The Law as a School MASTER

[dcontroversal]

The problem you have with using that from the Lord that I put in bold and underlined is that it wasn't the boasting about their works that kept them out of heaven. It is the fact that even though they professed belief in the Lord and did things in His name they still continued to live a lawless/sinful/unclean lifestyle. That is what kept them out of heaven was the sinful lifestyle they lived making all their good deeds useless and as filthy rags.
They believed by doing good here or there in His name gave them the right to continue to live however they wanted to, and did not give up there sinful ways of the flesh.

Even Apostle Paul showed in Romans 8 how being in Christ and walking in the Spirit (fruits/works) thereof is those who abide in Christ and therefor is no condemnation for continuing to do so. As he showed that he could not continue to live and walk as he showed in Romans 7 for that way he said leads to death and not eternal life.

I suggest you study more Kenneth...He never said that they didn't do the works...the problem lies with the path they chose to walk in order to gain heaven....you do realize that most religions teach works as part of salvation and of course many of those same religions teach the casting out of demons and the ability to prophesy in the name of Christ...You can lump almost every religion that names Christ in under those three banners....THEY ALL REJECT a FAITH BASED SALVATION instead OPTING for a WORKS BASED SALVATION......

Broad road that leads to hell-->works, religion and religious exercises
NARROW way-->those who teach a faith based salvation

OPEN YOUR EYES...their problem was they attempted to gain entrance by their WORKS...the door they chose was WORKS instead of genuine faith!

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is that people make it a one way system when it comes to faith, but not even the Lord nor Paul believed this way.
The Lord told some others that came to him for healing that their faith as made them well, and Paul told Titus to persist in the teachings of the Lord and not waiver for by doing so he will save both himself and those who listen to him.

Another fatal flaw by the workers for salvation is to assume, believe and teach that EVERY PLACE the word save or saved is used that it refers to soul salvation...........one flaw after another KENNETH!

 

[gotime]

Many say that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ and they are right it is clearly written by Paul.

But few ask what that means, what does it mean to come to Christ? what does it mean to be in faith?

The answer to those questions make a bid difference. For that same Paul speaking of the new birth experience said this:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

and again:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

So then what does faith do?

Rom 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

we have a new life the old one sinned/broke the law so what will the new one do?

Let Paul answer:

Rom 6:20 For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit then had ye at that time in the things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.

simple ye must be born again.

If you are still serving sin/breaking the law then you are not in faith. Because faith in Christ crucifies the old man as it is written:

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

and Faith in Christ causes new life as is written:

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

So if you do not have this then you are not in faith thus you are still under law.

 

[gotime]

you can not be justified if you have not died to the old man of sin and this can only happen by faith in Christ.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

how do I know if I have died or not?

Simple if you still break the law then the old man is well and alive.

only faith in Christ can destroy the old man. but one must die to be saved as it is written:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

and again:

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

[gotime]

This is a total faith journey but that faith has real tangible results.

as it is written:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How it comes and goes we do not know but we see the effects by faith in Christ.

notice these words of Paul:

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.


Tell me how many sins can a dead man commit? none that is right.

So death to self stops sin but the problem is how many good deeds can a dead man do? none again.

Notice we are crucified with Christ and our old man no longer lives.

but Christ live in us.

How many sins will Christ do? none

how many good deed will Christ do? many this is the Judgment then:

Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

Take a look at your works and ask yourself are they wrought in God or is the Old Man still living?

How is your faith?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Another fatal flaw by the workers for salvation is to assume, believe and teach that EVERY PLACE the word save or saved is used that it refers to soul salvation...........one flaw after another KENNETH!

No that isn't a fatal flaw, as the Lord used in context to speak of eternal life.
The Lord said do not worry about your life here in the flesh, and the things of this world. His whole teaching was about how to receive salvation through Him, and not how to be protected or saved from being hurt by things in the world. He even constantly warned the Apostles/disciples about the persecutions they would face for giving His word. He even warned of the persecutions that those who followed would face all the way tell He returns, and followed it with as long as we endured these things and did not fall away from the faith would we be saved unto salvation.

Once again Matthew 10:22 is not about the tribulation period, and it is not about being saved through the persecutions on earth. If you want to stick with this verse in Matthew not being about eternal life salvation, then in turn you would have it stating that the Lord failed the Apostles.


Peter- crucified upside down


Paul- beheaded


Matthew- slain by a halberd


John- exiled on Patmos

James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )


Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }


Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded


James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death


Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.


Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down


Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half


Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia


Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus


Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death


He did not fail the Apostles nor did they fail Him, except for Judas who betrayed Him and is set for eternal punishment in the lake of fire. All believers will face persecution for their faith in the Lord in one way or the other, some will be way more severe then others yet the standard is the same. As Paul put it only those who stand firm, continue in doing good, keep themselves in the faith will end up with eternal life.
Apostle Paul constantly shows in his epistles that there is a proper way a believer must walk in order to show that they abide in Christ and Christ abides in them. And John shows that in his epistle that those who do not walk as such do have salvation coming to them. A true faith is an active faith, and apart from the fruits of the Spirit working in and through a person. If those fruits are not evident then that person does not have a true faith, even the Lord said we will produce good fruit as believers. Even when it comes to forgiving others, even Paul says we must do for salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I suggest you study more Kenneth...He never said that they didn't do the works...the problem lies with the path they chose to walk in order to gain heaven....you do realize that most religions teach works as part of salvation and of course many of those same religions teach the casting out of demons and the ability to prophesy in the name of Christ...You can lump almost every religion that names Christ in under those three banners....THEY ALL REJECT a FAITH BASED SALVATION instead OPTING for a WORKS BASED SALVATION......

Broad road that leads to hell-->works, religion and religious exercises
NARROW way-->those who teach a faith based salvation

OPEN YOUR EYES...their problem was they attempted to gain entrance by their WORKS...the door they chose was WORKS instead of genuine faith!

[h=1]Matthew 7:21-23[/h]21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.


Sorry but that is not what I said that they didn't do the works, as I know they did the works.
But the reason they were rejected was not because they tried to work their way into heaven, it is because they continued to live a sinful lifestyle as well.
They wanted to serve the Lord and the flesh, which Lord Jesus plainly says you can not do.
He says you can not serve both and get eternal life, which Paul restates this in Romans where he says you either choose to serve sin that will lead to death, or you choose to serve righteousness in the Lord that leads to eternal life.
It does not matter if you profess to know or state you believe in the Lord if your confession is not a true one from the heart. As your actions that follow will show a true faith or not, as Paul says in Titus there are those who profess Him but in their works they deny Him making any good deeds they do disqualified for their disobedience in the faith.
Those who are disobedient to the faith the Lord says He will appoint them their place with the unbelievers in the lake of fire (Luke 12).

 

[dcontroversal]

Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.


Sorry but that is not what I said that they didn't do the works, as I know they did the works.
But the reason they were rejected was not because they tried to work their way into heaven, it is because they continued to live a sinful lifestyle as well.
They wanted to serve the Lord and the flesh, which Lord Jesus plainly says you can not do.
He says you can not serve both and get eternal life, which Paul restates this in Romans where he says you either choose to serve sin that will lead to death, or you choose to serve righteousness in the Lord that leads to eternal life.
It does not matter if you profess to know or state you believe in the Lord if your confession is not a true one from the heart. As your actions that follow will show a true faith or not, as Paul says in Titus there are those who profess Him but in their works they deny Him making any good deeds they do disqualified for their disobedience in the faith.
Those who are disobedient to the faith the Lord says He will appoint them their place with the unbelievers in the lake of fire (Luke 12).

The lawlessness was to reject Christ and instead go about to establish their own righteousness by their own works which is exactly what the Pharisees did and exactly what those who trust into a works based salvation do........

They failed to trust into the one way, the only door and that is FAITH into Christ........

You cannot chunk the following verse KENNETH

IT pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE....

IT is foolish to YOU and WRONG in your eyes that ONE can just believe and BE SAVED...........

And my other point stands......YOU paint the word SAVE and SAVED as used in every place to mean SOUL SALVATION and IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVRY PLACED that it is USED........

No matter how you slice and dice it you believe in a works based salvation period.....my bible teaches clearly that FAITH saves and FAITH ALONE SAVES......YES a saved child of GOD will produce fruit and or works, but the fruit produced by a tree does NOT MAKE THE TREE as the TREE is already alive and GROWING before it produces fruit!

A apple tree is an apple TREE ALREADY some two to three years before it produces FRUIT...this is what you fail to understand..........!

 

[dcontroversal]

you can not be justified if you have not died to the old man of sin and this can only happen by faith in Christ.

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

how do I know if I have died or not?

Simple if you still break the law then the old man is well and alive.

only faith in Christ can destroy the old man. but one must die to be saved as it is written:

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to gain his life shall lose it: but whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

and again:

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

The word justified is a legal term and means to be declared innocent and righteous before God and is applied eternally to those who have exercised belief into Christ///The one who have been saved, are justified and sanctified forever in Christ as found in Hebrews, Romans and Galatians......

There also is found a conflict that takes place in the believer between the fallen flesh which we still have and the spirit that has been born of God which is eternally saved, sealed and justified before God....Paul speaks to this and states the following....

1. The things I say I will do I do not do
2. The things I say I am not going to do I do
3. When I go to do good I find a law that sin is present with me
4. With his mind he served the law of God, with his body the law of sin
5. He was the number 1 chief sinner before God

Jesus summed up the conflict.......The spirit is in deed willing, but the flesh is weak!

ALL saved believers sin occasionally and to say that one who sins is lost contradicts John when he included himself when he wrote....

If WE say that WE have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is NOT IN US........

A saved child of God will sin, but not live a continual life of sin and there is a difference......those who like to brag and boast of their own works and holiness will disregard this and claim to be righteous...just as the Pharisees did..........!

 

[kennethcadwell]

The lawlessness was to reject Christ and instead go about to establish their own righteousness by their own works which is exactly what the Pharisees did and exactly what those who trust into a works based salvation do........

They failed to trust into the one way, the only door and that is FAITH into Christ........

You cannot chunk the following verse KENNETH

IT pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE....

IT is foolish to YOU and WRONG in your eyes that ONE can just believe and BE SAVED...........

And my other point stands......YOU paint the word SAVE and SAVED as used in every place to mean SOUL SALVATION and IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVRY PLACED that it is USED........

No matter how you slice and dice it you believe in a works based salvation period.....my bible teaches clearly that FAITH saves and FAITH ALONE SAVES......YES a saved child of GOD will produce fruit and or works, but the fruit produced by a tree does NOT MAKE THE TREE as the TREE is already alive and GROWING before it produces fruit!

A apple tree is an apple TREE ALREADY some two to three years before it produces FRUIT...this is what you fail to understand..........!

Sorry but no it was not, and Paul tells us exactly what it means to be lawlessness.
Apostle Paul says those who practice lawlessness are those who transgress the law, and live a sinful lifestyle. Nowhere in that scripture from Matthew 7 does it say because they tried to earn their way. You are interjecting what is not there, as the boasting was to prove they did the Fathers will that the Lord mentioned in verse 21. The Lord tells them because they practiced lawlessness (lived in sins) to and did not repent of their ways, He never knew them because of their disobedience to the faith.

Then in Matthew 7:24-27 that follows the Lord continues with saying the same as He said in Luke 6:46-49, that those who hear His teachings and does them have their faith built in Him. But those who hear and do not do will fall from the faith and not end up with salvation.

 

[gotime]

So many are so focused on going against works of the law for salvation that they miss another very real issue. namely the works of the flesh.

Yes you can't be saved by self righteous works of the law.

but you equally can not be saved while in the works of the flesh/sin.

Both are not rest but works.

So what then is right?

Christ living in you and if you die and Christ lives then two things happen.

you die, the works of the flesh/sin dies with you.

Christ living in you, the law is fulfilled in you as Christ will only obey his law.

Inward result the thoughts have the law written on them and every thought comes from the pure mind of Jesus.

outward result every act and word is in line with Gods law.

This is faith in action.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sorry but no it was not, and Paul tells us exactly what it means to be lawlessness.
Apostle Paul says those who practice lawlessness are those who transgress the law, and live a sinful lifestyle. Nowhere in that scripture from Matthew 7 does it say because they tried to earn their way. You are interjecting what is not there, as the boasting was to prove they did the Fathers will that the Lord mentioned in verse 21. The Lord tells them because they practiced lawlessness (lived in sins) to and did not repent of their ways, He never knew them because of their disobedience to the faith.

Then in Matthew 7:24-27 that follows the Lord continues with saying the same as He said in Luke 6:46-49, that those who hear His teachings and does them have their faith built in Him. But those who hear and do not do will fall from the faith and not end up with salvation.

Think real hard about what you just said and explain how it can jive....

Jesus never said that they did not do the works in his name, did not say that they did not cast out devils in his name, does not say that they did not prophesy in his name......

They did ALL of those things...what was the root of their problem....

HE NEVER KNEW THEM<------NOW look at the things they said they did....almost all SO CALLED CHRISTIAN religions make a big boast in their works, their ability to cast out evil spirits and demons and prophesy in the name of Christ....the problem is their ROOT (SALVATION) and the SO called CHRISTIAN religions that do the above all have ONE THING IN COMMON...they preach a WORKS BASED SALVATION just as you do....

FAITH + WORKS = a FALSE GOSPEL with NO POWER to save.......THIS IS WHAT YOU PREACH!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Think real hard about what you just said and explain how it can jive....

Jesus never said that they did not do the works in his name, did not say that they did not cast out devils in his name, does not say that they did not prophesy in his name......

They did ALL of those things...what was the root of their problem....

HE NEVER KNEW THEM<------NOW look at the things they said they did....almost all SO CALLED CHRISTIAN religions make a big boast in their works, their ability to cast out evil spirits and demons and prophesy in the name of Christ....the problem is their ROOT (SALVATION) and the SO called CHRISTIAN religions that do the above all have ONE THING IN COMMON...they preach a WORKS BASED SALVATION just as you do....

FAITH + WORKS = a FALSE GOSPEL with NO POWER to save.......THIS IS WHAT YOU PREACH!

Why are constantly trying to twist what I said to say something I didn't.
I know Jesus did not say they didn't do those works, because they did do those works, but they also lived a sinful lifestyle as well. They wanted to and did serve both spirit and flesh, and the Lord says you can not do that as that makes you luke warm and He will spit you out for living that way.

Boasting about works does not mean supporting them and defending them against those who are against works, because of how the Lord said believers in Him will perform those works.

What I said goes hand and hand with scripture, as the Lord Himself said you can serve Him and the flesh (sins). You either obey Him in the faith which leads to eternal life, or you obey your lusts and that will lead to death or eternal punishment. Faith working hand and hand with works is not a false gospel unless you want to take and throw out half of the NT scriptures including all of James that you keep only wanting to state only matters to men.
James makes a clear point that you reject by his comparison of faith + works to the body + soul. He says the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is also. Meaning that your faith without the works is not a true faith abiding in Christ, and if your faith does not abide in Christ by obeying all of His teachings then there is no salvation.

You want to claim or teach others a mere gospel that does not save, as you tell others their actions/deeds/works does not matter. Listening to you one would think they can continue to live how they previously lived and still end up with salvation, and that would be a false teaching that will lead many to stand before the Lord saying just like the goats when did we not clothe you, feed you, or visit you. And He will tell them because you denied to do for them you have denied me, go away to eternal punishment.

 

[gotime]

The word justified is a legal term and means to be declared innocent and righteous before God and is applied eternally to those who have exercised belief into Christ///The one who have been saved, are justified and sanctified forever in Christ as found in Hebrews, Romans and Galatians......

Indeed it is also a term that is only applied to one who has died to self by faith in Christ:

Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.
So clearly if one has not died then one is not in belief/faith in Jesus.

There also is found a conflict that takes place in the believer between the fallen flesh which we still have and the spirit that has been born of God which is eternally saved, sealed and justified before God....Paul speaks to this and states the following....

So is the old man dead or not?

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

He is dead how is there a conflict with a dead person? that is not faith that is called walking in the flesh.

1. The things I say I will do I do not do
2. The things I say I am not going to do I do
3. When I go to do good I find a law that sin is present with me
4. With his mind he served the law of God, with his body the law of sin
5. He was the number 1 chief sinner before God

Here you quote Paul who is not speaking of a free person but a person who is a slave to sin. note:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

Not free not life but death and sin. This is not a free person but a slave to sin due for death. Read Romans 8 for a free person.

you sited this text:

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul suggesting that both are true at once or is He simply pointing out that the flesh serves sin and the renewed mind in Christ serves the law of God?

Lets see one text from before (Romans 7) and one form after (Romans 8). before and after Christ.

Before:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

notice carefully that while in the mind he delights in the law the reality is he obeys the law of sin. SO this itself does not fit obeying with the mind.

After:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



Now Free from the law of sin and death.

Summery:

Romans 7, slave to the law of sin and needing deliverance from death.

Romans 8, Free in the spirit form the law of sin and the law fulfilled in us.













Jesus summed up the conflict.......The spirit is in deed willing, but the flesh is weak!

You quote a saying Jesus gave to His disciples of whom were yet to be converted. This is before their conversion which took place after the crucifixion of Christ. They were still slaves to the flesh the struggle here was pre conversion.

Of Peter Jesus said:

Luk_22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

in regard to the fact that Peter would soon deny Jesus. but after Pentecost we see a converted Peter:

Act_5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.






ALL saved believers sin occasionally and to say that one who sins is lost contradicts John when he included himself when he wrote....

If WE say that WE have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is NOT IN US........

Is that all John says?

for indeed this was written for those for conversion as it says:

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

So if they do not have fellowship yet with them and with the Father and Jesus are they yet converted? John is writing this stuff to show that the only way to be forgiven is to acknowledge your sin but if you don't then you can not confess and then will not be forgiven and cleansed.

what does John say for those who are converted and born again?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

in fact Jesus said this:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If you sin you are a slave to sin simple really.









A saved child of God will sin, but not live a continual life of sin and there is a difference......those who like to brag and boast of their own works and holiness will disregard this and claim to be righteous...just as the Pharisees did..........!

Holiness is a gift from God not a work for God. you say a saved child of God will sin but the word says the born again child cannot sin. who is bragging about their holiness? I tell you this I will boast in Christ and Him Crucified because it is the POWER of God. That causes a very real victory in the one who has faith in Christ. they do not work but their works are wrought in God for they come into the light that men may glorify their Father which is in heaven.

I agree that working at the law does not save, I am not taking about that, I am talking about rest form the flesh in Christ. no more Waring against sin and our old nature. complete rest in the works of Christ in us,

My answer in blue, blessings.

 

[gotime]

Think real hard about what you just said and explain how it can jive....

Jesus never said that they did not do the works in his name, did not say that they did not cast out devils in his name, does not say that they did not prophesy in his name......

They did ALL of those things...what was the root of their problem....

HE NEVER KNEW THEM<------NOW look at the things they said they did....almost all SO CALLED CHRISTIAN religions make a big boast in their works, their ability to cast out evil spirits and demons and prophesy in the name of Christ....the problem is their ROOT (SALVATION) and the SO called CHRISTIAN religions that do the above all have ONE THING IN COMMON...they preach a WORKS BASED SALVATION just as you do....

FAITH + WORKS = a FALSE GOSPEL with NO POWER to save.......THIS IS WHAT YOU PREACH!

You are right in as far as they did not know Him. and you are right that a works based salvation is wrong.

But what does it mean to know Him?

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and again the scripture in question:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

not knowing them is connected with lawlessness. John says those who know him keep/obey/do his commandments/law.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are right in as far as they did not know Him. and you are right that a works based salvation is wrong.

But what does it mean to know Him?

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and again the scripture in question:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

not knowing them is connected with lawlessness. John says those who know him keep/obey/do his commandments/law.

This epistle of 1 John is a good book to go by as John takes in chapters 2 through 4 telling exactly how one knows they abide in Christ and Christ abides in them. And John goes to say that if these things are not in your life then you are not a born again believer in Christ leading unto salvation.
It is amazing how many times the bible mentions actions before salvation even by the Lord Himself, but yet many still want to put salvation first then action second. The Lord even says only those who do the Fathers will in their lives get eternal life. Doing His will comes before salvation, not salvation then His will.........

 

[gotime]

This epistle of 1 John is a good book to go by as John takes in chapters 2 through 4 telling exactly how one knows they abide in Christ and Christ abides in them. And John goes to say that if these things are not in your life then you are not a born again believer in Christ leading unto salvation.
It is amazing how many times the bible mentions actions before salvation even by the Lord Himself, but yet many still want to put salvation first then action second. The Lord even says only those who do the Fathers will in their lives get eternal life. Doing His will comes before salvation, not salvation then His will.........

Jesus said:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So unless this new birth is present then there is no salvation as Jesus clearly said he "cannot" see the kingdom of God.

He goes on to clarify this born again experience:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Both the water of repentance and the spirit of life are required to be born again. this is seen in Baptism in Jesus example:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is the same process Paul taught in Romans:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

both death and life/water and Spirit are required for life.

and again:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

notice death plus life thought the Spirit = sons of God.

what did Jesus do after He had been born again?

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

and we know the story he came out victorious and so it will be with all who by faith are born again as it is written:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Jeff_56]

Just want to point out that it is very possible and beneficial to do the works of the Law out of response the gracious salvation granted us. Certainly, works to try and earn salvation are fruitless. Works because I've already been given salvation are a blessing.

amein. but many are and remain blind because of a reason unknown - whether it is their choice or God's, He hardens their heart
and they continue to not breath, not walk, not see the light, not do anything Jesus tells them to do - they don't walk with nor follow nor listen to the GOOD SHEPHERD,

and they don't even know it......


obviously, every person might be at this same point at some time in their life, or for a long long time,
until God shows them mercy and softens their heart and lets them start listening to Him....

and others don't ever listen but keep promoting another gospel, a false gospel, a non-saving gospel

for whatever reason, and they potentially won't ever turn to God in Jesus to be made whole, healed or saved.

 

[gotime]

its important to realize that we can not do anything without Christ. Its not our work for Jesus its His work for and in us. Being born again is not a man centered initiative. it is the work of God in us by His power through Christ. It can not be earned, He does not need our help.

Our work is very simple, believe the Gospel/good news and submit to the working of God. keep your eyes only on Him and He will finish the work He has begun in you.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus said:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So unless this new birth is present then there is no salvation as Jesus clearly said he "cannot" see the kingdom of God.

He goes on to clarify this born again experience:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Both the water of repentance and the spirit of life are required to be born again. this is seen in Baptism in Jesus example:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is the same process Paul taught in Romans:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

both death and life/water and Spirit are required for life.

and again:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

notice death plus life thought the Spirit = sons of God.

what did Jesus do after He had been born again?

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

and we know the story he came out victorious and so it will be with all who by faith are born again as it is written:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes exactly as the fruits (works) of the Spirit will be evident in a born again believer in Christ life.
If they are not evident then they have a false faith, as James also says a hearer only and not a doer is deceived as their faith is a false faith not headed to salvation because it is not rooted in Christ.
James uses the comparison of body +soul to our faith + works, and your body can not live without the soul placed in it by God. Just like your faith does not lead to eternal life without the works produced by the fruits of the Spirit.

Paul, Peter, John, and James all agree on this issue that the fruits of the Spirit that will show in the outer actions of a believer in Christ will be evident in all true born again believers.