The grace of God and the Law
- Thread starter pinebeach
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I actually said "Anyone can believe what they want to believe, but believe all things is one thing that the natural minded man cannot believe, and what the carnal minded will not believe."
For that reason I wrote
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Mark 9:23-24
Why do you believe the disciples couldn't cast the dumb spirit from the child?
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Mark 9:25-27
So can you believe that Jesus didn't cast the spirit out of the child?
He cast the dumb and deaf spirit out of the father of the child.
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deut 6:6-7
And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deut 11:19
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deut 6:6-7
And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deut 11:19
Your only purpose in this thread seems to be to try and discredit me and complain that I don't champion your posts that do not relate to the actual op
Yeah I think I have done enough to try and help you understand that you do not understand the op so go ahead and complain all you want but I'm not responding to these 'let's have a fight' invitations from you so .... whatever and over and out
We are trying to discuss salvation in this thread. We are not observing the law so I am wondering why you keep talking about it?
Did you read the op?
I am not Complaining at all I am trying to teach you to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in your posts ---cause your just post scripture and ramble on without ever explaining Spiritually what the scripture means ---
I am not surprised that you will not respond to my posts cause you know I am right in trying to get you to let the Holy Spirit direct you in your writing of your posts -----and not yourself ----
you yourself are just giving your own opinions about what Grace is and it shows very plainly in your postings ------
But that is Ok ---cause we all have to Mature in our Walk with Grace ------many will perish with their Carnal thinking still in tact ------we are suppose to Mature to the Spiritual Man thinking stage where we Rely on the Holy Spirit to direct us in our posts and give us the Rhema word not just the Logos Word like your doing------so carry on with your Logos word and your Carnal mind postings ------
Big Difference in the 2 minds ----hope you get to the Spiritual mind ----so freeing and more Spiritual enlightening
---------
Christ fullfilled all conditions for our salvation. Nothing has been left undone.
Ok I see how you are contending that faith for salvation is extended by God and the use of the word 'law' as you apply it from the verse you quoted, is your 'proof text'
Thanks. No problem; I'll find it.
The Greek for the word law here actually reflects this:
[td]νόμουnomou[/td]
[td]
[the] principle
That would render the verse to read It is excluded by the principle of faith.
The lexicon looks at it like this:
[td]
but by a law
[/td]
[td]νόμου
(nomou)[/td]
[td]
3551: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
[/td][td]
from nemó (to parcel out)
[/td]
[td]
of faith.
[/td]
[td]πίστεως
(pisteōs)[/td]
[td]
4102: faith, faithfulness
[/td][td]
from peithó
It sounds to me like Paul is saying that the only thing we are working off of (with regards to salvation) is faith. The faith that is acceptable to God for salvation ie: Christ on our behalf
If we are seeing faith as given by God only, then, it seems to me we are getting into the territory of Calvinism which renders John 3:16 spurious.
Romans 3:28: 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
In spite of the many objections otherwise by a too large a portion of people in this forum, faith does in fact justify. Does not speak of 'correct' faith or 'works' faith or colors of the rainbow faith, but the kind of faith Abraham had...He believed God and God accounted it to him as righteousness.
And yeah, some will say 'oh but he obeyed' well, my response is he would not have obeyed if he did not believe first. It's not really a chicken or the egg kind of question, but exegesis, not taking something out of context to make a point for what you already believe. I'm not saying this part in your direction...just thinking out loud.
I don't know. Are we skating along a razor edge here and trying to get understanding beyond what the verse states or is that verse best understood when looking at the entire principal or other things Paul has written.
ps: I found the thread, Eph 2...a long one...but I'm going to try and get a bird's eye view for it for pros and cons...will be back next wk.
Thanks
I'm game, so what are the rules that a man must follow to obtain the gift of eternal life?
Confess my sins? If I am not under the law then what are my sins? Sin is the transgression of the law. Wouldn't I be lying if I confess to transgressing a law which I could not have transgressed since I was not subject to that law.
I never was taught by man to read, so what is your point. (TTS)
I think we can tell a lot about the intent of a scriptural word by how it is used throughout and within Scripture itself. The "law" as mentioned in Rom 3:27, is the same word as used in the other verses (following 3:27 below is an incomplete list of usage), which clearly (at least from my POV), means it is an actual law.
[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where[G4226] [is] boasting[G2746] then?[G3767] It is excluded.[G1576] By[G1223] what[G4169] law?[G3551] of works?[G2041] Nay:[G3780] but[G235] by[G1223] the law[G3551] of faith.[G4102]
[Mat 5:17-18 KJV] 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,[G3551] or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,[G3551] till all be fulfilled.
[Mat 7:12 KJV] 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law[G3551] and the prophets.
[Mat 11:13 KJV] 13 For all the prophets and the law[G3551] prophesied until John.
[Mat 12:5 KJV] 5 Or have ye not read in the law,[G3551] how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[Mat 22:36, 40 KJV] 36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?[G3551] ...
40 On these two commandments hang all the law[G3551] and the prophets.
[Mat 23:23 KJV] 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law,[G3551] judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[Luk 2:22 KJV] 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law[G3551] of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present [him] to the Lord;
I think this was included in a prior post to you - that faith justifies, but it is only Christ's faith that does, not man's faith, because as man, his faith is imperfect and sinful- but only Christ's faith is righteous and has righteousness (Gal 2:16, Phl 3:9 below), by which perfect faith, was salvation brought to fruition, and which faith, is freely imputed to those whom He saves.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Regarding Abraham, what do you think the "it" of the verse that you referenced represent? I believe the meaning of the verse is a lot more complex than it might appear. Perhaps we can get further into it at some point if you think it is appropriate for this OP.
Thanks
Roger
To post a link to an actual post (as opposed just to a thread or a thread page) go to the actual post, and then
to make sure you are getting the right url, click the post number at the upper right hand side of the post, and
then copy the url address that is at the top of the page. You can just paste that onto any other page, but it is
neater to create a link for it by using the icon above the message box that looks like two links of a chain joined.
It is kind of in the middle of all the icons there, right beside the insert image, and insert media links. When you
click the Insert Link (ctrl + K) a small app (?) appears where you paste in the url link/address, and under the url
message box there is a line for text. That would be the text you want your link to say instead of the long url
address for the thread page and post number; you can say simply "click here" or choose anything at all to say.
To post a link to an actual post (as opposed just to a thread or a thread page) go to the actual post, and then
to make sure you are getting the right url, click the post number at the upper right hand side of the post, and
then copy the url address that is at the top of the page. You can just paste that onto any other page, but it is
neater to create a link for it by using the icon above the message box that looks like two links of a chain joined.
It is kind of in the middle of all the icons there, right beside the insert image, and insert media links. When you
click the Insert Link (ctrl + K) a small app (?) appears where you paste in the url link/address, and under the url
message box there is a line for text. That would be the text you want your link to say instead of the long url
address for the thread page and post number; you can say simply "click here" or choose anything at all to say.
Thank you, Magenta, I'll try it out.
I thought I would post today instead of tomorrow as I said at first.
You have listed quite a few verses (post (170) that actually refer to the Law, meaning the OT law given to Israel. They don't apply to what Paul is saying in Romans with regards to faith. The law given to Israel was not a law of faith; it was a law of obedience to instructions from God through Moses so I'm not sure why you would refer to them? While I agree that we can look at other useage of a word for further understanding, there is no comparable useage between THE law (613) and faith of either Christ or our own. So
hopefully we can move on from there.
I truly do not understand how you see faith as 'imperfect and sinful' and see that rectified, believing that Christ's faith somehow covers human faith? What went on with Abraham if that is so? His faith (referring to Abraham, nothing to do with a 'law of faith')
conferred righteousness to him from God. Nowhere do we find that any other process was brought about to create righteousness other than the faith of the man himself. In the following chapter, Paul writes this: 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Therefore I question the understanding of the previous chapter having Paul referring to faith as 'law'. Obviously not THE law of the OT as that would be ridiculous.
It seems to me that Paul is actually meaning that law in this instance, creates a prerequisite for salvation and that would be 'faith'.
In other words, there is only one thing, one thing that cannot be exchanged for anything else, and that one thing leading to salvation is faith. So, the word is the same, but, as done throughout Romans, Paul has ascribed a different meaning to it in order to further create the contrast of Law and faith. By the way, I did reach that conclusion myself, but have come to find out that it is the most widely accepted understanding. (researched it)
In chapter 3 we read the following:
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Obviously the law being referred to is THE law, the shadow of what was to come (through Christ) So then, how would Paul refer to faith as any part of the law? The translation of the word here cannot be with the same intent as what is being said in the previous verses.
The understanding of Romans is that Paul wrote it to explain that salvation is offered through Christ alone, APART from the law.
Salvation stands apart from the law; is not a part of the law and is actually the fullfillment of the shadow presented through THE law. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10
Continuing from v. 20
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it
22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
God is the righteous One and we receive that righteousness through faith IN, not of, Jesus. For all who believe.
Following, is an explanation of the word 'law' used, I believe as Paul intended, as a futher contrast of THE law and faith that results in salvation.
Paul anticipates an objection. Where is this written, that we can't boast in our own salvation? What kind of rule is this? Shouldn't we have this in black and white? Paul says no. That's the point. He calls it the "law of faith." Being made right before God in this way is all about faith in what God has done for us in and through Jesus. It's not about any law we can try to follow in our own strength and therefore be judged by.
Chapter Summary
Romans 3 begins with a question-and-answer scheme. These are responses one might expect from someone opposed to what Paul wrote in Romans 2. Next, Paul quotes from a series of Old Testament passages. These Scriptures show that those writers also agreed that nobody, not one person, deserves to be called righteous. Paul declares emphatically that no one will be justified by following the works of the law. Finally, though, he arrives at the good news: righteousness before God is available apart from the law through faith in Christ's death for our sin on the cross.
My conclusion then is that Christ does not extend to us the faith, as a 'free' gift in addition to salvation, to believe, but rather as it is written in chapter 10, we are saved IF we confess. I refer back to this: It seems to me that Paul is actually meaning that law in this instance, creates a prerequisite for salvation and that would be 'faith'.
In other words, there is only one thing, one thing that cannot be exchanged for anything else, and that one thing leading to salvation is faith. which I wrote towards the beginning of this very long post. It is a play on words.
I believe the correct understanding of faith is our faith through confession of our belief, in Christ (understanding His death and resurrection on our behalf and the fact He stated 'It is finished' on the cross and gave up His life rather than died through crucifixion) as seen in v.9 of Chapter 10 below.
9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Following is another post that actually addresses the word faith as does your understanding.
You have listed quite a few verses (post (170) that actually refer to the Law, meaning the OT law given to Israel. They don't apply to what Paul is saying in Romans with regards to faith. The law given to Israel was not a law of faith; it was a law of obedience to instructions from God through Moses so I'm not sure why you would refer to them? While I agree that we can look at other useage of a word for further understanding, there is no comparable useage between THE law (613) and faith of either Christ or our own. So
hopefully we can move on from there.
I truly do not understand how you see faith as 'imperfect and sinful' and see that rectified, believing that Christ's faith somehow covers human faith? What went on with Abraham if that is so? His faith (referring to Abraham, nothing to do with a 'law of faith')
conferred righteousness to him from God. Nowhere do we find that any other process was brought about to create righteousness other than the faith of the man himself. In the following chapter, Paul writes this: 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Therefore I question the understanding of the previous chapter having Paul referring to faith as 'law'. Obviously not THE law of the OT as that would be ridiculous.
It seems to me that Paul is actually meaning that law in this instance, creates a prerequisite for salvation and that would be 'faith'.
In other words, there is only one thing, one thing that cannot be exchanged for anything else, and that one thing leading to salvation is faith. So, the word is the same, but, as done throughout Romans, Paul has ascribed a different meaning to it in order to further create the contrast of Law and faith. By the way, I did reach that conclusion myself, but have come to find out that it is the most widely accepted understanding. (researched it)
In chapter 3 we read the following:
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Obviously the law being referred to is THE law, the shadow of what was to come (through Christ) So then, how would Paul refer to faith as any part of the law? The translation of the word here cannot be with the same intent as what is being said in the previous verses.
The understanding of Romans is that Paul wrote it to explain that salvation is offered through Christ alone, APART from the law.
Salvation stands apart from the law; is not a part of the law and is actually the fullfillment of the shadow presented through THE law. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10
Continuing from v. 20
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it
22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
God is the righteous One and we receive that righteousness through faith IN, not of, Jesus. For all who believe.
Following, is an explanation of the word 'law' used, I believe as Paul intended, as a futher contrast of THE law and faith that results in salvation.
Paul anticipates an objection. Where is this written, that we can't boast in our own salvation? What kind of rule is this? Shouldn't we have this in black and white? Paul says no. That's the point. He calls it the "law of faith." Being made right before God in this way is all about faith in what God has done for us in and through Jesus. It's not about any law we can try to follow in our own strength and therefore be judged by.
Chapter Summary
Romans 3 begins with a question-and-answer scheme. These are responses one might expect from someone opposed to what Paul wrote in Romans 2. Next, Paul quotes from a series of Old Testament passages. These Scriptures show that those writers also agreed that nobody, not one person, deserves to be called righteous. Paul declares emphatically that no one will be justified by following the works of the law. Finally, though, he arrives at the good news: righteousness before God is available apart from the law through faith in Christ's death for our sin on the cross.
My conclusion then is that Christ does not extend to us the faith, as a 'free' gift in addition to salvation, to believe, but rather as it is written in chapter 10, we are saved IF we confess. I refer back to this: It seems to me that Paul is actually meaning that law in this instance, creates a prerequisite for salvation and that would be 'faith'.
In other words, there is only one thing, one thing that cannot be exchanged for anything else, and that one thing leading to salvation is faith. which I wrote towards the beginning of this very long post. It is a play on words.
I believe the correct understanding of faith is our faith through confession of our belief, in Christ (understanding His death and resurrection on our behalf and the fact He stated 'It is finished' on the cross and gave up His life rather than died through crucifixion) as seen in v.9 of Chapter 10 below.
9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Following is another post that actually addresses the word faith as does your understanding.
....................BARTHIAN THEOLOGY
It's a long read, but he believed that we basically do not have any choice and our faith is not our faith, but Christ's. I am also including another long article written by RT Kendall where he references Barth and specifically the term 'the faith of Christ'.
here
It is your choice to continue to see the word 'faith' as Christ's faith, as did Barth to the exclusion of other scripture that indicates that is not at all what Paul was saying. I have concluded otherwise, after several hours of research and comparison (frankly I never understood that phrase to mean Christ's faith to begin with but anyway).
You might find it interesting to find (if you did not know already), that there exits a term for what you believe.
Please understand that I have been convinced by my previous assertions after unbiased research, that I do not agree with your conclusions and really do not want to have a debate about it. As you pointed out, a thread already exists in which a person can post their understandings.
Definition
The theology of Karl Barth (1886–1968), which represents a theological tidal wave on the landscape of 20th century theology, is a totalizing system of doctrine rooted in a novel conception of God’s relationship with humanity, summed up in what he sees as an eternally and fully realized “Christ-event,” a sovereignly willed and enacted decision of divine self-revelation and divine-human reconciliation that, by God’s free determination, bears an indirect and dialectical relation to all creaturely phenomena, whether Jesus of Nazareth, the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, or the faith, doctrine, and proclamation of the church.It's a long read, but he believed that we basically do not have any choice and our faith is not our faith, but Christ's. I am also including another long article written by RT Kendall where he references Barth and specifically the term 'the faith of Christ'.
here
It is your choice to continue to see the word 'faith' as Christ's faith, as did Barth to the exclusion of other scripture that indicates that is not at all what Paul was saying. I have concluded otherwise, after several hours of research and comparison (frankly I never understood that phrase to mean Christ's faith to begin with but anyway).
You might find it interesting to find (if you did not know already), that there exits a term for what you believe.
Please understand that I have been convinced by my previous assertions after unbiased research, that I do not agree with your conclusions and really do not want to have a debate about it. As you pointed out, a thread already exists in which a person can post their understandings.
Okay, pinebeach, it seems clear at this point that we just see these points differently and therefore will probably not
be able to reconcile our difference. So, with that in mind, I don't think it worth expending further time and effort for either of us to pursue this discussion further.
Regards.
That's fine but people should take note that Barth's entire system of theology leaves nothing to people and that means
we are helpless and cannot decide for ourselves which, I doubt, is the intent of Paul's letter to the Romans.
But it might help if you consider that the references you made to the word 'law' were all directed to the OTlaw given to Israel and not applicable to 'faith'.
I guess back to the op if anyone has anything to say about that. I'm fine either way
we are helpless and cannot decide for ourselves which, I doubt, is the intent of Paul's letter to the Romans.
But it might help if you consider that the references you made to the word 'law' were all directed to the OTlaw given to Israel and not applicable to 'faith'.
I guess back to the op if anyone has anything to say about that. I'm fine either way
Last post on this then I'm out.
Definitely a law that is applicable to faith. More easily seen in the NIV
[Rom 3:27 NIV] 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
Jesus is explaining that while believers (who are already saved) will not lose their eternal salvation, they will not experience the Father's blessing and forgiveness for their daily sins if they harbor a hard heart against others.
We are saved by grace, it's a done deal. Not forgiving one another doesn't change that.
@pinebeach I should also have stated it as "definitely a law that is applicable to faith but is only pertinent to the unsaved who are under law not grace".