Pre-Trib Rapture=Mark of the beast (for some), Naiveness=Sleep and unpreparedness

[Brucenorm]

/ Just saw this unusual web piece and would like to share it and get reactions. Lord bless. /

THE MOODY ERWIN LUTZER

by G. W. Rockwell

Pastor Erwin Lutzer at the famous Moody Church in Chicago is an outstanding preacher. But he can be moody at times - rapture moody.
Take July 29, 2012 for example. His "Moody Church Hour" sermon that day on "Philadelphia" (one of Revelation's seven churches) included the following:
"It is His coming, the rapture, that would keep the church from the hour of trial [a.k.a. the great tribulation] that is coming upon the whole earth. And isn't it interesting? He does not say 'I will keep you through the hour of trial but rather I will keep you out of - that's what the text [Rev. 3:10] says - I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.
"There is of course a disagreement as to whether or not we will go through the tribulation, or whether or not we will be raptured ahead of time, and we don't know all the details until it happens. But wouldn't it be wonderful if when we are going up in the sky we could look at all of those posttribbers and say with a smile 'I told you it was so'? Wouldn't that be wonderful to be able to do that?"
The congregation immediately applauded.
Note that Lutzer twice used the word "wonderful" when asking his audience how wonderful it would be to use spiteful pride against the only "rapture" view found in all theology books and organized churches before the year 1830: the posttribulation view!
On the "Moody Church Hour" web site the same day (July 29) Lutzer wrote that "great benefit was derived from John Stott's book WHAT CHRIST THINKS OF THE CHURCH when these messages [on Revelation's seven churches] were prepared."
Incredibly, the Stott that Lutzer leaned on disagrees completely with Lutzer. The same Stott book, p. 104, says this: "He would not spare them from the suffering [Rev. 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it."
It would be wonderful if Erwin Lutzer would visit Google and type in "Famous Rapture Watchers" and "Famous Rapture Watchers (Addendum)." Not only would he spot the very same Stott quote, but in the same summaries he would also discover that all of the greatest Greek New Testament scholars of all time have uniformly viewed Rev. 3:10 (the most important "proof text" for pretribbers) as teaching "preservation through" and not "escaping beforehand"! ("Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" is another informative Google article.)
One wonders what will have to happen to change the Moody pastor's mood.

 

[onoma]

Wow, the "darnel of the crowd of professing Christians"'??? Lol, your truly an idolatrous doctrine worshiper. Are you actually saying that not believing in the rapture makes someone not saved? Then you don't understand the gospel and I should be the one who has doubts concerning you. He separates the wheat and tears at harvest time.

The parable of the wheat and tears actually refutes your erroneous thinking:

v. 28 - He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’

That angel is analogous to a pre trib believer who says you want us to cause a rapture (gather) them up?

v.29 - But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

No, do not gather the Christians up before you deal with the Non-Christians.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

The harvest is the 2nd coming where he will do all at the same time. It is important for us to read our bibles rather than to draw speculations due to our lack of a desire to suffer for Christ.

And what would you have wanted God to do to Noah, bring the ark into heaven? This event has only to do with the judgment of the wicked and salvation of the righteous, and baptism. You are overspiritualizing the text and its causing you to err.

Matt. 13:24-50 The subject here is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, notice the following verses, 24, 31, 33, 38, 41, 44, 45, 47. Here in verse 25, we have tares in a wheat field, not wheat in a field of tares as we have today. How do we explain verse 27?. From the time this statement was made until now, we have been living in a field of tares. Paul in 11 Cor. 4:4 tells us the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. In the parable of THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN
above we have the devil sowing the tares. In the Millenum Satan or the devil will be in the bottomless pit. Rev. 20:1-3. The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN above ends with the coming of the Lord, notice again verses 36-43 above. The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN above begins before the coming of the Lord, and the thousand year millennium begins after the coming of the Lord. There is a lot more to this but i will not go into it at this time.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

I don't believe in pre-trib rapture simply because it circumvents the promise that we will be persecuted for His name sake. I'd rather be shot in the head or a-bombed because of my faith than get a free ride out. What an honor it would be to follow Him all the way to the end.

 

[edward99]

Matt. 13:24-50 The subject here is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, notice the following verses, 24, 31, 33, 38, 41, 44, 45, 47. Here in verse 25, we have tares in a wheat field, not wheat in a field of tares as we have today. How do we explain verse 27?. From the time this statement was made until now, we have been living in a field of tares. Paul in 11 Cor. 4:4 tells us the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. In the parable of THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN
above we have the devil sowing the tares. In the Millenum Satan or the devil will be in the bottomless pit. Rev. 20:1-3. The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN above ends with the coming of the Lord, notice again verses 36-43 above. The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN above begins before the coming of the Lord, and the thousand year millennium begins after the coming of the Lord. There is a lot more to this but i will not go into it at this time.

Matthew 13:30
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Matthew 13
The Tares Explained

36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.


There's no "thousand year millennium" after this.
Just the end of the world and eternal life.

 

[Katy-follower]

I don't believe in pre-trib rapture simply because it circumvents the promise that we will be persecuted for His name sake

We're being persecuted now because we are God's faithful Philadelphia church. We are trying to live Godly lives among the unrepentant that live in the world.

The 7 year tribulation will be a last call to repentance for those who have not accepted Christ. The tribulation will be for those who were never saved.

I believe there will be many people left behind who thought they were Christians but they were never really saved... so a lot of churches left behind.

If the rapture does not happen then we are all going to die. They have guillotines prepared. I don't believe we are animals being led to be slaughtered. Christ is not going to return for His battered and bruised (well, dead) bride.

 

[moment_of_faith]

I believe in pre- trib . I believe it is enough evidence in the bible to support it, but let’s discuss your thought pre-trib people taking the mark of the beast. The bible tells us not to be afraid because all things most come to pass. The bible warns us of the Anti-Christ and False Prophet. The bible tells us we will have to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead. The bible tells us Angels will be flying in air telling us if we take the mark we will drink mixed in full strength the wrath of the lord. The two witnesses will be on earth, the 144,000 preaching the coming kingdom.
So I believe true Christian will be OK ..

 

[peterT]

Sorry but I don't agree. This is the finale and the last days are actually likened to the days of Noah anyway (Matthew 24:37) - where him and family were kept safe from the flood and the others washed away. Just this time we will be taken away and the others left.

".

Yes it will be like the days of Noah one shall be taken and the other left Immediately after the tribulation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus comes before the great tribulation.

The pre-trib theory is a delusion; it’s just smoke and mirrors, designed by the devil to keep God’s children unprepared.

The pre-tribulation prophets have gathered a hand full of Bible verses together and bound them together with words of the flesh, and fear, to make it sound like Jesus is coming before the tribulation.

BUT nowhere in the Bible are we gathered together before the great tribulation.

We are going to be tried and tested just like everybody else in the Bible.

Some will be killed for their faith and some will live to the end when jesus comes in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4:16 --and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[moment_of_faith]

so if we all meet him in the air or go to hell who is here for the 1000 year kingdom???

 

[starfield]

It's interesting how 1 Thessalonians 4 from verse 1 to 15 did not make mention of the Great Tribulation happening before "the Lord himself descending from heaven" in verse 16.
From 1 Thessalonians 4:1-15, Paul encourages the church of the Thessalonians that they should continue in their walk with God and shouldn't be sorrowful because of those who have died in Christ (this also applies to believers nowadays).
From verse 16, the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the shout of the archangel. The dead in Christ will rise first then those that are alive and remained in the faith will rise. This is the rapture.

Then Paul continues on in 1 Thessalonians 5.
Verse2- For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Paul says that the day of the Lord, which is the rapture, will be like a thief coming unannounced.
Verses 3-4- For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Destruction (now he mentions the Great Tribulation) will come to upon those in darkness, those that are still under the captivity of the devil, those that missed the rapture because they thought they were saved but were never truly saved. But that day of destruction will overtake those who are not in darkness. Why will it overtake them? Because they are of the children of light, they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and are walking daily with Him verse 5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" .
Verse 6- Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. We should be watchful just like the five wise virgins.
Verse 7- For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Verse 8-9-But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, . Let those who hope to be raptured (those of that day) be watchful and prayerful, put on the breastplate of faith and love, and hope of salvation because God has not appointed the believers wrath (the Great Tribulation) but salvation, deliverance (rapture to meet with the Lord).

So 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is about the rapture of the saints not the Second coming of the Lord.

 

[peterT]

so if we all meet him in the air or go to hell who is here for the 1000 year kingdom???

Rv19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[peterT]

It's interesting how 1 Thessalonians 4 from verse 1 to 15 did not make mention of the Great Tribulation happening before ".

No, it doesn’t mention directly the great tribulation, but it does mention the trumpet and the clouds and the dead and the living meeting the lord in the air just like Matt24. And that’s Immediately after the tribulation.

It also doesn’t mention a pre-tribe coming


1 Thessalonians Chapter 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

1Cor 15::51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Maybe you should look up the last trumpet in the book of Revelation and see what happens before that last trumpet sounds.

 

[moment_of_faith]

Again if all believers are to meet the lord in the clouds and all unbelievers go to hell then who is on earth for the 1000 kingdom?

That last trumpet in revelation is a judgment. Jesus gathering up his people is not judgment. He is removing them from harm’s way.

 

[peterT]

Again if all believers are to meet the lord in the clouds and all unbelievers go to hell then who is on earth for the 1000 kingdom?

The people who don’t take the mark of the beast and survive the wrath of god.

He is removing them from harm’s way.

removes who out of harm’s way and were does it say that exactly ?

That last trumpet in revelation is a judgment. Jesus gathering up his people is not judgment. He is removing them from harm’s way.

And as for the last trumpet in revelation.

Well there is a lot of coincidences.


It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds.

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet.

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first.



It just happens that the two end time prophets in Rv11 are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet

Rv10 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What coincidences from the word can you show that it happens before the great tribulation ?

 

[peterT]

That last trumpet in revelation is a judgment. Jesus gathering up his people is not judgment. He is removing them from harm’s way.

Yes judgments, judgments on the Pharaoh and on Egypt but never touched the children of God, if they obey like the children of Israel did in there day and put blood on there door .

If we obey the voice of the lord he will keep us safe from the plagues as he did with the children of Israel

 

[moment_of_faith]

The people who don’t take the mark of the beast and survive the wrath of god.

Then who goes up to meet the lord in the clouds ??

 

[simplyme_bekah]

My question is what are the bible verses that talk about the end of times?

 

[moment_of_faith]

simplyme_bekah -- Someone is going to mee the lord Jesus Christ in the clouds. Who are these people ??

 

[simplyme_bekah]

Another question....has anyone else started to think that its a good idea to get their body in shape? I do not know what is coming with our country. I just live with a boy scout who has the skills to insure our survival how ever long we have to run and hide if it came to that. I think that if you are a child of God you can feel that the time draws close to when our Lord comes back to collect those that belong to him. Anyone else blown away that we are even starting to see it at the grocery store in the rags about it being the end of times? I think we just may be the luckiest human beings alive to be able to witness everything that is going to happen.

 

[simplyme_bekah]

simplyme_bekah -- Someone is going to mee the lord Jesus Christ in the clouds. Who are these people ??

They are the children of God. They are the ones that have asked him to come into their hearts as their personal savior and believe it with every fiber of their being. When they come to know Jesus as their personal savior their souls dance to life for the first time ever because he reveals himself to them within their souls, hearts, minds, and life. These are the blessed children the protected children of God.

 

[moment_of_faith]

Who are these people ?? When does this happen?