Question for OSAS believers...

[Elin]

Yes He will, but does that mean our free will has been taken away to chose an accept that chastening or not.
I know plenty who take the chastising, and then turn around and do the same bad things again. This shows the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, as in those who deny His guidance and help to lead them down the proper path.....
I have met plenty who believe in OSAS, and think because of that they can live and do whatever they want.

But that is not the meaning of the eternal security of salvation.

So you are using a false representation (straw man) to shoot it down.

You should be shooting down the misunderstanding of the eternal security of salvation,
not trying to shoot down the Biblical teaching itself.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not getting angry I am getting discouraged at the disregard of who God is. We could take snippets from the Bible to make just about anything want to believe true. Regarding this topic have a look at a couple passages of Scripture on the attributes of God. (Sorry I apologize for not writing them out but I am using my phone so just read them). Mal 3:6, Ex 3:14, James 1:17, Is 40:6-8, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Is 65:24, Mat 6:8, 1Cor 3:20, 1 John 3:20, Is 46:10, Dan 4:35, Eph 1:11, Ps 135:6, Is 45:9.

2 Tim 2:19 I will quote "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His."

Amen to this as well for sure.........!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I don't think you answered my question.

Matthew 7:21-23 is a picture of standing in front of judgment.
Rather they received the Holy Spirit or not, it does not say, however the point that scripture does make is that once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior you can not walk and do whatever you want. You have to continue to walk on the proper path, and the Holy Spirit is our helper and guide to do that. With that being said though, He is a helper, and not a controller......We are not made into like puppets on a string.
Example: Whenever I have a thought arise that is not proper, I hear the Holy Spirit telling me to put it off and not give into it. From there can I listen or not to that guidance? Yes I can, and as a person with love for Christ I listen..........

 

[Kaycie]

I am not getting angry I am getting discouraged at the disregard of who God is. We could take snippets from the Bible to make just about anything want to believe true. Regarding this topic have a look at a couple passages of Scripture on the attributes of God. (Sorry I apologize for not writing them out but I am using my phone so just read them). Mal 3:6, Ex 3:14, James 1:17, Is 40:6-8, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Is 65:24, Mat 6:8, 1Cor 3:20, 1 John 3:20, Is 46:10, Dan 4:35, Eph 1:11, Ps 135:6, Is 45:9.

2 Tim 2:19 I will quote "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His."

How is a bidding by God's words disregarding Him? Snippets? My thread was packed full of scriptures that spoke specifically about this subject, people even complained it was too long. I have to go right now, but I plan to come back later and reply to every scripture you gave me to consider, out of respect for you. Peace.

 

[kennethcadwell]

But that is not the meaning of the eternal security of salvation.

So you are using a false representation (straw man) to shoot it down.

You should be shooting down the misunderstanding of the eternal security of salvation,
not trying to shoot down the Biblical teaching itself.

No it is not a false pretense as these all believe they are saved, and there are plenty out there who believe they are saved and their actions mean and account for nothing. However Jesus mentions those types a couple of times in the gospels, and tells them I never knew you and are sent to eternal punishment. Like Matthew 25 for instance, as both groups believe in the Lord. Only one gets eternal life and the other gets eternal punishment. Why ???
It is because of their unloving attitudes toward others; as Jesus tells because you did not do for them, you did not do for Me.....

 

[Elin]

“The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

The sow washing itself is symbolism for a Christian who has been cleansed of their past sins, and then after receiving that cleansing return to walking in their sins again..........

Well, actually, I don't think it is a symbol for a Christian, but for counterfeit faith.

In both cases, the nature of the animal has not changed, the are not new creatures,
as are the born again, but still the same old creatures.

They returned to their corruption because it was not dealt with
through regeneration into a new creature.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well, actually, I don't think it is a symbol for a Christian, but for counterfeit faith.

In both cases, the nature of the animal has not changed, the are not new creatures,
as are the born again, but still the same old creatures.

They returned to their corruption because it was not dealt with through regeneration.

How does one receive remission (cleansing of their sins) if their faith was counterfeit to begin with ???
They had to have faith in Him to begin with to receive it, but then they turned away from it to go back to their sins. Just like the Galatians who were once under God's saving grace, and then turned away from it to go back to being justified by the law. Paul tells them they have fallen from that grace.

 

[Elin]

Did those in Mt 7:21-23 share in the Holy Spirit?

See this.

Matthew 7:21-23 is a picture of standing in front of judgment.
Rather they received the Holy Spirit or not, it does not say,

It does say they partook of the Holy Spirit in v. 22, but that is not proof of salvation,
just as it is not proof of salvation in Heb 4:4.

 

[Elin]

But that is not the meaning of the eternal security of salvation.

So you are using a false representation (straw man) of it to shoot it down.

You should be shooting down the misunderstanding (false representation) of the eternal security of salvation,
not trying to shoot down the Biblical teaching itself.

No it is not a false pretense as these all believe they are saved, and there are plenty out there who believe they are saved and their actions mean and account for nothing.

A false pretense regarding what one actually believes and a false representation (or misunderstanding)
of a doctrine are not the same thing.

 

[kennethcadwell]

It does say they partook of the Holy Spirit in v. 22, but that is not proof of salvation,
just as it is not proof of salvation in Heb 4:4.

Where does it say in verse 22 they received the Holy Spirit ???

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They are just saying that everything they did was in His name, or in other words doing like this;
" Demon I cast you out in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "

This is not saying they were doing things the Holy Spirit was guiding them to do, and then it finishes it off in verse 23 with saying they continued also living life in sin/s. Therefore their good deeds was for naught !!!

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate

 

[kennethcadwell]

A false pretense regarding what one actually believes and a false representation (or misunderstanding)
of a doctrine are not the same thing.

Tell that to them, and not to me, because I know plenty who think that way.
They believe they are saved, and actions (works) mean nothing. They misuse or are misunderstanding the different scriptures about works, and end up blurring together spiritual works with self-righteous works.....

 

[elf3]

How many here are so assured of their salvation through Jesus Christ that they can say with Paul, Moses and I...that I would be willing to sacrifice my salvation so someone else might know the glory of God?

 

[Elin]

Well, actually, I don't think it is a symbol for a Christian, but for counterfeit faith.

In both cases, the nature of the animal has not changed, the are not new creatures,
as are the born again, but still the same old creatures.

They returned to their corruption because it was not dealt with through regeneration.

How does one receive remission (cleansing of their sins) if their faith was counterfeit to begin with ???

They don't.

The dog and pig are not symbols of born-again Christians who have received remission of their sins,
because the dog and pig were not made new creatures,
but the born again who receive remission are made new creatures.

The dog and pig remained the same old creatures, while the born again becomes a new creature,
transformed (metamorphoo)--like the caterpillar into a butterfly,
and a butterfly cannot become a caterpillar again.

 

[elf3]

Because I know our God is Sovereign I would be willing to sacrifice my salvation for any one of you.

 

[kennethcadwell]

They don't.

The dog and pig are not symbols of born-again Christians who have received remission of their sins,
because the dog and pig were not made new creatures,
but the born again who receive remission are made new creatures.

The dog and pig remained the same old creatures, while the born again becomes a new creature,
transformed (metamorphoo)--like the caterpillar into a butterfly,
and a butterfly cannot become a caterpillar again.

It says they were washed, or as in cleansed of their filth.
In a believers case, when you are washed and cleansed of your filth, it is referring to sins. It is a parallel between the two, and in the case of the sow (believer) that received this cleansing. Then took it for granted and returned to going back to willful sin. Example of a person who does not show a true repentance, as their actions show no proof of turning away from their sins.....

 

[Elin]

It does say they partook of the Holy Spirit in v. 22,

Where does it say in verse 22 they received the Holy Spirit ???

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

It is blue bolded above.

"Wonderful works" in the NT sense are not just good deeds, they are miraculous works.

They are just saying that everything they did was in His name, or in other words doing like this;
" Demon I cast you out in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "

This is not saying they were doing things the Holy Spirit was guiding them to do, and then it finishes it off in verse 23 with saying they continued also living life in sin/s.
Therefore their good deeds was for naught !!!

So did they, or did not not do the "good deed" of prophysying and casting out demons?

 

[Elin]

A false pretense regarding what one actually believes and
and a false representation (or misunderstanding)of a doctrine
are not the same thing.

Tell that to them, and not to me, because I know plenty who think that way.
They believe they are saved, and actions (works) mean nothing. They misuse or are misunderstanding the different scriptures about works, and end up blurring together spiritual works with self-righteous works.....

It's not about their understanding,
it's about your understanding the difference between a "false pretense" and a "false representation."

 

[Elin]

The dog and pig are not symbols of born-again Christians who have received remission of their sins,
because the dog and pig were not made new creatures,
but the born again who receive remission are made new creatures.

The dog and pig remained the same old creatures, while the born again becomes a new creature,
transformed (metamorphoo)--like the caterpillar into a butterfly,
and a butterfly cannot become a caterpillar again.

It says they were washed, or as in cleansed of their filth.

Yes, but they didn't become new creatures, so they are not symbols of born-again Christians
who do become new creatures.

They are not a parallel, because washing produced a new creature in one case, but it did not
produce a new creature in the other case.

 

[kennethcadwell]

It's not about their understanding,
it's about your understanding the difference between a "false pretense" and a "false representation."

No it is not my misunderstanding.
Sorry but I have been to some of these OSAS churches, and some do teach somewhat properly, but some of the others have taught that one is saved and can go live however they want. Do you remember the big wake up call to the churches back in the late 80's ???
A bunch of pastors got together and made a public address to all the churches to wake up because this was a growing and dangerous trend that a lot of churches had gone to back then, and I still see some remnant of it today in a few churches.

 

[Blain]

God's truth never "boils down" to what "we" think.

try telling that to all the ppl who love heated debates say mean things twist scripture to fit their view and refuse to listen to reason. gods truth is in the scriptures however our views only make us see what we think in them.