Pre-Trib Rapture=Mark of the beast (for some), Naiveness=Sleep and unpreparedness

[simplyme_bekah]

Who are these people ?? When does this happen?

These are the children of God (the ones that believe in him and ask him to come into their heart as their personal savior) It happens on Gods time. In other words no one knows the exact moment except for God.

 

[OFM]

These are the children of God (the ones that believe in him and ask him to come into their heart as their personal savior) It happens on Gods time. In other words no one knows the exact moment except for God.

i totally fully agree with ou on this-eth.Only Our Heavenly Father Knows,the Date and Time no person on earth will know its not 4 us 2 know just as,Bible Believing Christians is 2 bee Spiritually Ready all 24 hours of each and every day in each all and every spiritual christian ways allways....amen....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't believe in pre-trib rapture simply because it circumvents the promise that we will be persecuted for His name sake. I'd rather be shot in the head or a-bombed because of my faith than get a free ride out. What an honor it would be to follow Him all the way to the end.

Not saying I do believe in it. But God did say we will be persecuted, but we will be spared from the TIME of Gods wrath, which is supposedly this time frame.

 

[edward99]

If the rapture does not happen then we are all going to die. They have guillotines prepared. I don't believe we are animals being led to be slaughtered. Christ is not going to return for His battered and bruised (well, dead) bride.

Who do you think the guillotines are for, Katy?

 

[moment_of_faith]

Well Jesus did say youwill have your heads cut off.

Let me see if I can ask the question a little different. Those who make it through the tribulations some go into the 1000 year kingdom others don't. So who, where, when, do those meet Jesus in the clouds? Because someone meets him in the clouds

 

[simplyme_bekah]

Well Jesus did say youwill have your heads cut off.

Let me see if I can ask the question a little different. Those who make it through the tribulations some go into the 1000 year kingdom others don't. So who, where, when, do those meet Jesus in the clouds? Because someone meets him in the clouds

who: God's children
where: in the clouds
when: only God knows

 

[moment_of_faith]

What I'm saying the ones who make it through tribulation don't meet the lord in the clouds. They either go to hell or go in to the 1000 year kingdom. So who, when, where do some meet him in the clouds?

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

When I read the Bible I only see 2 advents being mentioned. I think you have to really read into the text to see some kind of middle "secret" advent or rapture. Maybe there will be a pre-trib rapture but I have serious doubts

How many people would believe in the pre-trib rapture if they had not been taught by someone that there was going to be one? I would venture to say that no one would. That doesnt automatically make it wrong but it should raise a red flag.

This verse is speaking of the first and second advent.

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice that Jesus closes the book before he reaches the "and the day of vengeance" part. The reason he does this is because that is the second advent. I dont see any room for a secret rapture.

Luke 4:17-21 (KJV)
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

[moment_of_faith]

Well it is in chapter 4 of revelation when he says come up here. John sees the church in heaven. Then the church is not mentioned again in the book of revelation until chapter 19 I believe. Then it is also in the Gospel of John Chapter 11: 25 Jesus told her, &#8220;I am the resurrection and the life.[e] Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying.</SPAN> 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?&#8221;

Of course
1 Corinthians 15 :51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[j] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
1 Thessalonians 4 :16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[h] will rise from their graves.</SPAN> 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
And I few more places

 

[peterT]

Then who goes up to meet the lord in the clouds ??

The elect, us Christians and the 144000 the people which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I'm saying the ones who make it through tribulation don't meet the lord in the clouds. They either go to hell or go in to the 1000 year kingdom. So who, when, where do some meet him in the clouds?

your correct. those who endure to the end are saved physically and enter the kingdom with him after he destroys all evil and all the nations arrayed against him in the great battle.

Yet that is when he returns (feet on ground)

so when would the "meet him the clouds" happen? before or after the 2nd coming of Christ?

 

[peterT]

Well it is in chapter 4 of revelation when he says come up here. John sees the church in heaven. Then the church is not mentioned again in the book of revelation until chapter 19 I believe.

Yes it is, For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The church is the body of believers, and the body of believers is all though the book of revelation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes it is, For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The church is the body of believers, and the body of believers is all though the book of revelation

Actually the book of revelations more speaks of the woman (isreal) than the church, Unbelieving Isreal is sent to hiding and protected, so the man of sin goes after her offspring (gentile believers who have been converted.) The 2 witnesses are from Isreal, the 144000 who are converted by angels are from Isreal. why did the church not convert them if they were around?

 

[peterT]

Actually the book of revelations more speaks of the woman (isreal) than the church, Unbelieving Isreal is sent to hiding and protected, so the man of sin goes after her offspring (gentile believers who have been converted.) The 2 witnesses are from Isreal, the 144000 who are converted by angels are from Isreal. why did the church not convert them if they were around?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church


Revelation 15:2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The church.

And the 14400 the church
Revelation 14:1and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The church is the body of believers that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth,
and as I said the body of believers is all though the book of revelation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church

The woman is Isreal. Who gave birth to Christ. Christ gave birth to the church, The church did not give birth to Christ.

Revelation 15:2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The church.

Could be the church, Could just be believers who were saved AFTER the start of the tribulation period. Your making many assumptions here,

By the way, you do understand that the word "church" in the NT speaks of any gathering, the word is not even specific to Christians, but many secular organisation which meets in an assembly? even the assembly of Isreal in the OT would have been called an ekkl;esia?

And the 14400 the church

Revelation 14:1and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

12000 from each tribe of Isreal. This is Isreal. NOT THE CHURCH.

The church is the body of believers

that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth,

and as I said the body of believers is all though the book of revelation

They were all over the OT too, yet not called the church, but called the woman, or Isreal. Try separating the two.

Even if the church was raptured at the beginning or middle of the age, those saved after would still be called an ekklesia would they not? These are the ekklesia of the nation of Isreal, with a few beliving gentiles (the womans offspring) who are saved during this time. It does not prove at one time the body of Christ who were alive and on earth were not "taken up to meet Christ"

Try again??

 

[moment_of_faith]

The elect, us Christians and the 144000 the people which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

When does this occur? If it happens at the last trumpet in Revelation 11 that's basically 5 years in to the 7 year trib. The rider on the red horse doesn't go out until 3 1/2 year into the trib "MIDWAY" so the 7th trumpet in somewhere around 5 years. So why would he rapture then? If the Lord is going to remove believers why would he want to wait 5 years in? If he is going to remove his fellow believers then why wouldn't he do it at the beginning? If it doesn't happen at the beginning or at the last trumpet in Rev. 11 then it never happens. Because you have the 1000 year kingdom and he is not going to do it then. Then after the 1000 year kingdom you have the great white throne judgment and then the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth. So everyone that was in heaven will be back on earth. No need to rapture then.

Also it was pointed out if the church was still here then you wouldn't need the two witnesses or the 144,000 jews preaching the coming 1000 year kingdom.

The church after Rev. 4 come up here is not mention again until Rev. 19;
7 Let us be glad and rejoice,
and let us give honor to him.
For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb,
and his bride has prepared herself.
8 She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear.&#8221;
For the fine linen represents the good deeds of God&#8217;s holy people.
9 And the angel said to me, &#8220;Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.&#8221; And he added, &#8220;These are true words that come from God.&#8221;

 

[hhhlga89]

Not saying I do believe in it. But God did say we will be persecuted, but we will be spared from the TIME of Gods wrath, which is supposedly this time frame.

If you never heard of the rapture though you would assume it was talking about the day of Judgement. Why can't we just agree that this passage is talking about the one thing ALL Christians believe in -the final judgement, and not invent something new -the rapture.

Well it is in chapter 4 of revelation when he says come up here. John sees the church in heaven. Then the church is not mentioned again in the book of revelation

Is that not just an assumption your making though? Is not that just conjecture on your part?

Actually the book of revelations more speaks of the woman (isreal) than the church, Unbelieving Isreal is sent to hiding and protected, so the man of sin goes after her offspring (gentile believers who have been converted.) The 2 witnesses are from Isreal, the 144000 who are converted by angels are from Isreal. why did the church not convert them if they were around?

Converted by angels? Where do you get this from, your own presuppositions?

You seem to be saying that the 144,000 are not the "church" because they are Jews. Are you saying that gentiles who believe on Christ are in a different group then Jews who believe on Christ??? This is the kind of thing Paul strictly preached against.

Ephesians 2:11-16 -
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

 

[moment_of_faith]

The church after &#8220;Rev. 4 come up here&#8221; is not mention again until Rev. 19 as the bride of Christ. That's the scripture I gave. Tribulation is the time of Jacob trouble and Jacob changed his name to Israel. It is also fulfilling the 7 X 70's that Daniel speaks of. It is 7 years still left on the clock. Israel will witness for Jesus. Jesus opens the 144,000 eyes for them to see he is GOD and the only name under heaven which man must be saved, but then it get good. You have the two witnesses who I believe are Moses and Elijah pointing out the anti-christ, and preaching the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the people can&#8217;t stand them. These men stop the rain for 3 ½ years and turn the water blood and anyway you try to kill them they will kill you. Then you have the angels flying in air. Can you imagine that and on top of it many will still not believe nor repent.

 

[Katy-follower]

Who do you think the guillotines are for, Katy?

Terrorists - those who are against the beastly system. Christians, "Christians," protesters, etc, are considered terrorists.

But - if the rapture happens as I think, there will be many "Christians" (those who were deceived and never saved) left behind - how many of them will refuse the dark system? There will also be a dark religion enforced on people by the false prophet. How many regular people will be saved during the tribulation and then refuse the mark?

As I said in earlier post, we are the faithful Philadelphia church. Those who dwell upon the earth are those who are settled in the world as unbelievers (Rev 3:10). We are not of this world but the unbelievers are.

Here is a good write-up on it. Would be good to see others thoughts on these website points.

Link --> Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?, Part 1

Link --> Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?, Part 2

Link --> Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?, Part 3

 

[moment_of_faith]

The bible tells us a number so great will be saved during tribulations that they can't be counted.