So is the general consensus that demon possession in the Bible was mental illness?

[Dan_473]

Do I have proof. Show me a video, news article, or anything that documents a case of demon possession in the modern first world similar to those depicted in Bible times.

I don't think that answered JosephsDreams' question

You have hard proof "that demon possession doesn't happen in educated, first world societies" ?

I believe your answer would be "no, I do not".

 

[sealabeag]

Interview with an Exorcist | Catholic Answers

This article might be informative.

 

[Dan_473]

I am talking about the type of possession recorded in the Bible, and whether or not that was actually demon possession or mental illness. If it was truly demon possession, why does that kind of behavior only happen in uneducated third world communities?

maybe it would help if you said what you consider the defining charactaristics of the type of possession in the bible.

as nearly as I can tell, and I could be wrong on this, but in the bible every time a christian attempts to cast out a demon, they come out right away. is this a defining charactaristic of the type of possession in the bible?

 

[Dan_473]

Oh dear. I guess I'll play along.

My proof is there are no "video, news article, or anything that documents a case of demon possession in the modern first world similar to those depicted in Bible times."

If you think this is untrue, then the burden is on YOU to come up with proof that can discount my claim.

I think what you have shown is that you know of no video, news article, or anything that documents a case of demon possession in the modern first world similar to those depicted in Bible times.

I don't believe you have shown that none exist, especially if we include the word "anything" above.

I believe the burden is on the one making the assertion.

 

[ladylynn]

Just checking in on this issue. As you know, demon possession is mentioned quite a bit in the new testament. When it's symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness.

Demon possession is not isolated to the New Testament, or even to Christianity, but the one commonality is that it is believed in generally uneducated, third world societies (note that I am referring to the belief that specific people in your community are demon possessed and that they can be exorcised. Not just the abstract belief of demon possession. The idea that demon possession is possible is not the same as believing, along with the rest of the community, that your neighbor two doors down is currently demon possessed.)

Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities....

I don't believe mental illness is (always) about demon possession. Tons of rich and poor people in the United States are totally influenced by the devil and his demons. I can only guess how many are possessed. Killings and all kinds of horrors from the influences of the one who kills steals and destroys.

We are learning more and more about the brain and how to manage it. The Bible says God has not given us a spirit of fear., but of POWER and LOVE and a SOUND MIND. Just like He has given us so many things we have yet to work out in the power of the Holy Spirit.

We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling... meaning not work for our salvation but work OUT what Jesus paid to put IN us..the fruits of the Spirit ... power, love and a sound mind.
Not trembling out of fear but trembling in joy and expectation of the good He has done. Just like the woman who touched Jesus garment and was healed of the blood issue she had.

There is a very interesting and godly woman named (Dr.Caroline leaf) She is a believer who studies the brain and came to some conclusions the world does not always agree with. She is a scientist. Well worth looking into her teaching on youtube. Gives major hope to believers who suffer from depression and anxiety and mind disorders.

 

[JesusIsAll]

In the end, isn't it academic, this notion of what is demon possession? On the one hand, you have a raving lunatic, maybe spouting blasphemies, whatever, on the other an unbeliever, let's say a football fan who knows the stats of every player, who could pass psychological tests with flying colors. How are they different? You say the first one is possessed, but not the other? Somebody who's totally absorbed by the demonic entertainment culture, that's designed to have you doing everything but thinking of the the things of God, which could even be obsessive stamp collecting or raising orchids a person's idol, but somebody seeking all things of the world, the flesh and the devil, with disregard for God, is that person not also possessed in another very real way? Is that person, or is that person not, a very slave to sin and the devil? Wouldn't you call this a very real form of possession, blinded by the world to the things of God? Is a slave, or is a slave not, a possession of the master?

People seem to have a very high threshold of what they'll call evil. But, in God's economy, anything that replaces the things of the Lord in peoples' hearts and minds is evil. Consider this, how the Lord Jesus actually called what would be considered good, responsible family men, who do good things for their children, evil. Do you think perhaps God has a different standard than society of what, in fact, is evil?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

That verse is interesting, in that those who surely love and give good things to their children are called evil. In fact, God's tolerance is zero sin, when it comes to whether or not a person faces hell and damnation. A person can easily go to hell over a life dedicated to football.

If you believe demon possession is just somebody talking to hallucinations and ripping at their hair, think of all those in the culture slaves to the Godless, Satanic world. It really seems academic, whether somebody goes to eternal damnation with a hundred personalities, or with one personality, who knows all the statistics of a hundred ball players.

Did anybody see that science fiction movie, about a guy who found these special sunglasses, that made him able to see the skeleton-like faces of the alien people who were really controlling the world? I believe, if this were possible, you'd be surprised how many demonic skeletors there are out there, feeding you a steady diet of the world, the flesh and devil, teaching you that sitting around a campfire and getting crocked on beer is as good as things get, silk hats on pigs galore, sinking the whole culture deeper into sin, like boiled frogs. Skeletors in your neighborhood, skeletors at the shopping mall. Add to that Christians, driving "under the influence" on, say, message boards. And does a person have to be clinically mentally ill to be literally as sick as hell, in eternal matters, that is, with regard to the only things important?

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[Dan_473]

First off, I know not all mentally ill people act the way demon possessed people did in the Bible. I know that. I wasn't stereotyping all mentally ill people. But there are autistic/schizophrenic people who do match the behavioral descriptions of Biblically possessed people rather closely. My coworker has an autistic son who could match those descriptions quite accurately.

Also, similar to TinTin, you mention demons are more subtle today, even given some examples of how they can corrupt people in these subtle ways. The problem is that there is no reason given as to why they are more subtle. I mean, what reasoning is there to believe that demons decided to be less obvious and work more stealthily? There's no real basis for this! Demon possession has been the same way (old testament to new and beyond) for thousands of years in this regard. And you're happy to just accept that they must have changed to stealthier tactics!?

a possible reasoning is that "the serpent was more crafty"... maybe there's a learning curve with demons.

does the ot talk about demon possession? I thought it was a nt-thing... I could be wrong...

 

[Dan_473]

I'm going to head out, so thanks for all your responses. It seems like the general consensus is that demon possession has changed over time to "adapt" to the modern world. This seems to satisfy everyone concerning this, although it really is just an assumption at best, but I suppose it's plausible. It will forever be a mystery to me why possession and miracles were more blatant/public in the older times than they are today.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

note that Jesus responds differently to different people about eternal life/salvation, probably related to culture, education, and what they need to grow.

 

[ladylynn]

In the end, isn't it academic, this notion of what is demon possession? On the one hand, you have a raving lunatic, maybe spouting blasphemies, whatever, on the other an unbeliever, let's say a football fan who knows the stats of every player, who could pass psychological tests with flying colors. How are they different? You say the first one is possessed, but not the other? Somebody who's totally absorbed by the demonic entertainment culture, that's designed to have you doing everything but thinking of the the things of God, which could even be obsessive stamp collecting or raising orchids a person's idol, but somebody seeking all things of the world, the flesh and the devil, with disregard for God, is that person not also possessed in another very real way? Is that person, or is that person not, a very slave to sin and the devil? Wouldn't you call this a very real form of possession, blinded by the world to the things of God? Is a slave, or is a slave not, a possession of the master?

People seem to have a very high threshold of what they'll call evil. But, in God's economy, anything that replaces the things of the Lord in peoples' hearts and minds is evil. Consider this, how the Lord Jesus actually called what would be considered good, responsible family men, who do good things for their children, evil. Do you think perhaps God has a different standard than society of what, in fact, is evil?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

That verse is interesting, in that those who surely love and give good things to their children are called evil. In fact, God's tolerance is zero sin, when it comes to whether or not a person faces hell and damnation. A person can easily go to hell over a life dedicated to football.

If you believe demon possession is just somebody talking to hallucinations and ripping at their hair, think of all those in the culture slaves to the Godless, Satanic world. It really seems academic, whether somebody goes to eternal damnation with a hundred personalities, or with one personality, who knows all the statistics of a hundred ball players.




Did anybody see that science fiction movie, about a guy who found these special sunglasses, that made him able to see the skeleton-like faces of the alien people who were really controlling the world? I believe, if this were possible, you'd be surprised how many demonic skeletors there are out there, feeding you a steady diet of the world, the flesh and devil, teaching you that sitting around a campfire and getting crocked on beer is as good as things get, silk hats on pigs galore, sinking the whole culture deeper into sin, like boiled frogs. Skeletors in your neighborhood, skeletors at the shopping mall. Add to that Christians, driving "under the influence" on, say, message boards. And does a person have to be clinically mentally ill to be literally as sick as hell, in eternal matters, that is, with regard to the only things important?

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Wow very thoughtful post JesusIsAll. Yes, I agree with much of what you said too. The devil hates us so much. he hates humans who are made in the image of God. So to get humans to do devilish things is what he wants. And possession does happen there is no doubt. It's just one of the many disgusting ways the enemy seeks to steal kill and destroy God's creation that God loves and sent His Son to die for.

I believe the enemy does it both ways and many and varied ways. he doesn't have to make someone do the wacky stuff like in the movies or like we hear in Africa or hidden places in nice neighborhoods. he can bring down families using the lies and the human sinful nature as well as using demons. Have you ever read the book The Screwtape Letters by C.S.Lewis ?

Lewis goes into how the enemy uses our own selfishness and sinful flesh against us. All he has to do is bring about situations and we just fall into play and sin miserably because 'it's what humans do' without Christ. he doesn't have to do much at all. Very interesting read.

 

[Dan_473]

If you have two people with the same ailment, one due to natural causes and one due to demon possession, would modern day medicine be able to cure both people?

I think one issue that would arise is that medicine has only limited success with things like autism... so I've heard.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Have you ever read the book The Screwtape Letters by C.S.Lewis ?

No, I haven't read all of the The Screwtape Letters. If was something like Dante, which I had to read in school, I just couldn't get into, but not for any reasons involving the quality of C.S. Lewis' work. It was just a personal matter of not being into heavy fictionalizations of anything theological, but, again, not disparaging the merits, this a personal thing. It's sort of been my specialty, focus, to analyze what the enemy is doing in the real world, or in the Bible, same thing. But thank you for the mention, as perhaps it's something, being older, worth revisiting? Lord knows I used to read novels, galore, of little to no real merit. Thank you!

Now, I did read Ben Hur, which I thought was amazing, much better than even one of the greatest films ever made.

 

[like-minded66]

Just checking in on this issue. As you know, demon possession is mentioned quite a bit in the new testament. When it's symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness.

Demon possession is not isolated to the New Testament, or even to Christianity, but the one commonality is that it is believed in generally uneducated, third world societies (note that I am referring to the belief that specific people in your community are demon possessed and that they can be exorcised. Not just the abstract belief of demon possession. The idea that demon possession is possible is not the same as believing, along with the rest of the community, that your neighbor two doors down is currently demon possessed.)

Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities....

You've come to a conclusion for yourself and you're baiting believers to believe it too. I don't know you but I'll inform you that:

1) You are deceived (Matthew 24:4; 2 Timothy 2:22-26)
2) This is a doctrine of a demon (1 Timothy 4:1, 2)
3) You are in danger of falling away (1 Timothy 4:1, 2)
4) You need to repent and turn back to the truth in God

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In the end, isn't it academic, this notion of what is demon possession? On the one hand, you have a raving lunatic, maybe spouting blasphemies, whatever, on the other an unbeliever, let's say a football fan who knows the stats of every player, who could pass psychological tests with flying colors. How are they different? You say the first one is possessed, but not the other? Somebody who's totally absorbed by the demonic entertainment culture, that's designed to have you doing everything but thinking of the the things of God, which could even be obsessive stamp collecting or raising orchids a person's idol, but somebody seeking all things of the world, the flesh and the devil, with disregard for God, is that person not also possessed in another very real way? Is that person, or is that person not, a very slave to sin and the devil? Wouldn't you call this a very real form of possession, blinded by the world to the things of God? Is a slave, or is a slave not, a possession of the master?

People seem to have a very high threshold of what they'll call evil. But, in God's economy, anything that replaces the things of the Lord in peoples' hearts and minds is evil. Consider this, how the Lord Jesus actually called what would be considered good, responsible family men, who do good things for their children, evil. Do you think perhaps God has a different standard than society of what, in fact, is evil?

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

That verse is interesting, in that those who surely love and give good things to their children are called evil. In fact, God's tolerance is zero sin, when it comes to whether or not a person faces hell and damnation. A person can easily go to hell over a life dedicated to football.

If you believe demon possession is just somebody talking to hallucinations and ripping at their hair, think of all those in the culture slaves to the Godless, Satanic world. It really seems academic, whether somebody goes to eternal damnation with a hundred personalities, or with one personality, who knows all the statistics of a hundred ball players.

Did anybody see that science fiction movie, about a guy who found these special sunglasses, that made him able to see the skeleton-like faces of the alien people who were really controlling the world? I believe, if this were possible, you'd be surprised how many demonic skeletors there are out there, feeding you a steady diet of the world, the flesh and devil, teaching you that sitting around a campfire and getting crocked on beer is as good as things get, silk hats on pigs galore, sinking the whole culture deeper into sin, like boiled frogs. Skeletors in your neighborhood, skeletors at the shopping mall. Add to that Christians, driving "under the influence" on, say, message boards. And does a person have to be clinically mentally ill to be literally as sick as hell, in eternal matters, that is, with regard to the only things important?

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I remember that movie. "Them." With Roddy Piper.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think the fact that we can cast demons out with Gods authority would make them prefer to stay more hidden and sneaky...

 

[sharkwhales]

This makes no sense and points directly back to what I was saying in the first place. Why is it that demon possession is so blatant in uneducated third world communities but it is "covert" and "secret" in the modern world? Why aren't there cases of demon possession going on in the United States, UK, and so forth? We still hear of them in India and in the poorer regions of South America, Africa, and Asia.

I've heard stories of possession from many different sources -- a few even from my father from when he was praying with others over someone. Sometimes there is a distinction between possession and oppression; in oppression the demon does not have full control, but may manifest when it is pinpointed for eviction. I have seen people spontaneously manifest. If you want to know about it, speak to people who work in deliverance ministries.

There are a few possibilities to explain why this doesn't seem as common in the west, other than a narrow-minded assumption that everyone who ever considered it real, was ignorant.

1. It is downplayed directly or indirectly due to the naturalist/rationalist focus of western culture. Stories of real supernatural occurrences are ignored because they are not scientifically verifiable and people don't want to know about things that can't be scientifically explained (i.e. something people don't have power over)

2. It is not as easy for it to occur due to the spiritual environment -- western cultures tend to be exposed to Christianity, in which some ministries still work on clearing out demonic influence from anyone that comes to them.

3. It is strategic in a sort of spiritual 'Cold War' sense. Deception works to their advantage in the most powerful part of the world where human intellect and humanistic values are emphasized. This is also the information age and we are living in the most media rich environment on the planet. If the enemy 'plays his hand' and reveals his presence, it could be recorded and go viral and we have the christian culture of the West which the public could easily turn to when they know the supernatural is real. So it's better for the enemy to keep a low profile and let people continue building up mental barriers against the reality of the supernatural.

And I suppose 4. would be any combination of the above.

There is definitely strategy involved when there is a spiritual war taking place throughout human history. Anyway, your assumption that demon possession doesn't occur at all in educated communities could make a good example of some of these points. If the enemy lets you think you've won, to the point you might even doubt their existence (some Christians do) then you won't be in any position to stop them if they decide to do something.

 

[like-minded66]

Just checking in on this issue. As you know, demon possession is mentioned quite a bit in the new testament. When it's symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness.

Demon possession is not isolated to the New Testament, or even to Christianity, but the one commonality is that it is believed in generally uneducated, third world societies (note that I am referring to the belief that specific people in your community are demon possessed and that they can be exorcised. Not just the abstract belief of demon possession. The idea that demon possession is possible is not the same as believing, along with the rest of the community, that your neighbor two doors down is currently demon possessed.)

Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities....

Demon possession in the Bible was demon possession, just as it is today in any society.

I personally have experienced demonic oppression as a believer. I have also heard three, close to home, eye witness accounts of a person who was possessed here in the United States. And other accounts from people from third worlds, and also when I visited a third world country.

Here is an account from John Piper himself, a leading reformed thinking theologian, here in the United States:
[video]http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/piper-on-healing-and-exorcism[/video]

 

[JesusIsAll]

I remember that movie. "Them." With Roddy Piper.

Thank you for the name! I'd sort of like to see it again. I found it a very strong theme, taken as a parable of real world evil, unseen by most, very much reflecting the real situation, vis-a-vis operations of the demonic world kingdom. Considering the times, seeing it again, maybe it will seem more like a documentary, or the Grammys?

 

[JesusIsAll]

If the enemy lets you think you've won, to the point you might even doubt their existence (some Christians do) then you won't be in any position to stop them if they decide to do something.

Not knowing your enemy is the first step in how to lose the battle. If one doesn't even acknowledge there's an enemy to be careful of, it's like declaring open season on yourself. What is that saying? "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thank you for those clips LikeMinded. I've never heard of this man. He is very and calm.

 

[like-minded66]

Thank you for those clips LikeMinded. I've never heard of this man. He is very and calm.

You're welcome!