Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

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Thank you for the response. Very informative and will be useful as I'm about to turn my attention back to the book of revelation. Be blessed
There are those that think we go through the trib.
Then there are us pretribbers.
The bible teaches a pretrib rapture.
The evidence is irrefutable.
That is why my opponents revert to rabbit trails and personal insults.
In the pretrib rapture doctrine, it incorporates purpose and understanding of the 7 yr trib, the Jewish gathering, the wedding in heaven, the purpose of the rapture, and the bride/bridegroom dynamic.
If you don't care for any of that, and want to lean towards a postrib rapture, keep in mind that their doctrine never incorporates those components, and when challenged, have yet in my 40 years of debate, produced a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

Postribbers are tribulation centered.

Pretrib rapture doctrine is bride / bridegroom centered.

Ask one of them to interpret the 10 virgins parable, or Rev 14:14.

So simple, and vivid, and yet they reframe both of them.
 
Very good, S.

Regarding the placement of the rapture in the seven years of tribulation and judgment, here is a brief summary.

The Savior determines that it is time for his return. He is the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 as revealed in Rev. 19:11. He had previously gone forth conquering death (Rev. 5:6), and now he is going forth to conquer Lucifer and wickedness from the earth. That is, he is going to take dominion over the earth.

The first thing that Jesus does in taking dominion over the earth is to destroy Babylon, the economic system. This is a system whereby the people have personal profit by serving other gods. Babylon has dominated the earth since the time of Adam.
Under Jesus' coming economic system, as shown in Rev. 21, the saints serve the eternal God and their reward is eternal life. This transfer from Babylon to New Jerusalem is given in the fourth storyline that I call the fall of Babylon storyline as shown in the follow chiasmus:

a) Ch. 17, Babylon is judged and burned (Rev. 17:1, Rev. 17:16).

b) Ch. 18, The 3.5-year tribulation begins where fallen Babylon gives way to the rule of the wicked upon the earth (Rev. 18:2). In response to the wicked who have taken over the earth after the fall of Babylon comes the call of the Savior for his army to embark on an exodus (Rev. 18:4).

c) THE CHIASMUS CENTER,
Ch. 19, The saints of the exodus arrive at their destination, where they participate in the marriage (Rev. 19:1-8). It is here that the 144,000 (Rev. 7) become sealed as the Savior's army (Rev. 14:1), going forth to harvest the saints of God (Rev. 14:14-16) and destroy the beast and his false prophet in the winepress (Rev. 14:14-20, Rev. 19:19-21), ending the 3.5-year tribulation. After the victory over the beast (Rev. 15:2), the 3.5-year judgment begins (Rev. 11:3), where the Savior's army goes forth to judge the remaining population of the earth. This army is given prescribed guidelines whereby they are to judge (Rev. 16:2-7).

b) Ch. 20, And with the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:16), the 3.5-year judgment ends. It is here that the two witnesses, as well as the saints of God, are taken off the earth in a rapture (Rev. 11:11-12). And with the destruction of the wicked in Armageddon, and the saints being taken off the earth in a rapture, Satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3). Then comes the first resurrection proper (Rev. 20:4-6) during the thousand years, followed by the release of satan after the thousand years are over (Rev. 20:7-9). Satan is then cast into hell with the beast and false prophet, and then comes the judgment of the spiritually dead.

a) Ch. 21, New Jerusalem, having with the eternal economy of God, descends to the earth.

S, as you can see, there is an exodus, harvest, and rapture, in that order, as shown in the fall of Babylon storyline.
No, the Father decides when Jesus returns, so that is backwards.

And no, the white horse rider of rev 6 is the false christ.

No, Rev 19 is the second coming post wrath of Jesus and the saints in heaven.
No, the 144,000 are ethnic Jews seald right away at the start or near beginning of the 7 yr trib.
(Jacobs trouble)

you have misplaced and reframed everything in the book of Revelation.
What a horrible horrible job.
SMH
 
There are those that think we go through the trib.
Then there are us pretribbers.
The bible teaches a pretrib rapture.
The evidence is irrefutable.
That is why my opponents revert to rabbit trails and personal insults.
In the pretrib rapture doctrine, it incorporates purpose and understanding of the 7 yr trib, the Jewish gathering, the wedding in heaven, the purpose of the rapture, and the bride/bridegroom dynamic.
If you don't care for any of that, and want to lean towards a postrib rapture, keep in mind that their doctrine never incorporates those components, and when challenged, have yet in my 40 years of debate, produced a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

Postribbers are tribulation centered.

Pretrib rapture doctrine is bride / bridegroom centered.

Ask one of them to interpret the 10 virgins parable, or Rev 14:14.

So simple, and vivid, and yet they reframe both of them.

P1, I thought we had this resolved, but I guess not.
Let's go verse by verse over the parable of the Ten Virgins. Not all the verses at once. You begin with the first verse and I will write on the first verse, etc. You can start a new thread if you like.
 
No, the Father decides when Jesus returns, so that is backwards.

And no, the white horse rider of rev 6 is the false christ.

No, Rev 19 is the second coming post wrath of Jesus and the saints in heaven.
No, the 144,000 are ethnic Jews seald right away at the start or near beginning of the 7 yr trib.
(Jacobs trouble)

you have misplaced and reframed everything in the book of Revelation.
What a horrible horrible job.
SMH

Thank you, P1.

1) The Father and Son are one. And in Rev. 1:8, Jesus is God Almighty. So it is okay to say the Father, or the Son. I am okay saying the Father.
2) There are multiple interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Some are better than others. At times, I also read the white horse as Enoch. It depends on what I am looking at. I do not see the rider of the white horse as the false christ. But if you do, that is okay.
3) Same goes for Rev. 19 and the 144,000. It is okay to have other interpretations of these things.
4) I do not know what SMH is, please explain.
 
1) The Father and Son are one. And in Rev. 1:8, Jesus is God Almighty. So it is okay to say the Father, or the Son. I am okay saying the Father.

It says in verse 1:4 that the one being, and the one who was, and the one coming is the father, not Jesus. Verses 4 and 5 make a distinction between the father, the holy spirit and the son, Jesus, which makes it clear who is calling himself the Alpha and Omega, and the Almighty.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end, says the Lord God, the one being, and the one who was, and the one coming, the almighty. Revelation 1:8

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:4-5
 
It says in verse 1:4 that the one being, and the one who was, and the one coming is the father, not Jesus. Verses 4 and 5 make a distinction between the father, the holy spirit and the son, Jesus, which makes it clear who is calling himself the Alpha and Omega, and the Almighty.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end, says the Lord God, the one being, and the one who was, and the one coming, the almighty. Revelation 1:8

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:4-5

I am with you CRD. You have eagle eyes.
I was simplifying it for P1 who is still in elementary school.
 
Thank you, P1.

1) The Father and Son are one. And in Rev. 1:8, Jesus is God Almighty. So it is okay to say the Father, or the Son. I am okay saying the Father.
2) There are multiple interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Some are better than others. At times, I also read the white horse as Enoch. It depends on what I am looking at. I do not see the rider of the white horse as the false christ. But if you do, that is okay.
3) Same goes for Rev. 19 and the 144,000. It is okay to have other interpretations of these things.
4) I do not know what SMH is, please explain.
QUOTE
"The Father and Son are one. And in Rev. 1:8, Jesus is God Almighty. So it is okay to say the Father, or the Son. I am okay saying the Father."


Rev 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2;And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3;And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.


4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7;And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

In no way is Jesus and the Father the same person.
 
I am with you CRD. You have eagle eyes.
I was simplifying it for P1 who is still in elementary school.
More ignorant put downs.
I have to correct you on basic bible that you are ignorant of.
"Jesus and the Father are the same person."

You should have stepped into truth when you got saved.

Now you have to be spoon fed, and act like you are some authority .

Then you celebrate others ignorance and promote theirs also.
 
P1, I thought we had this resolved, but I guess not.
Let's go verse by verse over the parable of the Ten Virgins. Not all the verses at once. You begin with the first verse and I will write on the first verse, etc. You can start a new thread if you like.
It is a no brainer.
Almost impossible to miss.
Overly simple and vivid.

Take each component, name them, and then show me how it fits YOUR doctrine.

I have yet to see ANY postribber adhere to WHAT IT SAYS.
 
The "rapture" is at the resurrection and before the bowls of wrath are poured out. There is no scriptural basis for a sneaky pre-trib rapture. It was invented in the 1800s to make the heresy of dispensationaism work (also invented in the 1800s). I normally don't get involved in discussions on the rapture other than to make a comment now and then, so i really don't have a goto list of scripture that you're looking for.

However, if you have questions about it I'm sure things will come to my mind that I can help you with. One thing you need to ask yourself is why would God remove his people from the earth before his glorious and loud return that every eye will see when he prayed for the father not to do so.

I ask not that you take them out of the world, but that you guard them from the evil. John 17:15
Post one postrib rapture verse.
Might have to get sneaky with it.
Should be a lot of them, correct?
 
Could each person put a summary of their idea (post trib and pre trib)? I'm trying to learn and discern a lot here about revelation and where the "doctrines" have come from as you are both so sure of your word. I hope you have the time to do it among your other things and it would help a lot with my Bible study if you could.
Unfortunately the insulting and oneupmanship has rather got in the way and I don't think it's beneficial
You will never see me initiating insulting remarks.
You will see me push back against all the postribbers insulting remarks.

The reason they do that is because I make them go against the bible.


Ask them for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Then ask yourself how they can possibly believe a doctrine that is void of the Bibles teaching.
 
You have the wedding, you have the judgment, you have the end of the beast and the false prophet, you have the dragon locked up for a thousand years, you have the first resurrection, and you have the end of all living humanity that was not invited to the wedding. The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not written in the book of life.

What think you?
According to what Jesus taught in Matthew 22:1-14, everyone has been bidden or called to the wedding. Some would not come, others made light of it, and one man sought to enter in without the proper attire, which would be the righteousness of the saints.
 
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Post one postrib rapture verse.
Might have to get sneaky with it.
Should be a lot of them, correct?

First thing we have to do is dispense with is the term "rapture", which is found nowhere in the bible. That word just poisons the discussion. The correct term is "seize" which is what will happen to all living believers when the 7th trumpet sounds and the lord returns in great glory and loud commotion that every eye and ear on earth will see and hear. Nothing sneaky about it.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be seized (ἁρπάζω) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
 
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You will never see me initiating insulting remarks.
You will see me push back against all the postribbers insulting remarks.

The reason they do that is because I make them go against the bible.


Ask them for a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
Then ask yourself how they can possibly believe a doctrine that is void of the Bibles teaching.

P1, you are a lot of fun.

When the tribulation begins, and you are still hanging around on the earth, be of good cheer that you have another chance at it.
 
The "rapture" is at the resurrection and before the bowls of wrath are poured out. There is no scriptural basis for a sneaky pre-trib rapture. It was invented in the 1800s to make the heresy of dispensationaism work (also invented in the 1800s). I normally don't get involved in discussions on the rapture other than to make a comment now and then, so i really don't have a goto list of scripture that you're looking for.

However, if you have questions about it I'm sure things will come to my mind that I can help you with. One thing you need to ask yourself is why would God remove his people from the earth before his glorious and loud return that every eye will see when he prayed for the father not to do so.

I ask not that you take them out of the world, but that you guard them from the evil. John 17:15

Thank you for the response and pertinent verse. My study begins today.... Thanks again and be blessed
 
First thing we have to do is dispense with is the term "rapture", which is found nowhere in the bible. That word just poisons the discussion. The correct term is "seize" which is what will happen to all living believers when the 7th trumpet sounds and the lord returns in great glory and loud commotion that every eye and ear on earth will see and hear. Nothing sneaky about it.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be seized (ἁρπάζω) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
Thank you for those pretrib rapture verses.

Now post one pointing to a postrib rapture.
 
First thing we have to do is dispense with is the term "rapture", which is found nowhere in the bible. That word just poisons the discussion. The correct term is "seize" which is what will happen to all living believers when the 7th trumpet sounds and the lord returns in great glory and loud commotion that every eye and ear on earth will see and hear. Nothing sneaky about it.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be seized (ἁρπάζω) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
1 thes 4 in the Latin Bible.
17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo......
"Rapiemeur", is where we get the slang "rapture"

( taken from 'rapio')

Verb​

edit
rapiō (present infinitive rapere, perfect active rapuī, supine raptum); third (-iō variant) conjugation

  1. to snatch, grab, carry off, abduct, rape, steal
From google;
The English word "rapture" derives from rapere (via the Latin rapiemur, which means "we shall be caught up"). While Spanish shares many Latin roots, modern Spanish-speaking churches use arrebatamiento or rapto to translate "

It is in the Latin bible, but you didn't know that.
If that is some giant hurdle, then we can call the: "catching away/seizing violently away" ,something else.
Since everyone uses "rapture" it just makes talking to postribbers a little less tedious.
But if you need "catching away/ seizing violently" spelled out, I can accommodate.

Nah...I will pass.....to lame to even go there.
 
P1, you are a lot of fun.

When the tribulation begins, and you are still hanging around on the earth, be of good cheer that you have another chance at it.
Conversely, when the words of Jesus prophecy are fulfilled, and you are dumbfounded watching yourself and colleagues stay to face the AC, be of good cheer!
You foolish virgins will meet the actual bride in heaven after martyrdom!
( but only those that take the mark go through the trib)...if you actually have that desire.

Not sure exactly what your role will be, since it says all you left behind and martyred, had to wash your dirty robes .

Try and refute those bible concepts.
Try on "concept vs concept."

That going personal mess , and conjecture, is lame.