So is the general consensus that demon possession in the Bible was mental illness?

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nogard said:
First off, I know not all mentally ill people act the way demon possessed people did in the Bible. I know that. I wasn't stereotyping all mentally ill people. But there are autistic/schizophrenic people who do match the behavioral descriptions of Biblically possessed people rather closely. My coworker has an autistic son who could match those descriptions quite accurately.

Also, similar to TinTin, you mention demons are more subtle today, even given some examples of how they can corrupt people in these subtle ways. The problem is that there is no reason given as to why they are more subtle. I mean, what reasoning is there to believe that demons decided to be less obvious and work more stealthily? There's no real basis for this! Demon possession has been the same way (old testament to new and beyond) for thousands of years in this regard. And you're happy to just accept that they must have changed to stealthier tactics!?
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C.S. Lewis did say something that made sense. The devil's biggest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist.
 
Chuckt said:
It happens here but it isn't documented because educated people don't believe.
There are books on it but educated people don't believe so if you have rosey colored glasses on, roses is all you can see.
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So in Bible times, there would be a child in the community that was believed to be demon possessed. His family believed it. The community believed it. If anyone wanted to see it, they could just stop on by and take a look.

Where is this today? What rosy glasses are people wearing exactly that is covering this up? What demon possessed child is flailing around on the street, foaming at the mouth, while everyone looks the other way?
 
We could give you all the proof you would need and you still wouldn't understand, because you're not a Christian.
 
What power is Paul speaking of here the same or no?

1 Cr 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know,
not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
 
The demons in the West don't need to work as overtly as in other parts of the world, not because they're 'poorer/less educated' etc., but because they have people here distracted largely with materialism, secular humanism and sex etc. Why would they need to distract you with other idols if one or two are already leading you away from God? They don't care what you do, as long as you don't have time for God.
 
Chuckt said:
Why doesn't it? I'm sure there are some people holding down the truth in unrighteousness in educated communities because they are demon possessed.
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Precisely so. Demons are leading a world of people around by the nose. One doesn't have to be out of control to be controlled by demons, the powers of darkness working every which way against creation. The Bible is clear demons can control nations, which has to be through people. It's a much bigger picture than just raving insanity. It's all sorts of criminality and evil, and much of that considered borderline disorders, no cognizance there are demonic influences on many people. They even try to work against Christians. How many type-A, war mongering leaders have a demon(s) pulling their strings? All the better for the demons that people don't recognize it's them. Ignorance is like giving them carte blanche. And scoffers wonder why the world is so screwed up. Well, you who don't want God, you get the other guy.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 
nogard said:
So in Bible times, there would be a child in the community that was believed to be demon possessed. His family believed it. The community believed it. If anyone wanted to see it, they could just stop on by and take a look.

Where is this today? What rosy glasses are people wearing exactly that is covering this up? What demon possessed child is flailing around on the street, foaming at the mouth, while everyone looks the other way?
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Did you ever play Stratego where you can't see the pieces of your opponent? Half the fun is acting like you have a powerful piece and chasing another person's piece and making people believe it.

Demons were there with God in the beginning and I'm sure they are very educated with 6,000 years of human history. They can act anyway they want to act. Just because they acted one way doesn't mean they will act the same another time and there are different classes of demons who are more powerful and who probably are more concerned with Billy Graham than you or me.
 
nogard said:
Oh dear. I guess I'll play along.

My proof is there are no "video, news article, or anything that documents a case of demon possession in the modern first world similar to those depicted in Bible times."

If you think this is untrue, then the burden is on YOU to come up with proof that can discount my claim.
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That is not logical. You can't prove something with a negative. If that was the case, there would be no need for criminal lawyers. Nor would I ever want you for my lawyer. You prove something with a positive.

Here is the definition of "proof" - evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement..

So let me end this right here, because you just displayed your inability to prove anything. My question was more rhetorical then genuine. I knew you could not prove it, because it is impossible to. I was more curious to see the spirit of your reply.

You have been on firmer ground if you had said something like...It seems "that demon possession doesn't happen in educated, first world societies".
You stated it as a fact, and you can never prove that as a fact, and in fact you wrote : "Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society."
The burden of proving your statement is on you. But you can't do it. But that's cool, no harm done.
"Oh dear'"

 
It speaks of being lifted up with pride and falling into the condemnation of the devil

Which always reminds me of this verse in Job though

Job 41: 34 He beholdeth all high things:
he is a king over all the children of pride.

What would be the difference between the Spirit of the world or the prince of the power of the air which works in the children of disobedience and one who is posessed by a devil though?

There are degrees, but Satan doesnt even come across as nutso in the garden just a little weasel
 
Chuckt said:
C.S. Lewis did say something that made sense. The devil's biggest trick is making you believe he doesn't exist.
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That must be a new trick, because apparently he didn't care about being brazen back in the old days :)

But that does bring up a good counter-discussion to all this. We've been talking about public demon possession, but the opposite of that is, of course, public miracles. Both demon possession and miracles are more public in uneducated, third world societies. When a society becomes modernized, both demon possession and miracles become more subtle and abstract. God and the devil stop being so showy with their actions and become more discreet. It is interesting food for thought.
 
There are probably several scholarly books about Demons.

"What Demons Can do to Saints" by scholar Merrill F. Unger.

"The Coming Darkness" by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon and forwarded by Dr. Walter Martin.

Biblical Demonology, Revised, By: Merrill F. Unger
 
JosephsDreams said:
That is not logical. You can't prove something with a negative. If that was the case, there would be no need for criminal lawyers. Nor would I ever want you for my lawyer. You prove something with a positive.

Here is the definition of "proof" - evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement..

So let me end this right here, because you just displayed your inability to prove anything. My question was more rhetorical then genuine. I knew you could not prove it, because it is impossible to. I was more curious to see the spirit of your reply.

You have been on firmer ground if you had said something like...It seems "that demon possession doesn't happen in educated, first world societies".
You stated it as a fact, and you can never prove that as a fact, and in fact you wrote : "Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society."
The burden of proving your statement is on you. But you can't do it. But that's cool, no harm done.
"Oh dear'"
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Either way, you can't provide evidence to the contrary so it's a moot point...

But I will concede that saying, "It seems like..." is the more appropriate phrase and the one I should have used.
 
nogard said:
That must be a new trick, because apparently he didn't care about being brazen back in the old days :)

But that does bring up a good counter-discussion to all this. We've been talking about public demon possession, but the opposite of that is, of course, public miracles. Both demon possession and miracles are more public in uneducated, third world societies. When a society becomes modernized, both demon possession and miracles become more subtle and abstract. God and the devil stop being so showy with their actions and become more discreet. It is interesting food for thought.
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So they only care about third world countries?
They don't bother me?
 
nogard said:
Either way, you can't provide evidence to the contrary so it's a moot point...

But I will concede that saying, "It seems like..." is the more appropriate phrase and the one I should have used.
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People in the occult believe in demons. They just call them different names.
You're the minority. Christians believe, Jews believe, Muslims believe, you don't believe.
 
JosephsDreams said:
That is not logical. You can't prove something with a negative. If that was the case, there would be no need for criminal lawyers. Nor would I ever want you for my lawyer. You prove something with a positive.

Here is the definition of "proof" - evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement..

So let me end this right here, because you just displayed your inability to prove anything. My question was more rhetorical then genuine. I knew you could not prove it, because it is impossible to. I was more curious to see the spirit of your reply.

You have been on firmer ground if you had said something like...It seems "that demon possession doesn't happen in educated, first world societies".
You stated it as a fact, and you can never prove that as a fact, and in fact you wrote : "Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society."
The burden of proving your statement is on you. But you can't do it. But that's cool, no harm done.
"Oh dear'"
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My Orthodox Jewish friend has a 4,000 year old commentary of people claiming to see them.
 
Chuckt said:
People in the occult believe in demons. They just call them different names.
You're the minority. Christians believe, Jews believe, Muslims believe, you don't believe.
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This isn't about belief in demons or angels or God or Satan. It is about the people in the gospels who were called demon possessed, and who behaved in certain ways because of that possessions. This is about whether that was actually demon possession or not, given that demons apparently don't possess people in this same manner once the society becomes educated.

My Orthodox Jewish friend has a 4,000 year old commentary of people claiming to see them.
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that doesn't necessarily help things with this discussion.
 
Chuckt said:
So they only care about third world countries?
They don't bother me?
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I'm just saying it's odd how God and Satan are so open/public in societies that are not as advanced and so stealthy/subtle in societies that are advanced. It could lead to an impression that the acts credited as possession/miracles by unadvanced cultures may be unreliable.
 
nogard said:
Just checking in on this issue. As you know, demon possession is mentioned quite a bit in the new testament. When it's symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness.

Demon possession is not isolated to the New Testament, or even to Christianity, but the one commonality is that it is believed in generally uneducated, third world societies (note that I am referring to the belief that specific people in your community are demon possessed and that they can be exorcised. Not just the abstract belief of demon possession. The idea that demon possession is possible is not the same as believing, along with the rest of the community, that your neighbor two doors down is currently demon possessed.)

Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities....
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I believe the "smarter" a person is ,the higher chance of demon possession. Satan uses the high ranking and very intelligent folks to promote his agenda. the less "smarter" a person(you and me) is the higher chance of demon influence.

Believers can't be possessed, but they sure can be influenced by demons.


I do believe that a very many of mental illnesses are from demon influence( Not possession.) The answers to ALL of human problems are in the word. We see many mental illnesses because people are influenced by doctrines of demons(not possessed) and have no idea of the doctrines of Christ and the REAL solutions to their problems.


Bible doctrine...........it does the body good!
 
I'm going to head out, so thanks for all your responses. It seems like the general consensus is that demon possession has changed over time to "adapt" to the modern world. This seems to satisfy everyone concerning this, although it really is just an assumption at best, but I suppose it's plausible. It will forever be a mystery to me why possession and miracles were more blatant/public in the older times than they are today.
 
nogard said:
generally uneducated, third world societies
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i was just reading about the white dwarf star sirius B. it cant be seen and was never discovered until the late 1800s the funny thing there is a tribe in mali africa called the dogon. they have a high regard for the stars, they even told the crazy story of an invisible star that was a companion star of sirius. and they knew about this white dwarf hundreds if not thousand of years before the "educated" western scientist. so hard to believe these dumb uneducated 3rd world people would know such things. if only we could get these simple minded idiots some wall marts, jerry springer and celebrity news magazines we can have these folks as smart as us in no time.
 
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