rapture cordial 'only' discussion

[GRACE_ambassador]

post-trib vs pre-trib

From our previous discussion:

I would like to discuss this
with you in your customary polite way. Perhaps you could give the first 5 of
your about 100 and see where we get.

Precious friend, appreciate your Very Kind words.

I think we should begin with a foundation first [ rule 1 BSR ], and see if we
agree, or if there is going to be a problem, ok? After all, without the Correct
foundation, the "building will crumble," eh? ie:

God Has Two Different programs:​

God's earthly Prophecy / Covenants / Law Program, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation) Timeframe?:

Scripture # 1:

"Then shall the King say unto them on His Right Hand, Come, ye blessed​

of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation​

of the world" (Matthew 25:34)​

​

Scripture # 2:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and Redeemed His​

people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of His​

servant David; As He Spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have​

been since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70)​

​

Scripture # 3:

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all​

things, which God Hath Spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets​

since the world began." (Acts 3:21)​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!) Another Timeframe?:

Scripture # 4:

"According as He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation​

of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before​

Him In Love" (Ephesians 1:4)​

Scripture # 5:

"Who Hath Saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not​

according to our works, but According To His Own Purpose and​

Grace, Which Was Given us In Christ Jesus before the world began"​

(2 Timothy 1:9)​

​

Please pardon The [ Extra ] Scriptures For The Body Of Christ, to
Complete 'the Important point' of This Solid Foundation!:

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”​

(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9)​

​

-------------------------------------------------

Thus, God Has Two Different programs For Two Different 'groups',
with TWO different 'Timeframes', Ending in Different destinations!

Precious friend, @Evmur, what think ye?

to be continued?...

 

[Jepethiel]

post-trib vs pre-trib

From our previous discussion:

Precious friend, appreciate your Very Kind words.

I think we should begin with a foundation first [ rule 1 BSR ], and see if we
agree, or if there is going to be a problem, ok? After all, without the Correct
foundation, the "building will crumble," eh? ie:

God Has Two Different programs:​

God's earthly Prophecy / Covenants / Law Program, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation) Timeframe?:

Scripture # 1:

"Then shall the King say unto them on His Right Hand, Come, ye blessed​

of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation​

of the world" (Matthew 25:34)​

​

Scripture # 2:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and Redeemed His​

people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of His​

servant David; As He Spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have​

been since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70)​

​

Scripture # 3:

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all​

things, which God Hath Spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets​

since the world began." (Acts 3:21)​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” }

 

[Evmur]

post-trib vs pre-trib

From our previous discussion:

Precious friend, appreciate your Very Kind words.

I think we should begin with a foundation first [ rule 1 BSR ], and see if we
agree, or if there is going to be a problem, ok? After all, without the Correct
foundation, the "building will crumble," eh? ie:

God Has Two Different programs:​

God's earthly Prophecy / Covenants / Law Program, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation) Timeframe?:

Scripture # 1:

"Then shall the King say unto them on His Right Hand, Come, ye blessed​

of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation​

of the world" (Matthew 25:34)​

​

Scripture # 2:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and Redeemed His​

people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of His​

servant David; As He Spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have​

been since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70)​

​

Scripture # 3:

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all​

things, which God Hath Spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets​

since the world began." (Acts 3:21)​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!) Another Timeframe?:

Scripture # 4:

"According as He Hath Chosen us In Him before the foundation​

of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before​

Him In Love" (Ephesians 1:4)​

Scripture # 5:

"Who Hath Saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not​

according to our works, but According To His Own Purpose and​

Grace, Which Was Given us In Christ Jesus before the world began"​

(2 Timothy 1:9)​

​

Please pardon The [ Extra ] Scriptures For The Body Of Christ, to
Complete 'the Important point' of This Solid Foundation!:

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”​

(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9)​

​

-------------------------------------------------

Thus, God Has Two Different programs For Two Different 'groups',
with TWO different 'Timeframes', Ending in Different destinations!

Precious friend, @Evmur, what think ye?

to be continued?...

I certainly agree that God is working on 2 programs, I differ slightly from the MAD position in that I believe the Jews who are saved in this age are saved now, we join them in their covenant. Salvation the same for Jew and Greek. I differ from everyone [so far as I can tell] in believing that the Jews who reign with Christ on earth in the 1, 000 years are ethnic Israel, the nation that now is and will more be at the revelation of Christ.

The church Jew/Gentile are the heavenly crowd.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I differ from everyone [so far as I can tell] in believing that the Jews who reign with Christ on earth in the 1, 000 years are ethnic Israel, the nation that now is and will more be at the revelation of Christ

Actually those who reign with Christ are neither identified with Jews nor Gentiles. And while Rev 20 speaks of the resurrected Tribulation saints reigning with Christ, other passages also include the whole Church (Rev 5:9,10): And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[JaumeJ]

It seems we are grafted into the Original Vine, in Jesus Yeshua that is. We refers to all who believe the Messiah no matter what this age has dubbed them by title.

Israel may be translated as "ruling with God," which is first, Jesus Yeshua, and last all who comprise His Holy Body, for we are to be the New Israel eternal ruling with the Messiah. I do not say I understand this totally, as is so with so many teachings, but I do believe this.

 

[Omegatime]

#1 Sheep/Goat Judgement

Judgement takes place at end of the 7 year Tribulation
Nations means Gentiles
Resurrection/Rapture happened previously
Judgment to determine who enters the Kingdom with flesh and blood to repopulate the earth
Sheep and Goats were all unrighteous
Sheep rewarded for helping those fleeing the antichrist and are considered righteous
1/3 jews who survive the Tribulation will enter the Kingdom for 1000 years without judgement

 

[Evmur]

Actually those who reign with Christ are neither identified with Jews nor Gentiles. And while Rev 20 speaks of the resurrected Tribulation saints reigning with Christ, other passages also include the whole Church (Rev 5:9,10): And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

there is a heavenly reign [church] and an earthly reign the now converted Jews.

Heaven and earth will be united in that day

 

[Evmur]

#1 Sheep/Goat Judgement

Judgement takes place at end of the 7 year Tribulation
Nations means Gentiles
Resurrection/Rapture happened previously
Judgment to determine who enters the Kingdom with flesh and blood to repopulate the earth
Sheep and Goats were all unrighteous
Sheep rewarded for helping those fleeing the antichrist and are considered righteous
1/3 jews who survive the Tribulation will enter the Kingdom for 1000 years without judgement

... at the end of the 1, 000 years

There are not multiple last judgements, the sheep and goats and the Great White Throne are the same ... the second resurrection.

Antichrist was slain when Christ came to gather the church. He was slain in the temple by the brightness and appearing of our Lord and the breath of His nostrils.

No more Antichrist, no more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution. Just a 7 year mopping up operation.

Christ comes to reign.

 

[Evmur]

It seems we are grafted into the Original Vine, in Jesus Yeshua that is. We refers to all who believe the Messiah no matter what this age has dubbed them by title.

Israel may be translated as "ruling with God," which is first, Jesus Yeshua, and last all who comprise His Holy Body, for we are to be the New Israel eternal ruling with the Messiah. I do not say I understand this totally, as is so with so many teachings, but I do believe this.

Heavenly reign the church
earthly reign the newly converted Jews ... that is what they were promised.

 

[JaumeJ]

there is a heavenly reign [church] and an earthly reign the now converted Jews.

Heaven and earth will be united in that day

When I realize the Jew is short for Yahuda , or one who prases Yah, and Israel may be translated as reigning with God, what you have posted makes sense, thank you. However I do believe all who believe would be Jewsw reigning with Yah, fro every nation.

 

[Evmur]

When I realize the Jew is short for Yahuda , or one who prases Yah, and Israel may be translated as reigning with God, what you have posted makes sense, thank you. However I do believe all who believe would be Jewsw reigning with Yah, fro every nation.

the meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I certainly agree that God is working on 2 programs...

Thanks for your cordial reply. Would that be Concurrently? Or:

Simultaneously, with Both programs combined / homogenized into 1?

I differ slightly from the MAD position in that I believe the Jews who are saved in this age are saved now, we join them in their covenant.

Would not that be only ONE program ( as Many think ), continued today?:

Israel prominent:
God's earthly Prophecy / their Covenants / Law Program, (“ages” past/future)
(Gen-Joh; (Today ↑ ↑ adding Mystery of Rom-Phm To ↑ ↑ ); Heb-Rev)
faith PLUS works?

However, because:

Salvation the same for Jew and Greek

Agree, if you mean Today, Under Grace, According To The New program, "The
Revelation Of The Mystery," That God Instituted because Israel fell, and is not
prominent ( 'us joining up with them' ), "But Now," we are All Equal {heathen},
In God's Sight!:

"But The Scripture Hath Concluded all under sin, that The Promise By Faith ​

of Jesus Christ might be Given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:22)​

+

"For God Hath Concluded them all in unbelief, that ​

He might have Mercy Upon all." (Romans 11:32)​

"The Same Salvation" By "Grace Through faith"?

If so, then I Totally Agree!

----------------------------------

It has well been stated by K Sadler:

"...all is made clear when when we rightly divide the Word and recognize
that God Has TWO programs, one for the church, The Body Of Christ, with
a HEAVENLY HOPE, and one for the nation of Israel with an EARTHLY HOPE."
( ↑ pre-trib rapture ) . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .. . ( ↑ post-trib → ↓ rapture )

Precious friend, more cordial critique, or are you ( on topic ) ready for the
Next 6 Scriptures?

Be Blessed...

 

[Nehemiah6]

there is a heavenly reign [church] and an earthly reign the now converted Jews.

And yet that Scripture speaks of the Church reigning with Christ ON EARTH.

 

[Jepethiel]

Something went wrong with my reply to this posts it has vanished I to Limbo.

And for some reason I cannot access word document files as attachments in Android Go.

I have a document on the subject titled
'The Four Events of Apocalypse'.

Hopefully, RoboOp can find and retrieve the post.

Your servant in Christ,
Jepethiel.

 

[Jepethiel]

This has been scrambled!

 

[Evmur]

And yet that Scripture speaks of the Church reigning with Christ ON EARTH.

... His saints I believe

 

[Evmur]

Thanks for your cordial reply. Would that be Concurrently? Or:

Simultaneously, with Both programs combined / homogenized into 1?

Would not that be only ONE program ( as Many think ), continued today?:

Israel prominent:
God's earthly Prophecy / their Covenants / Law Program, (“ages” past/future)
(Gen-Joh; (Today ↑ ↑ adding Mystery of Rom-Phm To ↑ ↑ ); Heb-Rev)
faith PLUS works?

However, because:

Agree, if you mean Today, Under Grace, According To The New program, "The
Revelation Of The Mystery," That God Instituted because Israel fell, and is not
prominent ( 'us joining up with them' ), "But Now," we are All Equal {heathen},
In God's Sight!:

"But The Scripture Hath Concluded all under sin, that The Promise By Faith ​

of Jesus Christ might be Given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:22)​

+

"For God Hath Concluded them all in unbelief, that ​

He might have Mercy Upon all." (Romans 11:32)​

"The Same Salvation" By "Grace Through faith"?

If so, then I Totally Agree!

----------------------------------

It has well been stated by K Sadler:

"...all is made clear when when we rightly divide the Word and recognize
that God Has TWO programs, one for the church, The Body Of Christ, with
a HEAVENLY HOPE, and one for the nation of Israel with an EARTHLY HOPE."
( ↑ pre-trib rapture ) . . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. . .. .. . ( ↑ post-trib → ↓ rapture )

Precious friend, more cordial critique, or are you ( on topic ) ready for the
Next 6 Scriptures?

Be Blessed...

... but there are the Jews

There is the church which is neither Jew or Gentile but made up of both
there is the world or the nations
... and there are the Jews, the seed of Abraham to whom promises are made which differ from the promise made to the church.

You have yet to show the scripture which speak about a pre-tribulation rapture.

When the Lord comes we know that those who are in Christ are raised, the dead first. But the Jews are also raised ALL Jews, but not raptured, they are gathered from the four winds "where Lord? where the carrion is there the eagles will gather"

The carrion will be those armies which came up to Jerusalem with Antichrist who will be slain with Antichrist. The Jews will be 7 years burying them and clearing the carnage.

Dan 12.
At that time shall arise Michael the great prince who has charge of your people and there shall be a time of trouble such as has never been since there was a nation till that time.

But at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And those who be wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

We see then that Israel is to be delivered at the time of the great tribulation, Michael will fight and will prevail and the Jews are raised. The wise and foolish maidens together ... some will go into the millennium age to turn many to righteousness some will be cast out to everlasting shame.

for more reference we have Ezekiel's dry bones when he saw the glory of the Lord return to Zion the whole house of Israel were raised.

So with the Jews ... the church will be in heaven.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

... but there are the Jews

There is the church which is neither Jew or Gentile but made up of both
there is the world or the nations
... and there are the Jews, the seed of Abraham to whom promises are made which differ from the promise made to the church.

Precious friend, are you referring to These Scriptures?:

Three groups:

"Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles,​

nor to the church of God" (1Co 10:32)​

+
The Body Of Christ, where:

​

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there​

is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)​

+

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision,​

Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11)​

If so, then I agree.

So with the Jews ... the church will be in heaven.

Remains to be seen, coming in the next post(s) of 90 More Scriptures...

Amen.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

You have yet to show the scripture which speak about a pre-tribulation rapture.

Thanks for your patience; the foundation was first, now "decently and in
order" ( Rule 1 BSR ), we can move to the next step, in response to your
agreement with 2 programs, and my question:

Concurrently? Or:
Simultaneously, with Both programs combined / homogenized into 1?

When the Lord comes we know that those who are in Christ are raised, the dead first. But the Jews are also raised ALL Jews, but not raptured, they are gathered from the four winds

Seems to me your indirect answer would be "Simultaneously" indicating only
one Closing Event, eh?

With The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided ( Rule 2 BSR ), I believe it should be
"Concurrently" with 2 Different "Closing Events" ( Point 1 [ of 7 ] compared )
- ie:

Pre-Trib:
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery,
For The Body Of Christ!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven!

"And what is the exceeding greatness of His Power to us-ward​

who believe, according to the working of His Mighty Power,​

Which He Wrought In Christ, when He Raised Him from the​

dead, and Set Him At His Own Right Hand in the heavenly​

places,​

​

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,​

and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also​

in that which is to come:​

​

And Hath Put all things under his feet, and Gave Him To Be​

The Head over all things to The Church, Which Is His Body,​

The Fulness Of Him That Filleth all in all." (Ephesians 1:19-23)​

+

"And He Is The Head Of The Body, The Church" (Colossians 1:18a)​

+

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​

the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together​

with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall​

we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy, For the earthly nation Of Israel:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His Prophesied
Second Advent, The Son of man, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven!

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be​

darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars​

shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be​

shaken:​

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and​

then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the​

Son of man Coming in the clouds of heaven with Power and Great​

Glory. " (Matthew 24:29, 30)​

+

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that​

Sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and In Righteousness​

He Doth Judge and make war...And He Hath on His Vesture and on​

His Thigh A Name Written, KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords."​

(Revelation 19:11, 16)​

Amen.
-------------------------
Again, Precious friend, appreciate your patience and prayerful/careful
consideration:

6 more points, further Clarifying pre-trib - to be continued...

 

[Evmur]

Thanks for your patience; the foundation was first, now "decently and in
order" ( Rule 1 BSR ), we can move to the next step, in response to your
agreement with 2 programs, and my question:


Seems to me your indirect answer would be "Simultaneously" indicating only
one Closing Event, eh?

With The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided ( Rule 2 BSR ), I believe it should be
"Concurrently" with 2 Different "Closing Events" ( Point 1 [ of 7 ] compared )
- ie:

Pre-Trib:
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery,
For The Body Of Christ!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven!

"And what is the exceeding greatness of His Power to us-ward​

who believe, according to the working of His Mighty Power,​

Which He Wrought In Christ, when He Raised Him from the​

dead, and Set Him At His Own Right Hand in the heavenly​

places,​

​

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion,​

and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also​

in that which is to come:​

​

And Hath Put all things under his feet, and Gave Him To Be​

The Head over all things to The Church, Which Is His Body,​

The Fulness Of Him That Filleth all in all." (Ephesians 1:19-23)​

+

"And He Is The Head Of The Body, The Church" (Colossians 1:18a)​

+

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​

the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together​

with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall​

we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy, For the earthly nation Of Israel:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His Prophesied
Second Advent, The Son of man, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven!

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be​

darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars​

shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be​

shaken:​

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and​

then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the​

Son of man Coming in the clouds of heaven with Power and Great​

Glory. " (Matthew 24:29, 30)​

+

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that​

Sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and In Righteousness​

He Doth Judge and make war...And He Hath on His Vesture and on​

His Thigh A Name Written, KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords."​

(Revelation 19:11, 16)​

Amen.
-------------------------
Again, Precious friend, appreciate your patience and prayerful/careful
consideration:

6 more points, further Clarifying pre-trib - to be continued...

Thank you yes.

But you are showing a post trib position. "after the tribulation of those days ..."

No but [and I'm smiling] but it's YOU who are showing only one program

I must protest at the word "departure" but we will no doubt come to that.

Jesus takes His church, but something has happened in Israel, "they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son.... and God will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and supplication...
The whole nation will seek the Lord in prayer, the women seperate from the men. Israel as a nation is re-born.

It is they who reign with Christ 1, 000 years on earth. Heaven and earth will be united. That is the 2 programs.

The church has been pregnant these 2, 000 years, the tribulation is likened to childbirth pains by our Lord and by Paul and by Jeremiah. It is not the man who pains in childbirth it is the woman, Not Israel who after the flesh is God's firstborn but the spouse, the church.

There will be no rapture until Israel is born again.

regards