Paul - ignore his teachings?

[GandalfTheWhite]

And here I thought I was in a bad mood yesterday. Yikes.

 

[Elin]

And here I thought I was in a bad mood yesterday. Yikes.

Messianic Judaism is not Christianity, it is Judaism simply with the addition of Jesus, but not believing the whole NT word of God.

It is another gospel, the very "gospel" which Paul preached against and suffered at the hands of,
for the sake of the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

And 2,000 years later that anathematized "gospel" is still being trotted out.

Peter said some wrestle and distort Paul's writings, as they do the other Scriptures (writings)
to their own destruction (2Pe 3:16).

After 2,000 years Judaizers still have not seen the light, and still oppose Paul.
With good reason did Paul call them false brothers.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Messianic Judaism is not Christianity, it is Judaism simply with the addition of Jesus, but not believing the whole NT word of God.

This, I believe, is a gross misconception may Christians hold. A Messianic Jew is, in fact, a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ. They most assuredly are Christians.

Yes, they maintain their identity as Jews. But no, no, no, no, no! They do not follow the Law, they do not add Jesus to the Law, and they believe their faith in the God of Israel as been completed in Christ as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, The New Covenant.

Yes, they continue to celebrate the feasts and festivals prescribed under the Law, but they do so in a manner that demonstrates how Christ has fulfilled the meaning of each of the Holy Days.

Many on here won't like reading this, but Messianic Judaism was the original church. Jesus Himself was an observant Jew, as were the apostles and writers of the books of the New Testament. The vast majority of the first believers in Christ were Jewish. If anyone doubts that, they should reread Acts chapter two.

Messianic Jews follow Yeshua the Messiah -- Jesus Christ. They understand that everything given the Jewish nation in the Old Covenant is a mere shadow”of the better things to come under the New Covenant given by Jesus.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

After 2,000 years Judaizers still have not seen the light, and still oppose Paul.
With good reason did Paul call them false brothers.

And Peter also warned us against the degree of difficulty in Paul's teachings

 

[phil112]

All scripture is from God, but Paul does state sometimes that what he just said was from him and not from God- therefore such statements are Paul's advise to us and not God's law. It is the same as if I copied scripture into a book, but added a side note from me- that side note is from me and is not scripture, and just like Paul did, I would state it was from me.

I take it you are referring to the following passage.

1 Corinthians 7:6 "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment."

Tell me, Kaycie, who's permission do you think he had?

To present that as you, and so many others, do implies that Paul had something that wasn't approved by God and/or Christ. Ludicrous!

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I take it you are referring to the following passage.




Tell me, Kaycie, who's permission do you think he had?

To present that as you, and so many others, do implies that Paul had something that wasn't approved by God and/or Christ. Ludicrous!

Yes sir, people are following Paul blindly and ignore the teachings of Yeshua. If we start with Yeshua we will see that Paul was in line with every word in the Bible (even the OT).

 

[michael56]

And Peter also warned us against the degree of difficulty in Paul's teachings

Impossible to understand unless you are guided by the Holy Spirit to understand.
Although Paul was a hugely intelligent man, he warned about the scholar, theologian and those who believed they were wise by the standards of this world. Flee all such reliance, as Paul did-it's the only way!

 

[JaumeJ]

When the Holy Spirit entereed into me, the words of the Bible lept out into my heart. A Bible came to me opened to th eBook o fIsaiah, I began to read, and all I could do was repeat, this is true, this is true. I had this same reaction reading the Gospels and all of the Old Testament, but when it came to reading the Epistles it became more of an academic task. I read Paul, and I learn from Paul what he has to say to the varied congregations, assemblies, but the rest of the Word always has the greater impact on my heart, soul and mind. This is quite likely due to the presence of Jesus Christ from Genesis throught and including th eGospels and Revelation. The Epistles seem to dwell more on assembly problems, squabbles, clarification of groups of people on tangents and more.

The Holy Spirit leads all who hav received Jesus Christ. Paul directs us all to Jesus Christ, the Cross, and the Gosple given us all. He is the first to tell the assemblies that once saved, we belong to Jesus Christ, and it is only th Gosple of Jesus Christ we should follow, for there is no other. This being the case, it is safe to say following Jesus Christ, the Master is the most certain way, truth and life, for these are Jesus Christ. If you read and claim to understand Paul, then do as he reaches. One Gospel, one Savior, One Cross..........

 

[Elin]

This, I believe, is a gross misconception may Christians hold. A Messianic Jew is, in fact, a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ. They most assuredly are Christians.

Are you saying they are NT Christians whose faith in Christ Jesus has its basis in the whole NT?

 

[Elin]

And Peter also warned us against the degree of difficulty in Paul's teachings

Peter "warned us against" no such thing.

He warned us against wrestling and distorting the Scriptures to our own destruction as some did with Paul's writings, and are still doing today.

 

[Elin]

Yes sir, people are following Paul blindly and ignore the teachings of Yeshua. If we start with Yeshua we will see that Paul was in line with every word in the Bible (even the OT).

Since Paul got all his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, you can start with either Paul or Jesus, there is no difference between them, in the light of the two covenants involved.

 

[royalscot]

I desire that people would stop building doctrine off of their misunderstandings of Paul.
It is so crazy that people throw out the whole Bible and teachings of Christ.
If anyone thinks that Paul contradicts Jesus whatsoever it is because you do not understand him whatsoever.
Please seek out the things which you think are contradictory and study for yourself until you have reconciled him to Christ.

It is not that hard with the Spirit of truth but it does require you to seek past your presuppositions and learn a bit about the terms Paul used when he spoke. My heart goes out to all of you who have been led astray and work so hard to diminish and obscure the teachings of our Lord in favor of your doctrinal poison.


I am going to share some of the final words of our Lord, His last instructions to us the church.
They speak for themselves to anyone willing to listen. There is no mention of anything being easy or everyone being covered or no need to worry about living in sin and disobedience. Calling Jesus "Lord" will not save us if we do not abide in Him and live according to His truth. Surely this is the same Lord as the one in the Gospels, not some pushover who welcomes sin with open arms... Sinners yes, but then they must leave that sin at the door or they do not gain entry.
Our Lord is still Holy, even after He was resurrected. The things He taught while He was alive are still good and perfect and true as they came from the Father.

To the Church in Ephesus
“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.

2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’


To the Church in Smyrna
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander[a] of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’


To the Church in Pergamum
12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’


To the Church in Thyatira
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants[c] to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


To the Church in Sardis
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


To the Church in Philadelphia
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.

8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’


To the Church in Laodicea
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

these churches are in turkey. and are mostly in muslim areas in a modern world.

 

[michael56]

When the Holy Spirit entereed into me, the words of the Bible lept out into my heart. A Bible came to me opened to th eBook o fIsaiah, I began to read, and all I could do was repeat, this is true, this is true. I had this same reaction reading the Gospels and all of the Old Testament, but when it came to reading the Epistles it became more of an academic task.

The heart is deceitful, and the imagination can imagine much, but the words of Jesus are unshakeable. And according to Christ, what was stated before the Epistles could be understood without the indwelling prescence of the Holy Spirit as experienced at Pentecost. What
followed the Gospels requires a person to be led of the Holy Spirit to understand.

If a persons heart says ''this is true, this is true'' to what precedes the Epistles, but does not say the same to what follows the Gospels, I would take Jesus words as to the probable reason why that is so, not the fallible mind of man.

 

[royalscot]

The heart is deceitful, and the imagination can imagine much, but the words of Jesus are unshakeable. And according to Christ, what was stated before the Epistles could be understood without the indwelling prescence of the Holy Spirit as experienced at Pentecost. What
followed the Gospels requires a person to be led of the Holy Spirit to understand.

If a persons heart says ''this is true, this is true'' to what precedes the Epistles, but does not say the same to what follows the Gospels, I would take Jesus words as to the probable reason why that is so, not the fallible mind of man.

all were jewish at pentecost. acts 10 Cornelius is a gentile.

act 15 happened about 18 year after pentecost.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.Acts 10

 

[michael56]

all were jewish at pentecost. acts 10 Cornelius is a gentile.

act 15 happened about 18 year after pentecost.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.Acts 10

I don't see how the above is relevant to my post you responded to

 

[royalscot]

I don't see how the above is relevant to my post you responded to

two different ministries.
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)Galatians 2

 

[michael56]

two different ministries.
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)Galatians 2

My post was in response to someone stating what was written before the Epistles brought great conviction to them, it was all true, but they did not feel the same as they read the Epistles. That has no bearing on Jew or Gentile if one claims to be a Christian. Rather in my view more to do with the fact Jesus stated he was limited in what he could teach the disciles for the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them

 

[Elin]

When the Holy Spirit entereed into me, the words of the Bible lept out into my heart. A Bible came to me opened to th eBook o fIsaiah, I began to read, and all I could do was repeat, this is true, this is true. I had this same reaction reading the Gospels and all of the Old Testament, but when it came to reading the Epistles it became more of an academic task. I read Paul, and I learn from Paul what he has to say to the varied congregations, assemblies, but the rest of the Word always has the greater impact on my heart, soul and mind. This is quite likely due to the presence of Jesus Christ from Genesis throught and including th eGospels and Revelation. The Epistles seem to dwell more on assembly problems, the squabbles, clarification of groups of people on tangents and more.

Only when the nature of salvation by grace through faith, and not by works, is an "assembly problem". .

Only when salvation from the wrath of God on the guilt of sin is an "assembly problem". . .

Only when justification (rightwise standing before God) in Christ Jesus is an "assembly problem". . .

Only when transformation into the likeness of Christ is an "assembly problem". . .

Only when God's foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification are an "assembly problem". . .

Only when election is an "assembly problem". . .

Only when the one body of Christ in which all the born again are one, both Jew and Gentile, is an "assembly problem". . .

Etc., etc., etc. . . . .

Your view reveals a lot about your understanding of NT Christianity.

 

[royalscot]

My post was in response to someone stating what was written before the Epistles brought great conviction to them, it was all true, but they did not feel the same as they read the Epistles. That has no bearing on Jew or Gentile if one claims to be a Christian. Rather in my view more to do with the fact Jesus stated he was limited in what he could teach the disciles for the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them

yes there is they have a different relationship to law.

2 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.Romans 11

 

[michael56]

yes there is they have a different relationship to law.

2 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.Romans 11

I know of Jews who accept Paul's writings with as much conviction as they accept the rest of the Bible. And I know of Gentiles who are less comfortable with Paul's writings than they are the rest of the bible. The key is the Holy Spirit leading into truth, not whether you are Jew or Gentile