scripture.

Quote: "As far as I'm concered,,,there has been no back and forth.
There has been YOU posting scripture that you do not quite understand....
and me explaining it to you"

- Sounds like a back and forth.
You're a contrarian. You hear something and just oppose it.

Really, be blessed and not so condemning of others, God will call whom He pleases and we thank Him for it.

BTW,,,,WHEN did I condemn you?
Could you please give the post number?

It would be appreciated.
I can't remember condemning you.

 

[ATG]

They talk an awful lot about works for people who believe faith alone saves. I'm not really sure they know what alone means.

Certainly faith-alone people can speak freely of works, when the faith-alone sin license is clarified. Sin-licensing only applies to the natural body and life on earth, not to the immortal souls having faith-alone. Faith-alone only shields the believer from spiritual eternal consequence, not from natural reaping of the body in this life.

The body and life in this world is still naturally affected by how we live, but has no affect on the eternally preserved faith-alone soul. Even as faith-alone does stand apart from works, so also must the soul stand apart from judgment of works.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

No one's natural body and life on earth is immune to God's temporal judgment of works. It's only the soul that is shielded by faith-alone, that now escapes God's eternal judgment of works.

Gal 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man is sowing, that shall he also reap. For he that is sowing to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sowing to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting…For there is no respect of persons with God.

Once again, the first part of natural reaping to the flesh applies to all people. But the second part of spiritual reaping to the soul only applies to unbelievers, not to any person having faith-alone in Christ. God has no respect of natural bodies and lives in reaping what we sow, but He certainly must have respect for the spirit and souls of the believers. How else can salvation and justification be eternally secured by faith-alone in Christ??

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And also here, the law of sin and death for the soul, that has applied to every man and woman that sins, no longer applies to any person having faith-alone in Christ. Because the faith-alone new man is no longer the old man of the body. The spirit and soul of the new man is now separated by faith-alone from the body of the old man. While the old body still does bad things on earth, the new man only has a mind for the Spirit through faith-alone.

Since the faith-alone soul is no more committing the acts of sin and trespass, but only that old man of the body does the bad deeds. Likewise once again, only the natural body can reap corruption and death. How else can the new man sitting eternally secured in heavenly places, of the believer also reaps corruption and death for the sins of the body on earth??

Once again, even as the person is counted as righteous by faith-alone, so the soul cannot be counted as doing unrighteous deeds. Even as the old natural body is counted as unrighteous, so also only that body is counted as doing those deeds. The heavenly faith-alone shield of the soul separates the believer from the body of works on earth.

And so, we see how the sin-license of faith-alone only applies to the old natural body, not to the new spirit and soul. The shield of faith-alone only applies to the soul not being judged by works, but only the old sinful body, that has no faith-alone in itself.

Therefore, While the body and life can be ruined by ungodly manners on earth, the faith-alone spirit and soul of the new man in heveanly places must remain untouched by the deeds of the body. How else can the saved and justified souls of all believers alone be forever preserved blameless, while also committing bodily unrighteousness on earth?? That of course is not possible without the unconditionally grace-gifted faith-alone from the Christ, who only judges the natural bodies for unclean works, but does not judge the unconditionally secured souls of believers alone.

Only the other ungodly sinners of the world not having faith-alone in Christ, are the unrighteous who likewise sow to the flesh, but also still bodily and spiritually reap corruption and death. God does not have respect to the persons of unbelief, but only has respect to the persons with faith-alone.

 

[pinebeach]

You just got here pinebeach.

I always back up my statements with scripture.

Otherwise,,,,,I'm just posting my opinion.

Hang around and see.

Well that not a true statement. You have been here less than a year and seem to think you are the only one who posts scritpure which, you mistakenly believe, qualifies you to be right. all. the. time.

As far as when someone replies or comments on a thread, that is none of your business. Personally, I read posts before responding on a thread. You don't need to concern yourself with how or when I do that. Fine to respond to posts, but you are
trying to control the thread. It would be best for you to stick to the op rather than comment
on the practices of how people post.

Everyone says the same thing and most people post scripture. The various opinions on the same passages, such as you are doing, is common and all over this forum.

You are not even the op so chill

 

[Dino246]

Please show, using scripure, where the NT writers teach that FAITH ALONE is valid.

I just can't find this in the NT.

You might also want to define your understanding of faith alone because the definition might be the problem here.

Here is my understanding of FAITH ALONE.

We are saved ONLY BY FAITH.
Works cannot save a person...but only faith in God.

Once we become saved....
FAITH ALONE is no longer valid.

Agreed??

Galatians 2:15-16 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

So... what is so convoluted about that?

 

[Toknow]

Well that not a true statement. You have been here less than a year and seem to think you are the only one who posts scritpure which, you mistakenly believe, qualifies you to be right. all. the. time.

As far as when someone replies or comments on a thread, that is none of your business. Personally, I read posts before responding on a thread. You don't need to concern yourself with how or when I do that. Fine to respond to posts, but you are
trying to control the thread. It would be best for you to stick to the op rather than comment
on the practices of how people post.

Everyone says the same thing and most people post scripture. The various opinions on the same passages, such as you are doing, is common and all over this forum.

You are not even the op so chill

Thanks pinebeach.

I appreciate your kind, Christianly words.


And,,,just because I joined a year ago does not mean I stared posting a year ago.
I really just got here very recently.

I did notice that there's no scripture in your reply to me.

 

[Toknow]

Galatians 2:15-16 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law,

Notice that Galatians 2:15-16 is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW.

I believe you must surely know that The Law was aboiished 2 thousand years ago.
I've said this many times now and, I believe, even to YOU.

What you'd have to find is scripture that states that good works/deeds are NOT NECESSARY after we are initually saved.

but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Agreed 100%

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

Agreed 100%

So... what is so convoluted about that?

1. It's speaking about becoming saved.

Again: Every Christian I know believes we are saved by FAITH ALONE.

So surely we're discussing something ELSE which seem to elude some or they just do not want to accept what the NT teaches.


2. You have left out

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Paul is teaching that we are created to do good works.
And that we are to walk in them.

AFTER salvation FAITH ALONE no longer works.
Paul has added good works to our faith.

so
It is no longer FAITH ALONE.


FAITH ALONE IS FOR BEFORE SALVATION.
NOT AFTER SALVATION.

This is what M. Luther taught, and Jesus, and Paul, and all of the NT writers.

 

[Dino246]

Notice that Galatians 2:15-16 is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW.

I believe you must surely know that The Law was aboiished 2 thousand years ago.
I've said this many times now and, I believe, even to YOU.

You seem to enjoy pretending that you're teaching me something.

What you'd have to find is scripture that states that good works/deeds are NOT NECESSARY after we are initually saved.

Only if I claimed that good deeds/works are not necessary after we are initially saved. Where did I claim that? Please quote me.

2. You have left out

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I didn't leave anything out. I quoted exactly what I intended to quote.

so
It is no longer FAITH ALONE.

If something "is no longer" then it once was.

 

[ATG]

You asked for one single example of when Christ says someone is saved by faith alone.

Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

I do not preach faith alone rather by grace through faith we are saved.

Correct. Still looking for one single example of when Christ says someone is saved by faith alone.

What we are seeing is an ideology so ingrained into some people's hearts and minds, that they no longer can see that their ideology is only preached by themselves.

Such as when anyone speaks of faith, the faith-alone ideologue assumes it must be of faith alone. Not faith.

The only example any man can ever read of, is only from the faith-alone preachers, not from any apostle of Jesus Christ. Except of course from James, who declares that faith without works is dead, being alone. That is one single example of when Christ speaks of faith alone. That it cannot save any man.

James{2:14}
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The only single way for anyone to give an example of Christ speaking of faith alone that saves, is by the faith-alone ideologue adding it to the Scriptures.

Deu 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

We see here, that those who add or take away from God's words, inevitably do so in order to take away from doing God's commandments. Hence it's no coincidence, that some people add their faith-alone to Scripture, so that they may not keep the commandments of the LORD your God, in order to be justified by their faith-alone.

Our salvation is dependent on Christ's forgiveness, kindness, and unconditional love.

Once again, give one single example of when Christ says unconditional love.

Remember this time around, we're only looking from what His Scriptures say, not what an ideologue may impute and add to His words...

 

[Dino246]

Still looking for one single example of when Christ says someone is saved by faith alone.

Remember this time around, we're only looking from what His Scriptures say, not what an ideologue may impute and add to His words...

Post 553, just up the page.

 

[ATG]

You are wrong whether it is proven to you or not.

Famous last non-answer of faith-alone. It's right whether proven by Scripture or not.

Mat 21:27
And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Mat 21:27
And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell.

 

[Standard]

Standard.....
Here's how Forums work:

I make a statement.
I back it up with scripture.

You don't agree.
You must show with scripture why you do not agree.

AND
you must also show why the scripture I POSTED is wrong, in your view.
This requires explaing why you don't agree.

Most "explain away" verses using paragrapsh of their own opinion.
this is what I mean by explain away.

But, of course, you are not required to engage in any of my scriptural assertations.
But just stating that you don't agree is not very useful either.

The word of God isn't explained away, which you said that you do in post 490. I accept the scriptures you post and also the others you want to explain away.
This word salad you have just posted is meaningless, as will be all your posts while you still believe you can explain away God's word....