The grace of God and the Law

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus is explaining that while believers (who are already saved) will not lose their eternal salvation, they will not experience the Father's blessing and forgiveness for their daily sins if they harbor a hard heart against others.

We are saved by grace, it's a done deal. Not forgiving one another doesn't change that.

Which part is he saying any of that ?

“We are saved by grace, it's a done deal. Not forgiving one another doesn't change that.”

so basically you’re position is whether god forgives us or not ….. we’re saved by grace ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re saying whether god forgives us or not has nothing to do with being saved ? So Jesus must just not have understood things

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Are people also saved when thier raised up and damned for doing evil ?

Or maybe it’s Paul that didn’t understand

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.

” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

i suppose whether those who do good are given eternal life or …. Those reject the truth and do evil they receive wrath thier all saved by grace either way why would they need to believe the lords word about anything .

You guys should start learning what Jesus said will save it’s much more effective than avoiding it at all cost

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@pinebeach I should also have stated it as "definitely a law that is applicable to faith but is only pertinent to the unsaved who are under law not grace".

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace doesn’t reject the teachings of repentance and obedience it teaches us to accept those things

It doesn’t teach people “ you don’t need to do anything Jesus tells us your already saved “

it teaches us to believe what Jesus said and trust him teaches us to repent and live upright lives in this world because we have to do this

Telling everyone “ don’t believe you need to repent and obey the lord …..you’re already saved “ is never going to help anyone. It’s just giving people the mind “ I don’t need to change anything it’s irrelevant I’m saved already

It’s teaching people this is not true

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭

To teach people “ that’s not true you don’t have to ever answer for anything you do your already saved “ is the exact opposite message Gods grace teaches people

Sad really




“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15

 

[pinebeach]

Last post on this then I'm out.

Definitely a law that is applicable to faith. More easily seen in the NIV

[Rom 3:27 NIV] 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

When you take into account the preceeding verses, not to mention everything else Paul writes and the NT in general, I find it impossible to reach your conclusion.

Not every translation reads as what you quote and the NIV is OK but does not get the best rating. Are we going to work off one translation and disregard others or what actual experts have to say about what Paul is meaning?

Hey I'm fine with you believing as you will, but coming out of the gate and waving the NIV and posting scripture with the word 'law' when the law being referred to in all those scriptures is THE law is not proof of what you say.

Paul refers to the law throughout Romans, but he is contrasting the law that no one can keep, that required sacrifices day after day, with forgiveness through Christ...the gospel.

@pinebeach I should also have stated it as "definitely a law that is applicable to faith but is only pertinent to the unsaved who are under law not grace".

I don't understand what you are saying here.

 

[rogerg]

It doesn’t teach people “ you don’t need to do anything Jesus tells us your already saved “

It tells us that Jesus is the Savior and that man is not. As the Savior, all needed for salvation for those He chose unto
salvation, He successfully accomplished on their behalf. Your problem is that you either don't understand the doctrine of a Savior, or
don't believe that Jesus is THE Savior or both but always revert back to salvation being dependent upon man's works.

 

[pinebeach]

Jesus is explaining that while believers (who are already saved) will not lose their eternal salvation, they will not experience the Father's blessing and forgiveness for their daily sins if they harbor a hard heart against others.

We are saved by grace, it's a done deal. Not forgiving one another doesn't change that.

Hey legion

this person does not understand what grace is or how God applies the righteousness of Christ to believers. he does not believe that salvation is through the grace of God and if you check back in the thread, you will find long long posts by him that ramble on and some of them don't even make sense.

He notices that you are new to the thread so he's having another go at trying to derail the the topic. By all means, try to convince him of what the Bible actually says, but you will just get a huge post that changes nothing

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It tells us that Jesus is the Savior and that man is not. As the Savior, all needed for salvation for those He chose unto
salvation, He successfully accomplished on their behalf. Your problem is that you either don't understand the doctrine of a Savior, or
don't believe that Jesus is THE Savior or both but always revert back to salvation being dependent upon man's works.

Yeah the difference is all that is what you are saying and you have to reject what the scripture says about it .

believing jesus is the Lord and savior doesn’t mean you then erase what he said ….

It’s incredible some of the arguments here , Jesus says one thing you explain why that’s not the correct belief and that’s “ grace “

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The great grace eraser

 

[rogerg]

Yeah the difference is all that is what you are saying and you have to reject what the scripture says about it .

believing jesus is the Lord and savior doesn’t mean you then erase what he said ….

It’s incredible some of the arguments here , Jesus says one thing you explain why that’s not the correct belief and that’s “ grace “

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The great grace eraser

It's really very simple. Is Jesus THE Savior or is He not? Yes or no? If you say yes, then you've stated everything
about the requirements for salvation that you need to know. If you say no, then you need to go back, read scripture, and learn about Christ as THE Savior

 

[rogerg]

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is instructing those who have already become saved - His disciples - regarding how they should live and act on earth. It was not about them losing nor obtaining eternal salvation. Christ is THE Savior, man is not.

[Mat 6:10 KJV] 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
[Luk 11:2 KJV] 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Think closely about what the below verses say. Nowhere in them do you find any contribution of/from man nor a standard of behavior required from man mentioned in them to become saved. It is all exclusively by God's grace and mercy, unto those whom He chose for salvation, through Jesus Christ, THE Savior. They, in essence, declare the gospel.

[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[rogerg]

I don't understand what you are saying here.

I am saying that for those who have become saved they are no longer under any law that defines a requirement for their salvation, except for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which God alone has placed them under. That is, Christ, on their behalf, has fulfilled all law including the law of faith, which faith, was given to them freely as a gift. Those not saved, are still under God's law that they must believe in Christ as THE Savior (along with all that a belief in Him implies), which, of themselves, they will never be able to satisfy.

 

[pinebeach]

Thanks for the explanation which I agree with except for your 'law of faith' understanding.

 

[legion]

Which part is he saying any of that ?

“We are saved by grace, it's a done deal. Not forgiving one another doesn't change that.”

so basically you’re position is whether god forgives us or not ….. we’re saved by grace ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re saying whether god forgives us or not has nothing to do with being saved ? So Jesus must just not have understood things

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Are people also saved when thier raised up and damned for doing evil ?

Or maybe it’s Paul that didn’t understand

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.

” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

i suppose whether those who do good are given eternal life or …. Those reject the truth and do evil they receive wrath thier all saved by grace either way why would they need to believe the lords word about anything .

You guys should start learning what Jesus said will save it’s much more effective than avoiding it at all cost

That last line that you commented was my comment on what I had just posted and I'm going to pretty much bow out of this because you're an idiot and just trolling things you're not actually here to learn I gave you the very answer you asked you looked right past it in attacked me enjoy hell

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That last line that you commented was my comment on what I had just posted and I'm going to pretty much bow out of this because you're an idiot and just trolling things you're not actually here to learn I gave you the very answer you asked you looked right past it in attacked me enjoy hell

“You guys should start learning what Jesus said will save it’s much more effective than avoiding it at all cost”

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes what an amazingly harsh “ attack “ I’ve launched upon you

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and what terrible “ damage “ it would do to you to consider what Jesus said in the gospel and believe it


“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what promises we forfeit when we reject what’s there ye shall not be judged:ye shall not be condemned:ye shall be forgiven: …. All because the lord is telling us his judgement and says believe

It’s sad that you believe grace eliminates what the Lord and judge of all humanity said will save or condemn them .

But I mean speaking of who might go to “ hell “ that’s not for me to decide or discuss Jesus already sort of laid all that out on his word

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace brings salvation dorsnt have to reject the word of Christ ot saves us this way ….

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Grace doesn’t avoid the teachings that teach us to repent and do good . Gods not that way at all he’s always going to say the same thing repent and do good because one day everyone’s going to be held accountable ……again you. Seem to be missing how this impacts all of that


“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It seems simple grace is found in his word not by rejecting it and explaining why no one should believe what he said . Nice believers hear what Jesus said in the gospel it’s hard to get them away from it and get them to reject it . That’s why I said you should look o to learning the things Jesus said about salvation and judgement in the gospel …it’s forever

Without it there’s no concept of this which is why you hypergracers can’t address any of it

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you begin to explain why Jesus teachings aren’t correct and that’s not the way it is . There’s nothing left to change your mind and thinking from the old corruption to the new image of righteousness.

a grace doesn’t remove what god said it works with what he said to teach us about everlasting life . If we believe we’ll receive it not we’ll keep trying to make salvation about how we ourself can explain “ how gods grace is “

 

[pinebeach]

That last line that you commented was my comment on what I had just posted and I'm going to pretty much bow out of this because you're an idiot and just trolling things you're not actually here to learn I gave you the very answer you asked you looked right past it in attacked me enjoy hell

If it posts like a troll, talks like a troll, messes up scripture like a troll...

It's a troll

 

[markss]

So can you believe that Jesus didn't cast the spirit out of the child?

Are you asking if I'm able to delude myself?

Much love!