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T
The problem is for a guy, if you are dating an attractive girl, even if you are keeping your hands to yourself, maybe just light kissing or whatever, maybe nothing at all, I think it is literally impossible to not have lustful thoughts. It's just the way guys are wired - and mostly girls as well. I believe it's the way God made us.
Does it make sense that 5 seconds before saying "I do" you have no lustful thoughts, and 5 seconds after you are allowed to have all the lustful thoughts you want? It just doesn't make sense.
Mutual lust (which you might also consider under some circumstances a lose synonym for chemistry) is a healthy, maybe even essential, part of a marriage, yet we are meant to completely turn that part of us off before marriage?
How do you reconcile that?
Does it make sense that 5 seconds before saying "I do" you have no lustful thoughts, and 5 seconds after you are allowed to have all the lustful thoughts you want? It just doesn't make sense.
Mutual lust (which you might also consider under some circumstances a lose synonym for chemistry) is a healthy, maybe even essential, part of a marriage, yet we are meant to completely turn that part of us off before marriage?
How do you reconcile that?
I think that's a brilliant question. I don't know the answer. I'm just saying.
If you read my earlier post - here in this thread somewhere - I was saying something similar, about desire being ok and even important. And I think if a guy and a girl are dating with purpose (inteding to marry) - that desire should be seen as on hold, not switched off. It's not saying no, it's saying not yet.
In fact it's good practice for marriage because there are bound to be other times even within marriage where that drive needs to be riddled with self control and sacrifice, such as one partners being patient so that they can both be satisfied, and controlling oneself when one finds themself feeling aroused in the presence of someone else.
It's not that the drive is bad, it's that it needs to be reserved for the right times and places so that it isn't spoiled.
I still don't think that fully answers your question though. How about someone that isn't dating, and perhaps has no intention to ever be (without ruling out the possibility necessarily)?
That person still has a sexual drive, which they maybe have no intention of ever needing - but perhaps they will, so how do they allow it to be a positive thing in case they ever need it, but prevent themselves from sinning sexually via lustful thoughts (or even actions) ?
Good question. That's all I got. Wish I had more to say.
If you read my earlier post - here in this thread somewhere - I was saying something similar, about desire being ok and even important. And I think if a guy and a girl are dating with purpose (inteding to marry) - that desire should be seen as on hold, not switched off. It's not saying no, it's saying not yet.
In fact it's good practice for marriage because there are bound to be other times even within marriage where that drive needs to be riddled with self control and sacrifice, such as one partners being patient so that they can both be satisfied, and controlling oneself when one finds themself feeling aroused in the presence of someone else.
It's not that the drive is bad, it's that it needs to be reserved for the right times and places so that it isn't spoiled.
I still don't think that fully answers your question though. How about someone that isn't dating, and perhaps has no intention to ever be (without ruling out the possibility necessarily)?
That person still has a sexual drive, which they maybe have no intention of ever needing - but perhaps they will, so how do they allow it to be a positive thing in case they ever need it, but prevent themselves from sinning sexually via lustful thoughts (or even actions) ?
Good question. That's all I got. Wish I had more to say.
What we consider to be "marriage" now-a-days is not in any wise similar to marriage in Bible times. In Bible times the woman was given, or chose to be given to the man. I believe then - after Israel's establishment - she was presented to the High Priest to confirm her virginity and then the man took her into his tent.
There may have been some ceremony before hand but I don't recall reading any in the Bible. I think the guy just took the woman into the tent and that was it. Marriage wasn't a ceremony, it was being joined to the wife. Intercourse is marriage - not a ceremony - because marriage is becoming one flesh.
Now, that man had not laid a hand on her sexually up until that point in time. He had not kissed her - sexually - or touched her in any wise sexually. None of that happened until they entered the tent.
The conclusion we must make is that if you have had sexual relations with a woman, then in God's eyes you married her.
Quest
There may have been some ceremony before hand but I don't recall reading any in the Bible. I think the guy just took the woman into the tent and that was it. Marriage wasn't a ceremony, it was being joined to the wife. Intercourse is marriage - not a ceremony - because marriage is becoming one flesh.
Now, that man had not laid a hand on her sexually up until that point in time. He had not kissed her - sexually - or touched her in any wise sexually. None of that happened until they entered the tent.
The conclusion we must make is that if you have had sexual relations with a woman, then in God's eyes you married her.
Quest
No offense, but I really don't agree with your comment. It sounds to me like you are saying that people are helpless to their urges. Unfortunately helplessness against temptation seems to be the prevailing opinion of the Christian world right now.
Does the man love the woman or her body? If you love the woman then you will respect the sanctity of her body, seeing it as God's temple. Joseph in the Bible was repulsed by the thought of committing adultery because it would be a sin against God. Repulsed! He was ready to throw up!
This is all about perfect love, which St. John says is quite possible. He explains clearly who has obtained perfect love and who has not, which leaves the vast majority of the Christian world condemned. Not without hope however, but God has promised to judge mankind by the words of that great book, so He must draw a clear line in the sand.
Quest
Does the man love the woman or her body? If you love the woman then you will respect the sanctity of her body, seeing it as God's temple. Joseph in the Bible was repulsed by the thought of committing adultery because it would be a sin against God. Repulsed! He was ready to throw up!
This is all about perfect love, which St. John says is quite possible. He explains clearly who has obtained perfect love and who has not, which leaves the vast majority of the Christian world condemned. Not without hope however, but God has promised to judge mankind by the words of that great book, so He must draw a clear line in the sand.
Quest
L
I think you're right. Maybe they just proclaim to everyone that they're now married.
But, Jesus went to a wedding (where He turned water into wine) and I remember the parable of the ten virgins. Perhaps they had "receptions" to celebrate the union of the marriage instead of a ceremony (like we have now) and that was that.
But, Jesus went to a wedding (where He turned water into wine) and I remember the parable of the ten virgins. Perhaps they had "receptions" to celebrate the union of the marriage instead of a ceremony (like we have now) and that was that.
Its not the lustful thoughts that are the problem. Thoughts come and go, the problem is when we indulge them and nourish them. When we make things the focus of our entire mind and think of little else, that is what God considers wrong. Playing out senarios in our mind, sexual or not, for instance. I've read a book that talked about capturing our thoughts and locking them away. That is what we must do as christians. If a fleeting thought passes though our mind we are supposed to tell ourselves we aren't allowed to think that way, and then replace the thought with something else, say a bible verse.
As for the marriage part, I think the idea is that God has given the person to you and therefore they are yours. Lust is synonomous with Greed and coveting what isn't yours to have. Your wife or husband is yours just as you are theirs. That being said, even married people can get so focused on each other and the physical relationship that they forget God. Turn it into an idol of sorts. Single or married that is a bad thing because it is replacing God.
As for the marriage part, I think the idea is that God has given the person to you and therefore they are yours. Lust is synonomous with Greed and coveting what isn't yours to have. Your wife or husband is yours just as you are theirs. That being said, even married people can get so focused on each other and the physical relationship that they forget God. Turn it into an idol of sorts. Single or married that is a bad thing because it is replacing God.
So what then, because I had sex before I believed unto the LORD, and his word, and had faith, and had been saved, I am married to this girl, I once dated years ago?
That doesn't make sense to me what so ever.
That doesn't make sense to me what so ever.
1 Cor 6:
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
So in God's eyes, you married that harlot because marriage and becoming one flesh is the same thing.
I tell you this Dmurray, in the past - and in my old church - if you fornicated with a woman in a Christian church family, you would be forced to marry that woman.
Quest
Hey there. None taken... just for clarity which part of what I said gave you the impression that I was saying people are helpless to their urges? You even quoted me and I couldn't find anything in the quote that I can understand how you would interpret it that way. I'm not offended, and I respect your right to disagree, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, and understand what it is you "heard" me say.