The book of Job, my favorite book.

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You’re claiming Elihu is an agent of satan which is upside down and backwards from reality. In other words, your comprehension, your vision, your claim is of the opposite spirit, it is antichrist-much like the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24

Final warning from me bubba
I analyzed Elihu a lot and was open to seeing him either way, good or bad. I poured over his speeches and picked apart everything he said trying to figure out who he is and his motivation. Have you ever considered a different point of view of Elihu? Or are you only locked into the one you hold now? If you're open, I can provide more specifics, such as Job 34:36 where Elihu wishes nothing but punishment on Job, saying, "My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men."

Also, if you want to address the *substance* of what I wrote, that might be more constructive. I see you made a blanket statement and an accusation of me, but where is there any substantive response to the previous content?

Thanks again.
 
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If anyone here is looking for a great sermon series on the Book of Job, there is an excellent one by John A. Hartley. He preached 42 sermons on Job, one for each chapter of the book. They are highly insightful, scholarly, and downright revelatory.

Here are a few of the links to his sermons which deal specifically on the character of Elihu. Hope this is helpful!

ELIHU: MAN ON FIRE
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/8242101444766/

ELIHU: FALSE PROPHET, PRIEST & KING
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/92212013570/

ELIHU WANTS TO CRUCIFY CHRIST
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/96211224476933/

ELIHU SILENCES GOD
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/912212327283558/

EVEN ELIHU BELIEVES AND TREMBLES
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/926211541364613/
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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If anyone here is looking for a great sermon series on the Book of Job, there is an excellent one by John A. Hartley. He preached 42 sermons on Job, one for each chapter of the book. They are highly insightful, scholarly, and downright revelatory.

Here are a few of the links to his sermons which deal specifically on the character of Elihu. Hope this is helpful!

ELIHU: MAN ON FIRE
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/8242101444766/

ELIHU: FALSE PROPHET, PRIEST & KING
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/92212013570/

ELIHU WANTS TO CRUCIFY CHRIST
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/96211224476933/

ELIHU SILENCES GOD
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/912212327283558/

EVEN ELIHU BELIEVES AND TREMBLES
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/avcopc/sermons/926211541364613/
An OPC preacher?!? This fella should know better🤦‍♂️
 
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An OPC preacher?!? This fella should know better🤦‍♂️
Are you able to state any specifics or details or any information at all as to why you disagree? I'm seeing various reactions but also wondering what is your actual argument. If you don't have one, that's fine. Just curious if you can share. Otherwise, those sermons should be a big help.
 

NOV25

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Can you explain your position? Besides blanket criticisms do you have reasons that you can present, too?
Can I explain my position? Yes
Will I explain my position? Not anymore than I’ve already explained it to you.

As a reminder, if your claim that Elihu is a picture of antichrist is false-is in fact the opposite, then you are attributing that which is holy, to that which is satanic. Why would I engage with you, other than to warn you of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I believe Elihu is the writer of this book as he speaks in the first person. Job asks for a mediator who was made of clay. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. (Job 9:23)

Elihu and God
Compare these verses carefully.


Elihu said, “Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” Job 34:35

Elihu said, “Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.” Job 35:16

The Lord said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2
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Elihu said, “If thou canst answer me, set they words in order before me, stand up.” Job 33:5

The Lord said, “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Job 38:3
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Elihu said, “Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Job 37:14-16

The Lord said, “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion therof in the earth? Canst thou lift up they voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?” Job 38:33-34
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Elihu said, “Shall even he that hateth right govern? And wilt thou condemn him that is most just?” Job 34-17

The Lord said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” Job 40:2
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Elihu said, “Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.” Job 32:2

Elihu said, “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, my righteousness is more than God’s?” Job 35:2

The Lord said, “Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?” Job 40:8
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In every case Elihu said it first and the Lord repeated.
I agree about Elihu being the author.

Job 32.
12 "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.

14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches."


15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

17 I said,
"I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me."
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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I agree about Elihu being the author.

Job 32.
12 "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.

14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches."


15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

17 I said,
"I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me."
Job and the others speak in first person as well so I dunno 🤷‍♂️

But I agree with you and @tttallison, Elihu speaks in the same tone as the Lord does.

——

Often folks get hung up in the first chapter, try to make Job into some sort of saint, when in fact God is merely stating Job was pious (tam) and righteous (yashar)-similar tone as Paul describing himself pre conversion.

If memory serves, same language used to describe Lucifer pre-fall. 🤷‍♂️

In other words, there’s no real indication from God that we are to view Job as a Christlike figure in the first 2 chapters-and after Job speaks we should no better lol
 
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Can I explain my position? Yes
Will I explain my position? Not anymore than I’ve already explained it to you.

As a reminder, if your claim that Elihu is a picture of antichrist is false-is in fact the opposite, then you are attributing that which is holy, to that which is satanic. Why would I engage with you, other than to warn you of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
I have noticed a pattern with the lovers of Elihu. When there are legitimate answers asked of them, they mostly go unanswered. Also, (perhaps because they cannot fully defend their position) end up with unwarranted attacks and accusations. Why is that?

Not trying to press you beyond what you are willing to share. Based on your reactions to previous posts, it seemed you had a lot more to offer in the conversation. That is ok if that is not the case, but I honestly did not find strong reasons behind your claims.

For example, you claim that Elihu is right because God does not rebuke him at the end. Don't you see this logic does not work, however? Someone else could come along and claim Elihu is wrong because God does not affirm him either. So, it is not a strong argument or position.

If you are not interested in having this conversation, that is fine. I thought that was part of why this forum exists. Elihu is a very mysterious character, and there are many people who agree with him and many people who do not agree with him. Some also only remember the 3 friends and not Elihu when you ask them. So I believe it is a conversation worthy of having and listening to differences of opinion. But that might not be for everyone.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
I agree about Elihu being the author.

Job 32.
12 "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.

14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches."


15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

17 I said,
"I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me."

Job and the others speak in first person as well so I dunno 🤷‍♂️
It's not that Elihu speaks of himself in the first person. It's that Elihu switches from addressing to the three friends in the second person (you) and starts referring to them as "in the third person (they)", In verses 15-17 Elihu is not citing his own words spoken at the time, but is providing commentary as the narrator. of the book.
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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PaulThomson said:
I agree about Elihu being the author.

Job 32.
12 "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.

14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches."


15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

17 I said,
"I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me."


It's not that Elihu speaks of himself in the first person. It's that Elihu switches from addressing to the three friends in the second person (you) and starts referring to them as "in the third person (they)", In verses 15-17 Elihu is not citing his own words spoken at the time, but is providing commentary as the narrator. of the book.
Oh, I see what your saying now. Thanks for pointing out something new to me, now I get to reread Job with this in mind 👏😁
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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PaulThomson said:
I agree about Elihu being the author.

Job 32.
12 "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:

13 Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.

14 Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches."


15 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.

16 When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;)

17 I said,
"I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me."


It's not that Elihu speaks of himself in the first person. It's that Elihu switches from addressing to the three friends in the second person (you) and starts referring to them as "in the third person (they)", In verses 15-17 Elihu is not citing his own words spoken at the time, but is providing commentary as the narrator. of the book.
I quickly read Job today looking at the writing style, it does seem Elihu is the author-puts to rest the view Elihu speaks for satan.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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I have noticed a pattern with the lovers of Elihu. When there are legitimate answers asked of them, they mostly go unanswered. Also, (perhaps because they cannot fully defend their position) end up with unwarranted attacks and accusations. Why is that?
Do you have any examples you can share of legitimate questions re Elihu that Elihu fans were not willing to answer?
 
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Do you have any examples you can share of legitimate questions re Elihu that Elihu fans were not willing to answer?
Sure. Thank you for the question. There are unanswered questions and at times a lack of acknowledgement of basic facts in the story that I have encountered from others. I'll share some here:

1. Have you noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? God explicitly affirms Job, both at the beginning and the end of this story, but where is there any explicit affirmation of Elihu by anyone?

2. It clearly says four times that Elihu is burning with anger. This is what launches him into his speeches. If Elihu is there to "help" Job, how does delivering his speech while burning with anger going to benefit Job? How is his burning anger supposed to be helpful?

3. In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?

4. In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?

5. Have you noticed that the way Elihu speaks to Job is completely different than how God speaks to Job? Elihu's speeches toward Job are dominated by harsh statements and accusations. His words are full of harsh judgment and criticism. Comparatively, the majority of the way God speaks to Job is in the form of questions. Did you notice that?

6. In Job 35:2 Elihu accuses Job of saying that his righteousness is more than God's. Where does Job say this? I do read in chapter 9 where Job explicitly says the exact opposite of this accusation, but can you point to where Job says what Elihu is claiming?

7. In Job 36:4 Elihu says that one who is "perfect in knowledge" is with them, referring to himself. Then in Job 37:16 Elihu refers to God as perfect in knowledge. So Elihu is equating himself with God here. Did you notice that? Does that sound right to you? Isn't it strange that even Jesus Christ Himself when He walked the earth "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" as it states in Philippians 2. Do you support this claim of Elihu about himself?

8. Elihu claims that he will teach Job wisdom. Can you explain what wisdom Elihu has to offer that Job does not already have? Did you know that the chiastic structure of Hebrew poetry puts the most important part of its text in the middle? In this case that is chapter 28 and is attributed to Job. The final line in that chapter is the bullet point for the entire story, namely, "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." So, again, what wisdom does Elihu have that he needs to teach Job, as he claims?

I have more but I'll tie pause here. Thanks again for the question.
 

ZNP

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A Hedge of Protection

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

In the book of Job we learn that God puts a hedge of protection around His believers, and their house and all that they have. God blesses the work of their hands and causes their substance to be increased. So then the question we need to be asking is what did Job do that prompted God to remove this protection and blessing? Over the course of the book of Job God teaches Job a lesson and once he learns that lesson the hedge of protection is returned and the blessing is returned.

So what is the lesson?

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God is not a liar, if God says this then we can eliminate sin. That was not the reason God removed the hedge of protection. However, let's consider this, God is omniscient. He knew that if He asked Satan to consider Job that the result would be an attack. Based on verse 8 many conclude that God is like some bored kid with a magnifying glass burning ants up. However, God is righteous, His throne is established on righteousness, and God would never do anything that is unrighteous. We have a covenant with God that He will protect and keep us. For God to simply break that covenant would be unrighteous so you can also eliminate that as a possibility.

However, if Job was thinking "there is none like me in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil" it would not be unrighteous for God to agree with Job and even boast of him to Satan. We are judged by our words, and our covenant with God warns us straight up "pride goes before a fall".

So let us consider this, suppose Job was proud, he no longer thought that he could fall but instead prayed for others in the event that they would be led away by temptation. Let's look at what God says to Him?

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.


It is very clear that God is dealing with Job's pride.

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

God has placed a hedge of protection around us, Satan cannot touch us, and He has blessed us. But don't become proud. Be thankful, be full of praise, be joyful, but also be fearful that you might fall into the same temptation that Lucifer fell for and then God will be forced to teach you a lesson. The lesson is simple, you are not God, and you are no match for Satan if God removes His protection.
 
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It is difficult to agree with your perspective on this story. I do agree with you that Job does learn (and grow) as a result of enduring his ordeal. That seems very clear no matter what. However, the other extrapolations don't really seem to work.

1. First of all, the main conflict of the story is between God and satan, not God and Job. Satan has challenged God's relationship with His creation, and in the end satan is proven wrong because Job does not break faith and curse God as satan claimed he would. God uses Job to prove that God's relationship with His creation is relational, not transactional.

2. You speculate that Job may have been thinking of himself as perfect and upright, but where does it say anything like this in the story? It's complete conjecture. Also, if Job is full of pride, then that would be sin, right? But you already stated you agreed with verse 8 where God calls Job blameless. So which is it? These ideas in your post are contradictory.

3. You state it is clear God is dealing with Job's pride. How is that clear? Did you notice that Job is repeatedly calling out to God, seeking Him, and deeply desires to have his relationship with God restored all throughout the story? Job is coming through all of the details of his life trying to see what he got wrong and how he can be in fellowship with God again. He actively asks God to show him his sin. Does that sound like a proud person to you?

4. Have you read the book of James in the NT? The assessment of Job by James in verse 5:11 is about Job's endurance and perseverance. His assessment is not about Job learning his lesson due to his pride. Have you ever considered this assessment by James?

5. Can you respond to these two verses? In Job 2:3 God tells satan, "...thou movedst Me against him, to destroy him without cause." In Job 42:11 it says, "...and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him". What do you say to these two verses?