Pre-Trib Rapture=Mark of the beast (for some), Naiveness=Sleep and unpreparedness

[hhhlga89]

I am afraid that most Christians will receive the mark of the beast, because they believe in the rapture. (And look, I know that some of you will say "once we are saved we are always saved," and "if you receive the mark, it proves you were never saved," but you have no clue whether or not you will persevere.) Here is my point, if you believe you will be raptured before the mark of the beast is issued, you may assume that the mark of the beast really isn't the mark of the beast, and therefore receive it.
.............

I am concerned for the many Christians in America who desperately want to believe that they are the chosen few who don't have to suffer persecution (by the way, THAT IS NO PRIZE!!). Everywhere in the world people are being killed in these end times for the name of Jesus, yet for them, God will rapture. "Oh how much more special we are compared to the rest of the Christians in the world, (that God would let them suffer in the end times, but right before it’s are turn to be killed for Him, He will snatch us up, we are His darling people, not the scum)" I imagine is what they here in America say. Many (if not all) Christians in America believe in the doctrine of total depravity yet are SO naive when it comes to the idea their own nation could become more wicked than it already is and turn on them. (I take it they never read about Israel in the Old Testament). This idea that the government is run by angels is causing us to sleep while we should be working. No one is preaching for us not to receive the mark of the beast, no one is preaching to beware of false Christ’s, no one is planning how they will gather together when they are no longer able to meet in their local churches, etc., etc., etc. Am I saying we are in this moment right now? No, of course not, but I do believe it's not far off. Honestly, I would be shocked if we weren't being persecuted in America within the next ten year, but that is just me. Please, read your bibles and get ready for the coming tribulation. God bless.

 

[jonathanbchristian]

I believe in post tribulation rapture so I see what you are saying. I believe thousands of Christians will be hurt that they are not raptured including the Bible college I attended. I know it means alot to them and I just heard the leader of our denomination preach that we should not worry because we will be raptured pre trib. They will most likely be terrified when they face the tribulation. The Lord has given me prophecies about the tribulation and they are post trib prophecies. I spend alot of time thinking about it.

 

[hhhlga89]

Yeah, me too recently..Its easier to endure something when you know it is coming. Pre Trib Christians will be so shocked and caught off guard that, I'm afraid, some might pass away.

Luke 21:9 - And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.

You will not take heed of God's admonishions to not be terrified if you think this will never apply to you.

v.26 - people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

If someone were to say I'm going to creep up behind you and scream, when they did it I wouldn't be too afraid, at all. But if someone where to do it without me knowing or believing what they told me, I would probably be terrified. The same applies to those who not listening to Jesus saying "hey guys, I'm am going to do all this, but don't be afraid, ok." I am paraphrasing of course.

Matthew 7:26 - "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

[Avinu]

When the tribulation starts and the pre-tribbers are still here, they'll be looking for those of us who told them it was a lie. They'll be coming to us saying "I don't get it, what happened?" And they will be seeking for us to help them. which we will because that's what Yeshua would want. But it's going to be a really depressing day for them.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I'm just gonna throw in why I do NOT believe in the pre trib rapture theory.

“But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming” (Matthew 24:37-42, NKJV).

When this passage is referring to Noah and what happened being "taken away" means death...NOT a rapture to where the saved go to Heaven and the unsaved are here to live. It means the death of sinners. What happened to those who were not in the ark? They died. Same thing with the Second Coming.

Im my understanding this will all happen at once. Jesus will come. The saved with be with him. The lost will not be with him, and the Earth is POOF!

 

[Red33]

When the tribulation starts and the pre-tribbers are still here, they'll be looking for those of us who told them it was a lie. They'll be coming to us saying "I don't get it, what happened?" And they will be seeking for us to help them. which we will because that's what Yeshua would want. But it's going to be a really depressing day for them.

It is not becoming for a Jewish man to flatter himself in such a manner, especially one that is erred in his conviction about the appearing of our Saviour in the clouds of the air to gather His church unto Himself before that great tribulation coming upon the earth, when the nation of Israel will be dealt with and not the church. Perhaps our Lord is using the ascension (rapture) and the catching away of His church (His brethren of saints) to separate the wheat from the darnel of the crowd of professing Christians that have not the Spirit nor have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, our Saviour.

Remember, even if you believe the illustration concerning the time of Noah pertains only to the post-trib rapture, you can't deny that Noah and those sealed in the ark (a covenant of promise by faith) were lifted up (or ascended) above the waters of judgment and did not return until the judgment assuaged and had passed. At that appointed time the ark descended and rested upon the mountains and man began a new dispensation without the law. There a few applications that we can derive from that. Selah

 

[hhhlga89]

It is not becoming for a Jewish man to flatter himself in such a manner, especially one that is erred in his conviction about the appearing of our Saviour in the clouds of the air to gather His church unto Himself before that great tribulation coming upon the earth, when the nation of Israel will be dealt with and not the church. Perhaps our Lord is using the ascension (rapture) and the catching away of His church (His brethren of saints) to separate the wheat from the darnel of the crowd of professing Christians that have not the Spirit nor have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, our Saviour.

Remember, even if you believe the illustration concerning the time of Noah pertains only to the post-trib rapture, you can't deny that Noah and those sealed in the ark (a covenant of promise by faith) were lifted up (or ascended) above the waters of judgment and did not return until the judgment assuaged and had passed. At that appointed time the ark descended and rested upon the mountains and man began a new dispensation without the law. There a few applications that we can derive from that. Selah

Wow, the "darnel of the crowd of professing Christians"'??? Lol, your truly an idolatrous doctrine worshiper. Are you actually saying that not believing in the rapture makes someone not saved? Then you don't understand the gospel and I should be the one who has doubts concerning you. He separates the wheat and tears at harvest time.

The parable of the wheat and tears actually refutes your erroneous thinking:

v. 28 - He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’

That angel is analogous to a pre trib believer who says you want us to cause a rapture (gather) them up?

v.29 - But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

No, do not gather the Christians up before you deal with the Non-Christians.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

The harvest is the 2nd coming where he will do all at the same time. It is important for us to read our bibles rather than to draw speculations due to our lack of a desire to suffer for Christ.

And what would you have wanted God to do to Noah, bring the ark into heaven? This event has only to do with the judgment of the wicked and salvation of the righteous, and baptism. You are overspiritualizing the text and its causing you to err.

 

[peterT]

When the tribulation starts and the pre-tribbers are still here, they'll be looking for those of us who told them it was a lie. They'll be coming to us saying "I don't get it, what happened?" And they will be seeking for us to help them. which we will because that's what Yeshua would want. But it's going to be a really depressing day for them.

Yes I think so. That reminds me of this verse.

Daniel 11:34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall CLEAVE to them with flatteries.

The weaker Christian well come to us for help when the tribulation starts.

But the stronger pre-tribulation believing Christian will just have a change of heart, for he is like Tomas he will have to see before he believes.

 

[Katy-follower]

Rev 13:7: “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them”

Matthew 16:18: “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”


How do you explain this one then? Satan has the power to overcome (kill) the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 but yet Jesus Christ said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That right there suggests that the saints mentioned in Revelations are not us “the church” so it can only be those left behind who received Christ during this final period after the church had been taken out and as a result of hearing the two witnesses.


(I've posted other scriptures in the past supporting my thoughts, but won't include them all here)

 

[Red33]

Rev 13:7: “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them”

Matthew 16:18: “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”


How do you explain this one then? Satan has the power to overcome (kill) the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 but yet Jesus Christ said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That right there suggests that the saints mentioned in Revelations are not us “the church” so it can only be those left behind who received Christ during this final period after the church had been taken out and as a result of hearing the two witnesses.


(I've posted other scriptures in the past supporting my thoughts, but won't include them all here)

Those are excellent points.

 

[peterT]

Rev 13:7: “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them”

Matthew 16:18: “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”


How do you explain this one then? Satan has the power to overcome (kill) the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 but yet Jesus Christ said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That right there suggests that the saints mentioned in Revelations are not us “the church” so it can only be those left behind who received Christ during this final period after the church had been taken out and as a result of hearing the two witnesses.


(I've posted other scriptures in the past supporting my thoughts, but won't include them all here)

He can’t prevail agents are faith and are work for the lord, but like the early church and the disciples that died as martyrs and so will some of us.

1 Thessalonians 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Katy-follower]

He can’t prevail agents are faith and are work for the lord, but like the early church and the disciples that died as martyrs and so will some of us.

1 Thessalonians 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Sorry but I don't agree. This is the finale and the last days are actually likened to the days of Noah anyway (Matthew 24:37) - where him and family were kept safe from the flood and the others washed away. Just this time we will be taken away and the others left.

"The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church" which does suggest no prevailing in many ways, not just the one in particular that I mentioned.

We do not earn our salvation by dying. Otherwise, why did Christ die? You may not take this frame of mind, but it does suggest this. He died so we would not have to. Why would this change in the last days? (Note - those left behind have to die)

I believe the deaths of the disciples at that time were very crucial. Their deaths became a great witness to the whole world because it proved that they had the truth and were willing to die for it, so in their deaths they preserved the truth to this day. No one can challenge these martyred men. I think God wanted it that way. They were his disciples. The truth needed to be preserved.

I'm not saying we won't go through some of the tribulation, just that Satan will not overcome the church. It's the final battle and the bride will not be battered, bruised and put to death.

Remember, we are going through persecutions in the world today, while the unsaved continue in their lives, persecuting us (because they live in darkness). The disciples were subjected to physical persecution while we are currently suffering a different kind of persecution as a result of trying to live Godly lives in this broken world.

I stick by my earlier post, that the saints referred to in Rev 13:7 are those who will be saved during the tribulation. This is why there are two witnesses, not the whole church army there.

Just my thoughts anyway. I did post a ton of scriptures in the past regarding this very topic. I know we won't agree, so won't go into it anymore.

 

[hhhlga89]

Rev 13:7: “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them”

Matthew 16:18: “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”


How do you explain this one then? Satan has the power to overcome (kill) the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 but yet Jesus Christ said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That right there suggests that the saints mentioned in Revelations are not us “the church” so it can only be those left behind who received Christ during this final period after the church had been taken out and as a result of hearing the two witnesses.


(I've posted other scriptures in the past supporting my thoughts, but won't include them all here)

I think the best way for you to realize that the rapture is false is to look at the bigger picture, you are only thinking about America, but for countless others around the world they are suffering for Christ right now. Are you somehow exempt, but not they? I'm just reiterating my first post.

Saints are saints. Saints cannot be sinners, saints can only be those cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ, those who have received Christ's imputed righteousness - the Church. He overcomes them in the context of war, he will do that then and he is doing that now, Satan wars against the church. The theif comes only to kill, steal, and destroy.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

He would not be telling these christians to be alert if Satan could not devour them. So the notion that him "overcoming" them is the same as prevailing against the Church is false.

What Christ means when He says "and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," he means nothing Satan can ever do can destroy Christianity. He can kill a million Christians, but be sure of this, Christianity will still be their the next day. Have you ever heard of the saying "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church"? Whatever Satan does, cannot kill the Church, in fact it only makes it purer.

Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Daneil 4:3 - How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion endures from generation to generation.

 

[peterT]

Sorry but I don't agree. This is the finale and the last days are actually likened to the days of Noah anyway (Matthew 24:37) - where him and family were kept safe from the flood and the others washed away. Just this time we will be taken away and the others left.

".

It’s funny that you mention the days of Noah from Matt24.

If you take a closer look it is talking about after the tribulation.

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And it will be like the days of Noah and THEY were eating and drinking.

Matthew 24:38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Its talking about after the tribulation, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Katy-follower]

By the way, I just bought this book --> Amazon.com: The End Times (9780884690771): Herman A. Hoyt: Books

Looks good so far, worth looking at.

 

[Red33]

It’s funny that you mention the days of Noah from Matt24.

If you take a closer look it is talking about after the tribulation.

Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And it will be like the days of Noah and THEY were eating and drinking.

Matthew 24:38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Its talking about after the tribulation, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

You do not discriminate between the catching away or rapture of those in Christ and the second coming of Christ as separate events. One is for calling the church to come up hither (the last trump or voice for the church) and the other has nothing to do with the calling up of the church who are in Christ. The church is one body of God's election of both Jew and Gentile in Christ, who are saints and there is another body of believers redeemed by the blood of the Lamb during the time of the tribulation that are God's elect but have nothing to do with the church. What God does during the time of the tribulation deals with Israel and those affected by that dealing and the church is not responsible for or involved in any of it. None of the things that happen during that time can be accredited to the church and body of Christ. It does not exist in the OT prophecy or in any of the revelation given to Christ, Paul, Peter or John in the NT. For the church to exist during that time it has to be added and by doing that you are putting the church where it does not belong dispensationally. The dispensation of the law has been done away with and so will the dispensation of the church have it's ending.

 

[Avinu]

Rev 13:7: “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them”

Matthew 16:18: “and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”


How do you explain this one then? Satan has the power to overcome (kill) the saints mentioned in Revelation 13:7 but yet Jesus Christ said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That right there suggests that the saints mentioned in Revelations are not us “the church” so it can only be those left behind who received Christ during this final period after the church had been taken out and as a result of hearing the two witnesses.


(I've posted other scriptures in the past supporting my thoughts, but won't include them all here)

• Like

Shalom Katy, how did you like that teaching?

Matt. 16:18 is purely talking about the fact that hell will not be victorious in destroying the church. That's it. Because Yeshua knew all the thing the devil would do to tear it apart. This verse has nothing to do with a catching away. When you study YHVH's word from front to back, it is not His practice to take anyone out of any kind of tribulation. Noah and family never left the earth. Israel was right in the middle of the plagues being unleashed on Egypt. Most people think that the whole tribulation is about YHVH's wrath and that's not true and scripture says so. First Rev.12:12. Then at the end of the tribulation when the 7 bowl and 7 trumpet judgements start, that will be YHVH's wrath upon the wicked. Then Psalm 91:7-8 kicks in,
"A thousand will fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come nigh you, for you will observe and see the punishment of the wicked."
It has never been YHVH's practice to rapture His people out of anything, He's not going to do it now. We are those saints that will be killed by anti-christ for our testimony of Yeshua. And those who aren't killed will get to see the glorious return of Yeshua in the sky.
It is not us who need to fear, but those who refuse to receive Messiah, for they will be damned forever.

 

[Red33]

Shalom Katy, how did you like that teaching?

Matt. 16:18 is purely talking about the fact that hell will not be victorious in destroying the church. That's it. Because Yeshua knew all the thing the devil would do to tear it apart. This verse has nothing to do with a catching away. When you study YHVH's word from front to back, it is not His practice to take anyone out of any kind of tribulation. Noah and family never left the earth. Israel was right in the middle of the plagues being unleashed on Egypt. Most people think that the whole tribulation is about YHVH's wrath and that's not true and scripture says so. First Rev.12:12. Then at the end of the tribulation when the 7 bowl and 7 trumpet judgements start, that will be YHVH's wrath upon the wicked. Then Psalm 91:7-8 kicks in,
"A thousand will fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come nigh you, for you will observe and see the punishment of the wicked."
It has never been YHVH's practice to rapture His people out of anything, He's not going to do it now. We are those saints that will be killed by anti-christ for our testimony of Yeshua. And those who aren't killed will get to see the glorious return of Yeshua in the sky.
It is not us who need to fear, but those who refuse to receive Messiah, for they will be damned forever.

The wrath of God is part of the great tribulation coming upon the earth against the children of disobedience. The wrath of Satan will come against Israel and those washed by the blood of the Lamb during that time. But the church and body of Christ is not mentioned nor present during any of this. The two prophets that come are for Israel's sake and for God to have allowed Noah and the eight souls to be judged with the others or to have caught them up to heaven, God would have had to start again and we would have never known the redemption that is in Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth and all that dwell upon the earth. Noah and the eight were not delivered in the judgment of the water but was raised above it without any tribulation and none of them were judged that were sealed in the ark. There were none outside the ark that were saved and all perished in their own corruption.

 

[loveme1]

Do not fear anything that will come to pass, for if Almighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah are your foundation, what can come against you?


Be strong and Glorify Almighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah.


Let no man tell you different to what you were taught by the Holy spirit, hold fast and remember those that seek to save their life lose it.

Remember we are going into eternal life, this is all for but a short time..

We are nothing on our own.. our strength is given, be obedient and stay faithful until the end.

 

[peterT]

You do not discriminate between the catching away or rapture of those in Christ and the second coming of Christ as separate events. One is for calling the church to come up hither (the last trump or voice for the church) and the other has nothing to do with the calling up of the church who are in Christ. The church is one body of God's election of both Jew and Gentile in Christ, who are saints and there is another body of believers redeemed by the blood of the Lamb during the time of the tribulation that are God's elect but have nothing to do with the church. What God does during the time of the tribulation deals with Israel and those affected by that dealing and the church is not responsible for or involved in any of it. None of the things that happen during that time can be accredited to the church and body of Christ. It does not exist in the OT prophecy or in any of the revelation given to Christ, Paul, Peter or John in the NT. For the church to exist during that time it has to be added and by doing that you are putting the church where it does not belong dispensationally. The dispensation of the law has been done away with and so will the dispensation of the church have it's ending.

O ye of little faith.

Are you making circumcision something, when it is Nothing

1 corinthians 7:19 CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING

Romans Chapter 2 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 2:11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;