The grace of God and the Law

[UnoiAmarah]

No, I'm speaking of those who insist on the observance of the Law given in the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Hor

The law is simple, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Our repentance to salvation is from unbelief to belief.

So do you believe all things?

Anyone can believe what they want to believe, but believe all things is one thing that the natural minded man cannot believe, and what the carnal minded will not believe. Why? if one simply disbelieves something without a reason will the believe things without a reason also. Faith is the reason why we believe something true, the evidence of it being true. Hence the reason one santifies their LORD by being ready to answer any man that asks the reason for the hope inside them. 1 Peter 3:15

Case in point: in the Book of Mark, a man brought his child to have a dumb spirit cast out of him, the disciples tried but couldn't and when Jesus appeared the man explained that wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foamed, and gnashed with his teeth, and pineth away. And Jesus asked how long has the brat been acting like this and the father said since a child and that the dumb spirit has cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him. Then he asked Jesus if he could do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.

What did Jesus say to the man before the man cried out with tears saying "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.":

"If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

1 Cor 13:7

 

[pinebeach]

pinebeach said:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.



No that is not what this scripture is saying at all -----this Scripture has nothing to do with Jesus Ministry ----it is actually telling you that the Father and Jesus are one in the Same -------your another one who has not the Rhema word ---making up your own interpretation to suit your own agenda -----

--That is what is SAD ----

View attachment 287893


the Word was with the Father and the Word Who is Jesus Created all things -----so the Father spoke the word and Jesus created what the Father spoke -----so the Word Jesus was with the Father in the Beginning -----

this Scripture that was quoted by pinebeach-------------has nothing to do with Jesus Ministry at all --

it is telling you Jesus was with the Father from the beginning -----the Father and Jesus are one -----

View attachment 287894-------View attachment 287895

Why are you making things personal? You are not bothering me in the least because this is not about me. You are way off course as to the actual op and I told you that twice before and you come back and post personal opinions and mockery.

The op is about God's grace through Christ being all we need, as per the many scriptures I posted which you have ignored and gone off on your own so stay on your own. It seems no one can question you or ask you a thing without you going volitile and believe me, it shows. No, it's not me. It is you.

 

[studentoftheword]

"Christian narcssists'.It's a thing.

You got that right --

Does this sound Like Yourself ------go back and read some of your posts to others -----

A "Christian narcissist" is an individual who exhibits narcissistic traits—such as an inflated sense of importance, lack of empathy, and entitlement—while adopting the outward appearance, language, and behaviors of a devout Christian.

The Pharisees come to mind in Scripture ----

Jesus called them -----Vipers ----Hypocrites -----He called them the children of the devil ----He said they were whitewashed on the Outside and defiled on the inside ------

They are Simply actually called False Christians ------


And you say this to me ------"Christian narcissist"here ?????

You are way off course as to the actual op and I told you that twice before and you come back and post personal opinions and mockery.

The op is about God's grace through Christ being all we need, as per the many scriptures I posted which you have ignored and gone off on your own so stay on your own. It seems no one can question you or ask you a thing without you going volitile and believe me, it shows. No, it's not me. It is you.

 

[pinebeach]

Seriously, this is your reply? What nonsense!



No, it's your fonts. I've already told you this a few times.

Much love!

He is very busy trying to gaslight everyone and having fun doing it. This behavior is not a part of a believer's life. So, it is interesting to note he keeps laughing at your request (he does this in all threads and others have asked him to stop also)

Sad to say, but people trying to have earnest and sincere exchanges, provide him with the ideal climate since Christians are 'supposed' to be nice. He does not even have a biblical grasp on salvation in spite of all the scripture he copy/pastes.

 

[pinebeach]

To me the question is simple, and can be expressed this way:

Does God seek our obedience through threat of spiritual death, or by revealing Himself to us knowing that as His children being in an active relationship with Him changes us, making us able to control ourselves?

There is a follow-up question, When we've continue to sin, and are not stopping, does God respond by "unbirthing" us, and resurrecting our flesh to be unrenerate again, or does He respond with effective discipline?

For me these answers are very clear in the Bible.

Much love!

Every prophet sent of God to warn Israel of her many sins and the worship of pagan gods, would have dire consequences, was also
made complete with God entreating them to come back to Him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You have an agenda. It is you own and has nothing to do with the op. You have bullied myself and at least one other person when he has asked you repeatedly and nicely to stop using those huge letters because it bothers his eyes.

But you don't care a bit about that and I noticed in another thread a different person asked the same of you but you don't care about others even if they ask nicely. I know you have to go out of your way to change the size and darkness of the font so you spend quite a bit of time doing that. I think this is a childish method you use to draw attention to your posts.

Maybe that nerve you hit on was closer than you thought possibly ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are not fine. You are intrusive, enjoy bullying others and have repeatedly continued to ignore the actual op which has nothing to do with your obsession with telling others they are sinners and need to repent.

You are not fascinated with Jesus whom you try to put in front of your bragging and self righteousness...you are fascinated with trying to make it seem we have to work to keep salvation. That, actually makes you a Judaizer.

You seem rather unstable emotionally if a discussion in a Bible forum sets you off to this extent

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh is that why you just try to take over the threads of others? That way you can play dumb and simple and make it seem you are just some innocent come along and do not have any idea of what the actual op is talking about.

That, is narcissism 101. Gaslighting at its finest. People here are not as dumb as you in your vanity think. We just always try to give people the benefit of the doubt until they demonstrate otherwise. Being kind is normal for actual believers and you take advantage of it but you know...enough is enough. We are not dumb; we see what you are doing and it says what kind of person you really are

……

 

[pinebeach]

This is another place that clarifies this for us.

"In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."

The Law speaks, He who does these will live by them, Grace speaks, In Him as life.

So where do we go for life? To the Law? Or to Jesus? This very passage announces the end of the dispensation of Law, and the beginning of the dispensation of Grace.

John again contrasts these,

John 1:16-17 KJV
16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

"In Him was life"

Much love!

Grace and truth through Christ.

Punishment and death through the law.

I think this must be one of the most pivtal questions being asked of believers today. I see it again and again. One response leads to life and the other leads to death.

How and when did Christians become so confused as to what their role in salvation actually is? We are possibly entering a time of testing in which people will be further deceived if they do not get the answer to the question right now. Notice I said possibly.

Either way, it is still one of the most important questions in history apart from whether or not you accept Christ as your Savior on His terms as the righteous and holy Lamb of God.

 

[pinebeach]

You seem rather unstable emotionally if a discussion in a Bible forum sets you off to this extent

And you say this to me ------"Christian narcissist"here ?????

I was not saying that to you student. unless of course that does describe you? otherwise, no nothing to do with you. See how you jump on things and misunderstand? smh

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are not fine. You are intrusive, enjoy bullying others and have repeatedly continued to ignore the actual op which has nothing to do with your obsession with telling others they are sinners and need to repent.

You are not fascinated with Jesus whom you try to put in front of your bragging and self righteousness...you are fascinated with trying to make it seem we have to work to keep salvation. That, actually makes you a Judaizer.

Lol yeah whats this quote from Paul an apostle of Jesus …possibly have to do with grace or salvation

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( what a bully I am for talking about this ) looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ( what a monster I am for speaking of this )

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What a dastardly deed it was to quote Paul saying this to the church and claiming it’s the truth

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why … the unmitigated gall I have to actually do this terrible thing in a post discussing gods grace in a Bible forum the gumption and just totally intentional offense I’ve committed wowzer I better start confessing ….and repent of any such behavior in the future

Go back and look at my very first post and you’ll see my intention in interacting in a post like this .

 

[markss]

So do you believe all things?

Anyone can believe what they want to believe, but believe all things is one thing that the natural minded man cannot believe, and what the carnal minded will not believe. Why? if one simply disbelieves something without a reason will the believe things without a reason also.

I'm not really sure what you are saying here.

"believe what you want to believe", is that really faith? I don't see it that way. Believe all things? Like, whatever anyone tells you?

I suppose my reply is that we put our trust in God, and learn of Him, to share His yoke, to become like Him.

Much love!

 

[rogerg]

No. Faith is not a law. I've heard that before and seen debates in this very forum regarding the same. It almost sounds like you might lean towards Calvinism. You are a Christian....rigiht? How did you get there? Did faith somehow seem like a law at the time?
Glad to continue the conversation as you say tomorrow but actually today right now.

To have faith is definitely a law (see Rom 3:27 following) but for those whom Christ saves, He, as the Savior, has satisfied that law
on their behalf. For others, believing that faith is of their doing, means they are still under law. True faith is given to someone as a free gift from God or not at all.

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(I posted this in another thread, but it is also pertinent to your statement above)

It is important to note that certain biblical translations phrase salvation as being attained through the faith of Christ, rather than through our faith in Christ. This distinction carries significant theological implications: if salvation depended on our individual faith in Christ, it would suggest that the responsibility for salvation rests with us, instead of Christ as Savior. In this scenario, salvation would be contingent on our capacity to fulfill such a requirement, thus placing us under law rather than grace.

For salvation to be considered fully and genuinely by grace, all conditions necessary for salvation must have been completely fulfilled by Christ Himself, given as a free gift, with no further achievements required on our part. If Christ has not accomplished and satisfied these requirements in entirety, then one cannot assert that salvation is wholly by grace. Nevertheless, it is important to note that personal faith in Christ remains meaningful; it serves as an indication of the authenticity of our salvation and enables our inclusion among believers, the brethren, though it is not the causal factor for salvation itself.


Scripture tells us there is a law of faith, the question is, that as a law, who must satisfy it: us or God?
If by us, then beyond question, we are still under law; if by God, then it and salvation is truly by grace

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Here is the KJV biblical translation which describes the faith of Christ as that which brings justification/salvation not our faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Act 4:12 KJV] 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[studentoftheword]

You Said this to me --------
pinebeach says

I told you that twice before and you come back and post personal opinions and mockery.

The op is about God's grace through Christ being all we need, as per the many scriptures I posted which you have ignored and gone off on your own so stay on your own.
It seems no one can question you or ask you a thing without you going volitile and believe me, it shows. No, it's not me. It is you.

You say -----

No, it's not me. It is you.
It seems no one can question you or ask you a thing without you going volitile and believe me, it shows

I say ---------Narcissists avoid taking blame to protect a fragile ego and maintain a false image of superiority, often utilizing blame-shifting, denial, and projection to transfer accountability onto others.


I say ---this sound like what you do many time in your posts on this sight to others ------go back and read some of your posts ---So the Narcissists was directed to you --at your post to me -----

 

[pinebeach]

To have faith is definitely a law (see Rom 3:27 following) but for those whom Christ saves, He, as the Savior, has satisfied that law
on their behalf. For others, believing that faith is of their doing, means they are still under law. True faith is given to someone as a free gift from God or not at all.

So first of all I want to make sure I understad what you are saying. I see yr reference from Romans and the way I understand you looking at this is that you are saying that faith is an actual law and Jesus has fulfilled that faith law on our behalf? And you follow that, with if a person believes faith is their response, that belief puts them under the law and they are therefore not saved. You are saying 'true faith' is a gift. So you are making a distinction between faith as a 'free' gift from God or it is not 'true'. And you automatically create 2 classes of faith in doing so. That's what I understand from what you say...correct me anytime if I do not get what you say, as what you intended.

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(I posted this in another thread, but it is also pertinent to your statement above)

a link to the thread?

 

[rogerg]

So first of all I want to make sure I understad what you are saying. I see yr reference from Romans and the way I understand you looking at this is that you are saying that faith is an actual law and Jesus has fulfilled that faith law on our behalf? And you follow that, with if a person believes faith is their response, that belief puts them under the law and they are therefore not saved. You are saying 'true faith' is a gift. So you are making a distinction between faith as a 'free' gift from God or it is not 'true'. And you automatically create 2 classes of faith in doing so. That's what I understand from what you say...correct me anytime if I do not get what you say, as what you intended.

I'm saying that we are directed by law to have faith. Many people of themselves develop an intellectual temporary faith but not a permanent one given by Christ- one that resides in one's spiritual heart not only in the mind. In time, those with a self-produced faith, fall away from it because it was not given to them by God. There's more that can be said about this, but for now this should suffice.

For example:
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

However, a true faith, one that is from God is demonstrated in Scripture by the following verses (amongst others)

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In 2 Pe 1:1, we see a true faith given by Christ. It is from God's will, not man's

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained l ike precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

a link to the thread?

It's pretty much the same thing I posted to you but is post #929 in the "Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone" thread if you actually want to see it (sorry, not good at technical stuff so don't know how to imbed an actual link). I'll research that, and if I figure it out, will post it to you,

 

[rogerg]

I'm saying that we are directed by law to have faith. Many people of themselves develop an intellectual temporary faith but not a permanent one given by Christ- one that resides in one's spiritual heart not only in the mind. In time, those with a self-produced faith, fall away from it because it was not given to them by God. There's more that can be said about this, but for now this should suffice.

For example:
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

However, a true faith, one that is from God is demonstrated in Scripture by the following verses (amongst others)

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In 2 Pe 1:1, we see a true faith given by Christ. It is from God's will, not man's

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained l ike precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


It's pretty much the same thing I posted to you but is post #929 in the "Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone" thread if you actually want to see it (sorry, not good at technical stuff so don't know how to imbed an actual link). I'll research that, and if I figure it out, will post it to you,

@pinebeach

And I should have added that should someone believe, that of themselves, they sought salvation by works of law - through the self-producing of their own faith and not by God's grace, then they remain under law and God's wrath.

 

[pinebeach]

It is important to note that certain biblical translations phrase salvation as being attained through the faith of Christ, rather than through our faith in Christ. This distinction carries significant theological implications: if salvation depended on our individual faith in Christ, it would suggest that the responsibility for salvation rests with us, instead of Christ as Savior. In this scenario, salvation would be contingent on our capacity to fulfill such a requirement, thus placing us under law rather than grace.

What you say here, is contingent upon your view of 2 types of faith. The one being our own faith to believe in God (having heard the truth) and the other, your preference, faith as a gift from God being equal to salvation in the context of 'free' and not our idea.

 

[pinebeach]

@pinebeach

And I should have added that should someone believe, that of themselves, they sought salvation by works of law - through the self-producing of their own faith and not by God's grace, then they remain under law and God's wrath.

Gonna have to continue tomorrow. 'See' you then

 

[rogerg]

What you say here, is contingent upon your view of 2 types of faith. The one being our own faith to believe in God (having heard the truth) and the other, your preference, faith as a gift from God being equal to salvation in the context of 'free' and not our idea.

But if someone believes their faith came from themselves - through their choice and intellect - they aren't believing in God, they're believing in themselves. Plus, true faith isn't a just a belief in God - many false religions believe in God - I think that the true faith is in it being in Christ alone as the Savior, and as the Savior, that everything that pertains to salvation He perfectly achieved on our behalf with nothing remaining that He didn't achieve, and those who become saved realize they are only recipients, not participants.
Salvation and everything associated to salvation is given to them as a completely free gift from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ, the Savior, unto those who do not deserve it.
I think that it can all be summed up pretty well by saying that Christ alone is the Savior and that man is not.