Starnes: Refusing gay wedding customers costs Oregon bakery $135K

[didymos]

No; however, it is Hebrew and renders in English per the often misunderstood "That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun" from Ecclesiastes 1:9.

This is hebrew too:

וְאֵת שַׂר הָאֹפִים, תָּלָה: כַּאֲשֶׁר פָּתַר לָהֶם, יוֹסֵף.

(from Gen. 40: 22 btw)

 

[Mitspa]

I like that idea... do like In N Out burger and put a verse on every cup, burger package, fries package etc... Just stamp it on the back of each cake and if they don't like it tough lol.

Yep ...just practicing our free exercise of faith....we may have to go into the whole kosher type mindset and market our own foods with expressions of our faith in every product...if they want it that way...we both can be happy

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

In your and David Morton's opinion.

Fairest review that I've read: https://mises.org/library/fascism-left-and-right#_ftnref2

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

from the article,

“This case is not about a wedding cake or a marriage,” the final order read. “It is about a business’s refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation. Under Oregon law, that is illegal.”

That's what the commission's opinion said it was about. But it isn't about that, either. It's about Oregon's law the directly violates and stands counter to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act I linked and quoted from in the OP.

It has long been the opinion of SCOTUS that a state law in conflict with federal law is negated by the federal law. Apparently that doesn't phase Oregonian bureaucrats bent on promoting political correctness -- unless, of course, political correctness benefits Christians. Then they become religious bigots.

 

[Agricola]

I find it sad that this war over homosexuality which Christians pour fuel on the fires, obviously result in many homosexuals being denied the opportunity to hear gospel and to know Christ.

Refusing to provide a service and making people upset is not a good advert for Christianity. Homosexuality is not that big a deal anyway, its only the athiests who have made it such as it is now legal but illegal in Bible, which only gets a couple of mentions anyway.

All they had to do was say that they did not agree with their lifestyle or condone it, but they would still make them the best cake they could. That is love. Maybe the homosexual couple would then think that all Christians were not full of hate and treated homosexuals like sub-humans.


I would be interested to know if the same bakers would produce a cake for a hetrosexual couple celebrating 10 years of living together, or what about the single mum who wants a cake for her 1 year old child which was born after a one night stand? Both are committing sin and living in sin, just as much as the homosexual couple.

 

[PennEd]

Homosexual incremental agenda over the past 20 yrs:

1995- We don't want marriage just civil unions

2005- yes we want marriage, but it will in no way affect you

2013-14- Bake us a homosexual wedding cake and photograph our homosexual wedding or else...

2015- Yes we wanted homosexual marriage all along, and we will make it illegal to speak against (see Oregon judges ruling)

2016? Church tax exempt status taken away if no homosexual weddings allowed...

2017? Christians actually jailed for speaking out against homosexual marriage...

2018? Children removed from "intolerant" Bible-believing Christian homes....


Yet there will be those, even Christians on here, that will say something along the lines of: "Cmon! THAT could never happen!!"

 

[kedge]

All they had to do was say that they did not agree with their lifestyle or condone it, but they would still make them the best cake they could.

Does anyone remember the bakery incident in northern ireland?, it wasn't about the cake it was about the pro-gay marriage message or slogan to be written on the cake.

I would be interested to know if the same bakers would produce a cake for a hetrosexual couple celebrating 10 years of living together, or what about the single mum who wants a cake for her 1 year old child which was born after a one night stand? Both are committing sin and living in sin, just as much as the homosexual couple.

It depends on what they want written on the cake?

 

[Agricola]

Does anyone remember the bakery incident in northern ireland?, it wasn't about the cake it was about the pro-gay marriage message or slogan to be written on the cake.


It depends on what they want written on the cake?

IF what is being requested to be put on the cake is not breaking any laws or deemed offensive, then a Christian baker should write it as per customers instructions.

Saying "I support Gay Marriage" is for the customer, again the Baker can say "I do not agree with it", but simply disagreeing with something is not a valid reason to refuse customers rights. If someone came into the shop and asked to put a swear word on the cake, then the bakers can refuse and have consumer law on their side, same applies if someone asks for a cake to be decorated with or shaped into something obscene.

 

[Mitspa]

IF what is being requested to be put on the cake is not breaking any laws or deemed offensive, then a Christian baker should write it as per customers instructions.

Saying "I support Gay Marriage" is for the customer, again the Baker can say "I do not agree with it", but simply disagreeing with something is not a valid reason to refuse customers rights. If someone came into the shop and asked to put a swear word on the cake, then the bakers can refuse and have consumer law on their side, same applies if someone asks for a cake to be decorated with or shaped into something obscene.

So the customer has rights of free expression of their sexual perversion, but the Baker has no right to express their morality?

This is insane!

Free speech to some is the right for the ungodly to tell the godly they have no right to speak. Anyone who goes along with this sort of logic, probably don't need to speak anyway.

 

[TecumsehGR]

So the customer has rights of free expression of their sexual perversion, but the Baker has no right to express their morality?

This is insane!

Free speech to some is the right for the ungodly to tell the godly they have no right to speak. Anyone who goes along with this sort of logic, probably don't need to speak anyway.

“My first question was what’s the wedding date,” Klein told television station KTW in Portland. “My next question was [the] bride and groom’s name. … The girl giggled a little bit and said, ‘His name is Tyrone.’” He then informed the women that the bakery does not make cakes for interracial events.

“I apologized for wasting their time and said that, unfortunately, we do not do interracial marriages,” Klein explained.
The woman left Sweet Cakes upset about the incident, and later, she filed a complaint with the state. The Oregon attorney general’s office soon launched an investigation against the Klein’s as the state’s non-discrimination laws prevent public accommodations from being denied to any individual on the basis of “race, color, religion, sex [or] sexual orientation.”

As segregationists and anti-miscegenationists use scripture to justify their beliefs, it seems you'd have to allow what I posted above to occur too then to maintain consistency.

As an aside, it seems this bakery was more than willing to do cakes for divorces, babies being born out of wedlock, pagan solstice parties, and cakes related to stem cell cloning. They just appear to draw the line at same sex marriages:

Cake Wars: Asking Shops Who Denied Gays Cakes What Cakes They'll Make

 

[Agricola]

So the customer has rights of free expression of their sexual perversion, but the Baker has no right to express their morality?

This is insane!

Free speech to some is the right for the ungodly to tell the godly they have no right to speak. Anyone who goes along with this sort of logic, probably don't need to speak anyway.

It would be insane if the baker involved took same stance with every customer, but apparently that is not the case, agreeing to make a cake for a witches coven with satanic symbols on the cake, so obviously they think that homosexuals are worse than Satanists and witches.

As I said before, homosexuality has been blown out of proportion

 

[tourist]

There use to be freedom of religion in this country.

 

[crossnote]

It would be insane if the baker involved took same stance with every customer, but apparently that is not the case, agreeing to make a cake for a witches coven with satanic symbols on the cake, so obviously they think that homosexuals are worse than Satanists and witches.

As I said before, homosexuality has been blown out of proportion

So you are using the 'equality' argument rather than the 'freedom of conscience' argument?
Welcome to Socialism.

 

[TecumsehGR]

So you are using the 'equality' argument rather than the 'freedom of conscience' argument?
Welcome to Socialism.

Hard to argue this is socialism when we're talking about a privately owned business employing wage labor.

 

[crossnote]

Hard to argue this is socialism when we're talking about a privately owned business employing wage labor.

Agri is offering us a "all sins are equal" approach rather than an individual conscience approach...you missed my point.

 

[Agricola]

So you are using the 'equality' argument rather than the 'freedom of conscience' argument?
Welcome to Socialism.

I am using the argument of hypocracy and consumer law.

Now, the UK has has equality laws in place a lot longer than the USA. I work in the public sector for a well known bank and fully aware of what the law states regarding this. It seems it is a similar situation in the US, but to play the religion card to discriminate against a person who just wants a cake because thier sin is more offensive, but totally ignore the sin of other people because its less offensive, then sorry that is wrong and hypocritical.

Why is homosexuality considered just as evil as the unforgivable sin, when Jesus does not even mention about homosexuals.

 

[Oncefallen]

I can't help but chuckle when I read this thread.....the couple was NOT refused service solely because they were gay. They were refused service because the wanted a cake that would celebrate their homosexuality. I'm quite sure that if the same couple had asked for a birthday cake or a dozen cupcakes they would have been served with a smile.

By your logic Agricola a gay baker would be required to bake a cake that a Christian ordered with the text of Lev 20:13 on it. A Muslim baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by a Christian that says Jesus is Lord on it. A black baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by the local KKK with a burning cross on it. A Jewish baker would be required to bake a cake for the local neo Nazis that say Heil Hitler on it.

In each of these circumstances I say that the baker is justified in refusing service not based on the customer's race, political or religious persuasion, but based on their own personal convictions.

 

[TecumsehGR]

I can't help but chuckle when I read this thread.....the couple was NOT refused service solely because they were gay.

The judge found that it was a distinction without a difference. They offered the service for heterosexual couples, and the refusal of the exact same service solely based on sexual orientation was discriminatory.

By your logic Agricola a gay baker would be required to bake a cake that a Christian ordered with the text of Lev 20:13 on it. A Muslim baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by a Christian that says Jesus is Lord on it.

Seems they would, yes.

A black baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by the local KKK with a burning cross on it.

No, there are no special protections for political ideology; you can refuse service (discriminate) based upon political ideology. However, you cannot discriminate based on "race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older" according to ORS 659A.403 .

A Jewish baker would be required to bake a cake for the local neo Nazis that say Heil Hitler on it.

Again, according to the law, you can refuse service based on political ideology.

 

[crossnote]

The judge found that it was a distinction without a difference. They offered the service for heterosexual couples, and the refusal of the exact same service solely based on sexual orientation was discriminatory.



Seems they would, yes.



No, there are no special protections for political ideology; you can refuse service (discriminate) based upon political ideology. However, you cannot discriminate based on "race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older" according to ORS 659A.403 .



Again, according to the law, you can refuse service based on political ideology.

in your selective picking, you overlooked this example of Fallen's...

A Muslim baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by a Christian that says Jesus is Lord on it.

 

[AllanSnackbar]

Homosexuals are purposely targeting Christian businesses as punishment because we don't agree with them about their lifestyle. It's also a form of bullying and intimidation for anybody who dares to disagree with them. They are wanting to frighten people into accepting their lifestyle.

What... Like threatening hell if someone doesn't accept the Christian life style?

Getting a fine? Finite

Eternal pain and suffering? Infinite

Lets get things into perspective here. The Christian is getting let off pretty lightly in comparison to the homsexual in the long run.