The Law as a School MASTER

[kennethcadwell]

That is only one aspect of legalism. Legalism comes in many shapes and sizes. it is the term given to people who think that salvation comes by adherence to a set of moral laws. and failure to meet thse set guidelines will cause a lack of salvation, or loss of salvation.



No, these are not guidelines one HAS to follow. for that would make it legalism, they are guidelines one SHOULD follow, if they want to be blessed and fully participate in the kingdom of God. Grow in the grace and love of Christ, Be a mature christian. or fail to follow very well and be chastened as sons, remain babes in Christ, and not recieve the blessings which comes with being a child of God here on earth.


This is legalism, your basing ones eternal destiny based on a set of rules and regulations. Follow them and your saved, deny them and your damned.

Your right, one can serve the spirit and flesh at the same time, they are apposed to each other, thats how one grows, But learning from his mistakes. God does not kick you out when you fail. He chastenes you and loves you more. that is what makes us want to serve him. Legalism has never made anyone truly want to serve God, they serve god out of duty, not love


Your a legalist because you demand one hold up a set of standards you yourself can not even follow. You are deceived by thinking you do follow the, there is only one standard, and that is the law. Those are gods words, not mine.



The galations fell back because they returned to legalism, not because of sin. Do you even read the bible? And they were never saved, no person who truly has true faith in God would ever fall back to legalism as a means to procuring eternal life. those who do do it because that is what their true faith was to begin with. Not because of sin, but because of only belief in Christ, but no faith in the true gospel.



Why do you keep mentioning 613 laws? the commands given to moses and required to be blessed did not even include all 613.. Most of them were added later.

Well if you call me a leagist because I uphold the same standards that Paul even preached on then well be it, because it was Paul who gave the meat of the word and he is the one who said these standards still apply for salvation. A person can not walk in the flesh (sins) and walk in the Spirit both and get salvation.
The next thing is about the Galatians, as you do not realize that by going back to being justified by the law was a sin because they put the law before the Lord. Anything put before God is a sin, and this was the Galatians way of drawing back to a sinful lifestyle by putting their faith in the law.
Then the other thing it still seems that some do not understand is that we by ourselves can not uphold the standards of God for us, yet by being born again of the Spirit we are not alone. We now have the Holy Spirit in us guiding, helping, and giving us all knowledge we seek. If you put your full trust and focus on Him then you will be guided to uphold His standards, as this is how we know the true born again believers from those who are not. By the fruits of the Spirit that will be present within their lives shows a true faith, as the bible clearly shows that these fruits will be evident in all born again believers in Christ. No fruit, no Holy Spirit, no Christ abiding in you = No salvation......

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again you fail to understand that every place the word save or saved is used does not always apply unto soul salvation......you will find this out one day...albeit too late....and no matter how you slice and dice you teach a works based salvation of the which the bible does not teach.......

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE......NO WORKS or WATER here...........


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He gave his unique Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, or WATER required]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

(as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Please stop bringing up the law Dcon as I am not in support of the Mosaic laws, and do not believe we are to uphold all of them. So your debate back against me by using these scriptures is off the mark, because I am not speaking of the 613 Mosaic laws.

Once again this is the problem that some have when it comes to the word law and how it is used within the NT because some just take and make the one word do away with all standards. Yet starting with the gospel books with the words of the Lord going all the way through the epistles, and Paul in his giving the meat give multiple standards that will be very evident in a born again believers life.

Lord Jesus starts off with these standards;

Repentance, baptism / born again, confession, forgiveness, love and mercy

The bible makes it clear without keeping these teachings of the Lord which are the milk of the word their is not salvation, for you are not abiding in Christ if you deny to keep His teachings.

Then Jesus says this to the Apostles;

John 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Jesus said they could not bear the rest He had to say to them because they were still struggling with the milk and were not ready for the meat. For He says we can not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God (Matthew 4:4). He charged Paul to bring that meat of the word, which is why Paul's epistles where written to other fellow believers and not unbelievers. Because Paul made an emphasis to make sure they were walking properly in the faith, for our walk does matter when it comes to salvation rather one believes it or not. Because you can not walk contrary to His teachings and still end up with salvation...........


It amazes me that so many who speak and support OSAS or you can not lose salvation are quick to take and condemn others in their responses to those others. When they are throwing their whole belief system out the window by doing so, because they throw away this scripture from Paul even though they only use half of it.


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[just-me]

Please stop bringing up the law Dcon as I am not in support of the Mosaic laws, and do not believe we are to uphold all of them. So your debate back against me by using these scriptures is off the mark, because I am not speaking of the 613 Mosaic laws.

In your opinion who gave the law to Moses? God the Father or Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10)

 

[michael56]

Well if you call me a leagist because I uphold the same standards that Paul even preached on then well be it, because it was Paul who gave the meat of the word and he is the one who said these standards still apply for salvation. A person can not walk in the flesh (sins) and walk in the Spirit both and get salvation.
The next thing is about the Galatians, as you do not realize that by going back to being justified by the law was a sin because they put the law before the Lord. Anything put before God is a sin, and this was the Galatians way of drawing back to a sinful lifestyle by putting their faith in the law.
Then the other thing it still seems that some do not understand is that we by ourselves can not uphold the standards of God for us, yet by being born again of the Spirit we are not alone. We now have the Holy Spirit in us guiding, helping, and giving us all knowledge we seek. If you put your full trust and focus on Him then you will be guided to uphold His standards, as this is how we know the true born again believers from those who are not. By the fruits of the Spirit that will be present within their lives shows a true faith, as the bible clearly shows that these fruits will be evident in all born again believers in Christ. No fruit, no Holy Spirit, no Christ abiding in you = No salvation......

You can only have one bottom line before God, not two! King David's bottom line was trusting in God's unfailing love for him, that is mine also. Would you agree it should be every Christians bottom line, or is there another in your view?

 

[kennethcadwell]

In your opinion who gave the law to Moses? God the Father or Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

Here is the thing that people do not want to look at and understand, and that is that under each covenant that God made including the new covenant of grace by obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ was changes made in each one.

God did give the laws to Moses to write down, and the 10 main moral commands were given and written by God Himself.
Our God through the Lord Jesus Christ gave us the two main commands we are still to obey and follow, and by those two fall and are upheld the other moral commands of God and the rest of the Lords teachings from the gospel books as Paul shows clearly in Romans 13:9-10.
Then from God through the Holy Spirit to the Apostles show us in Acts 15:20,29 what standards from the old laws still apply to us under the new covenant, but the rest of the written ordinances do not apply. People seem to have a hard time dividing the moral law from the written ordinance of the laws, but the bible does this and so did the Jews on how the law was given. The 10 commandments were always considered Gods' moral laws, and only the written form came with ordinances within the Mosaic laws for breaking any one of the 10 carried a death penalty. We are not held to those ordinances of punishments, sacrifices, cleansing, and foods any more or to keep all the Mosaic laws. We are called through the Spirit to uphold the moral aspect of the law which God has written in our hearts and on our minds, and to keep all the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.........

 

[kennethcadwell]

You can only have one bottom line before God, not two! King David's bottom line was trusting in God's unfailing love for him, that is mine also. Would you agree it should be every Christians bottom line, or is there another in your view?

Yes but that unfailing love for Him that will come by way of the fruits of the Holy Spirit abiding within a born again believer the bible makes clear in the words of Paul that it will have us uphold all the teaching and commandments given by the Lord.

I trust in our Lord Jesus Christ which is why I will constantly defend all that He said, and not sit back and let others take away from His teachings and say not needed for salvation. When His whole concept in teaching was about salvation through Him, and that those who do not do as He says are not truly His.

For Jesus is the one that said His sheep are those who hear His voice, come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said. Yet some want to still cancel off the doing part, and say they have salvation already when the bible teachings say we have mental assurance of receiving it right now.

 

[michael56]

Yes but that unfailing love for Him that will come by way of the fruits of the Holy Spirit abiding within a born again believer the bible makes clear in the words of Paul that it will have us uphold all the teaching and commandments given by the Lord.

I trust in our Lord Jesus Christ which is why I will constantly defend all that He said, and not sit back and let others take away from His teachings and say not needed for salvation. When His whole concept in teaching was about salvation through Him, and that those who do not do as He says are not truly His.

For Jesus is the one that said His sheep are those who hear His voice, come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said. Yet some want to still cancel off the doing part, and say they have salvation already when the bible teachings say we have mental assurance of receiving it right now.

So God's unfailing love is not your bottom line, it is your ability to obey literal commandments

 

[michael56]

Yes but that unfailing love for Him that will come by way of the fruits of the Holy Spirit abiding within a born again believer the bible makes clear in the words of Paul that it will have us uphold all the teaching and commandments given by the Lord.

I trust in our Lord Jesus Christ which is why I will constantly defend all that He said, and not sit back and let others take away from His teachings and say not needed for salvation. When His whole concept in teaching was about salvation through Him, and that those who do not do as He says are not truly His.

For Jesus is the one that said His sheep are those who hear His voice, come to Him, hear what He says, and then goes and does what He said. Yet some want to still cancel off the doing part, and say they have salvation already when the bible teachings say we have mental assurance of receiving it right now.

A genuine question. Why would you depend on God's unfailing love if you are obeying all of Christ's commandments? Surely you would not depend on that unfailing love unless you were not keeping them all. But if you do not keep them all, you fail according to the above emboldened to show the fruits of the spirit that is necessary to have that unfailing love.
I say this sincerely, it seems a contradiction to me.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So God's unfailing love is not your bottom line, it is your ability to obey literal commandments

That is not what I said........

The thing that people still do not understand is that God's love is unfailing as His grace will always be there for us to partake of through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

The issue that some do not realize is they just look at it from that point of view, and do not realize the bible says by our actions/works/deeds we can fail Him and deny Him by those actions. And those who deny Him in how they walk in life do not end up with salvation, as they are disobedient to the faith and Lord Jesus says clearly in Luke 12 those who are disobedient will be appointed a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers. One can not have love and faith in the Lord and continue to also be disobedient to His teachings and commands.

Lord Jesus said clearly if you love Him you will keep His commands, and those who do not love Him will not keep His teachings and commands. (John 14:15, John 14:24)

 

[michael56]

That is not what I said........

The thing that people still do not understand is that God's love is unfailing as His grace will always be there for us to partake of through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

The issue that some do not realize is they just look at it from that point of view, and do not realize the bible says by our actions/works/deeds we can fail Him and deny Him by those actions. And those who deny Him in how they walk in life do not end up with salvation, as they are disobedient to the faith and Lord Jesus says clearly in Luke 12 those who are disobedient will be appointed a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers. One can not have love and faith in the Lord and continue to also be disobedient to His teachings and commands.

Lord Jesus said clearly if you love Him you will keep His commands, and those who do not love Him will not keep His teachings and commands. (John 14:15, John 14:24)

Therefore your hope of Heaven, your right standing before God is dependant on obedience to the law, there is no way round that from what you write

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Yes but that unfailing love for Him that will come by way of the fruits of the Holy Spirit abiding within a born again believer the bible makes clear in the words of Paul that it will have us uphold all the teaching and commandments given by the Lord.

Didn't Paul say against such things ("the fruits of the Spirit") there is no law? Do you have a verse that states the contrary brother Kenneth? Doesn't brother Paul's epistle to the Romans say "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

A genuine question. Why would you depend on God's unfailing love if you are obeying all of Christ's commandments? Surely you would not depend on that unfailing love unless you were not keeping them all. But if you do not keep them all, you fail according to the above emboldened to show the fruits of the spirit that is necessary to have that unfailing love.
I say this sincerely, it seems a contradiction to me.

By ourselves we can not keep them all that is emphasized in scripture, but it is also emphasized in scripture that being born again and having the Holy Spirit of Christ abiding in us we will uphold His commandments for it is His working in and through us that leads us in His righteousness.
I do not depend on my own works for anything, but I do defend the works of the Spirit that come through the His fruits that will be present in all born again believers.

Apostle John says to test all spirits that come to you, because if it is not leading you to walk in love and obedience then the spirit is not from God. 1 John chapters 2-4 he breaks it down how a believer can truly know if they are born again and headed to salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. The only way you get salvation is if the Lord is abiding in you from being born again, and you follow that guidance of His Holy Spirit within you.

Every time a believer sins they have grieved the Holy Spirit and taken themselves out of fellowship with Him, from here one either has to repent/confess that sin to be forgiven or they can chose to do as the Galatians did or like Paul and James says continue to give into that sin and let it become their master again which will lead to death and not eternal life for that person will have fallen from grace and Christ remission become of no affect to them for turning away from God.

 

[michael56]

By ourselves we can not keep them all that is emphasized in scripture, but it is also emphasized in scripture that being born again and having the Holy Spirit of Christ abiding in us we will uphold His commandments for it is His working in and through us that leads us in His righteousness.
I do not depend on my own works for anything, but I do defend the works of the Spirit that come through the His fruits that will be present in all born again believers.

Apostle John says to test all spirits that come to you, because if it is not leading you to walk in love and obedience then the spirit is not from God. 1 John chapters 2-4 he breaks it down how a believer can truly know if they are born again and headed to salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. The only way you get salvation is if the Lord is abiding in you from being born again, and you follow that guidance of His Holy Spirit within you.

Every time a believer sins they have grieved the Holy Spirit and taken themselves out of fellowship with Him, from here one either has to repent/confess that sin to be forgiven or they can chose to do as the Galatians did or like Paul and James says continue to give into that sin and let it become their master again which will lead to death and not eternal life for that person will have fallen from grace and Christ remission become of no affect to them for turning away from God.

Do we walk in love if we tell people they must obey all of Christ's literal commands in order have God's unfailing love, if we cannot ourselves obey all of Christ's commands?
Would that not be crushing people with demands we ourselves cannot/do not meet?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Didn't Paul say against such things ("the fruits of the Spirit") there is no law? Do you have a verse that states the contrary brother Kenneth? Doesn't brother Paul's epistle to the Romans say "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." ?

Yes Paul did say if you walk in the Spirit there is no law.
That is because by walking in Spirit and the fruits thereof there would be no need for the law because the fruits of the Spirit would not lead a person to walk in uncleanness. The law is of no affect to those who are in the Spirit because love does no wrong, and therefore would not have one live a sinful lifestyle.

Apostle Paul also stated the law is still in affect to those who continue to transgress it, the difference is now that because there is no more need for a sacrifice for those sins because the Lord became that perfect sacrifice once and for all. Nobody no longer needs to fear facing the death penalty in the flesh for breaking the laws, but that those who continue to sin willfully and deliberately after receiving the truth will face the second death in the lake of fire.

Christ is the end of the law because by abiding in Christ which would have one walk in the Spirit will produce the fruit thereof, and no fruit of the Spirit will have one walk against His moral commands.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do we walk in love if we tell people they must obey all of Christ's literal commands in order have God's unfailing love, if we cannot ourselves obey all of Christ's commands?
Would that not be crushing people with demands we ourselves cannot/do not meet?

You still are thinking that you are by yourself in that kind of thinking though.
We are to show how God's unfailing love will help them and guide them through all things, and to show through love that by giving yourself fully over to Him will keep you in His grace.

Even Paul says more than once that we have to keep ourselves in His grace/kindness to receive eternal life.
How does one keep themselves in the grace of God ? That is by continuing to have faith in the Lord Jesus and showing that faith by obeying and keeping His commands/teachings.
Lord Jesus and Paul both say that not all who profess Jesus as their Lord will get eternal life, because there will be those who profess Him as Lord but then continue to live a sinful lifestyle (Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-27, Titus 1:16).

 

[michael56]

You still are thinking that you are by yourself in that kind of thinking though.
We are to show how God's unfailing love will help them and guide them through all things, and to show through love that by giving yourself fully over to Him will keep you in His grace.

Even Paul says more than once that we have to keep ourselves in His grace/kindness to receive eternal life.
How does one keep themselves in the grace of God ? That is by continuing to have faith in the Lord Jesus and showing that faith by obeying and keeping His commands/teachings.
Lord Jesus and Paul both say that not all who profess Jesus as their Lord will get eternal life, because there will be those who profess Him as Lord but then continue to live a sinful lifestyle (Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-27, Titus 1:16).

According to what you write, I have never yet met anyone in the flesh who will attain to Heaven, for I have met no one in the flesh who has tried to obey all of Christ's literal commands. I have met a lot of people though who reel off nice sounding statements. The reality though is very different.
I have attended churches for over 35 years

 

[kennethcadwell]

According to what you write, I have never yet met anyone in the flesh who will attain to Heaven, for I have met no one in the flesh who has tried to obey all of Christ's literal commands. I have met a lot of people though who reel off nice sounding statements. The reality though is very different.
I have attended churches for over 35 years

Well I would have to say I don't know what churches you have been to, but I have been to and in Baptist, Catholic, Evangelist, and even talked to others from other denominations. They all preached and taught that the 10 commandments of God still apply today and are upheld by born again believers. I only heard of people teaching this way that the 10 commandments don't apply, and it mainly came from those who were preaching the major wake up call to all the churches back in the 80's because of the false teaching going around saying a person could continue to live however they want which is completely contrary to the bible.
The bible says we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, yet some will still tell you doing certain things like obeying commands is still impossible. Yet the Apostle John says we will not look on His commands as burdensome, because with the Holy Spirit we have all the help and guidance we need to be obedient.
I don't understand why people want to do away with the being obedient when it comes to salvation, as it is all over the bible that speaks of obedience. I posted about a month ago on one blog 100 scriptures that speak of the importance of obedience in a believers life.

Then the other thing is that the bible places disobedience as a sin of unbelief..................................

 

[michael56]

Well I would have to say I don't know what churches you have been to, but I have been to and in Baptist, Catholic, Evangelist, and even talked to others from other denominations. They all preached and taught that the 10 commandments of God still apply today and are upheld by born again believers. I only heard of people teaching this way that the 10 commandments don't apply, and it mainly came from those who were preaching the major wake up call to all the churches back in the 80's because of the false teaching going around saying a person could continue to live however they want which is completely contrary to the bible.
The bible says we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, yet some will still tell you doing certain things like obeying commands is still impossible. Yet the Apostle John says we will not look on His commands as burdensome, because with the Holy Spirit we have all the help and guidance we need to be obedient.
I don't understand why people want to do away with the being obedient when it comes to salvation, as it is all over the bible that speaks of obedience. I posted about a month ago on one blog 100 scriptures that speak of the importance of obedience in a believers life.

Then the other thing is that the bible places disobedience as a sin of unbelief..................................

I have been to Baptist, Pentecostal/charismatic churches mostly, but also C of E. I have never once, in 35 years at those churches met anyone who has consciously trued to obey each and every literal command of Christ. But I have heard some great sounding statements reeled off almost pat.
I have heard many stress how well you must live your life, but sadly, only in the church I now attend does the minister plainly state Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness. He states no matter how hard you try you cannot obey the whole law. He also states the Christian is assured of Heaven because of what Christ did for them at Calvary
It is very different from other churches I have been to that stressed what the individual must do to attain. People at the church I am now at have come off drugs, been released from alcohol addiction, the better off and the poorer folk are at ease with each other and get on well. The academically gifted, sit next to those who are not so blessed with such qualities.
Yet in the many churches I attended where it was stressed how well the individual must live according to the letter I didn't see this so much
From my experience, the Gospel message is better reflected in peoples lives when the preaching emphasises the security of the individual with God because of what Christ has done for them, not when the emphasis is on what the individual must do to attain Heaven

 

[kennethcadwell]

I have been to Baptist, Pentecostal/charismatic churches mostly, but also C of E. I have never once, in 35 years at those churches met anyone who has consciously trued to obey each and every literal command of Christ. But I have heard some great sounding statements reeled off almost pat.
I have heard many stress how well you must live your life, but sadly, only in the church I now attend does the minister plainly state Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness. He states no matter how hard you try you cannot obey the whole law. He also states the Christian is assured of Heaven because of what Christ did for them at Calvary
It is very different from other churches I have been to that stressed what the individual must do to attain. People at the church I am now at have come off drugs, been released from alcohol addiction, the better off and the poorer folk are at ease with each other and get on well. The academically gifted, sit next to those who are not so blessed with such qualities.
Yet in the many churches I attended where it was stressed how well the individual must live according to the letter I didn't see this so much
From my experience, the Gospel message is better reflected in peoples lives when the preaching emphasises the security of the individual with God because of what Christ has done for them, not when the emphasis is on what the individual must do to attain Heaven

The problem with that watered back way of teaching though is that if you leave it at just Christ crucifixion on the cross, then that leads to what some churches did back in the 70's and 80's telling people they can live however they want.

Nowhere in the bible does it teach one can live however they want, this false teaching was fought hard in the late 80's and early 90's. I have seen especially since coming on this site that there is still a remnant stuck in this false teaching.
The bible from Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the book of Hebrews all state that Jesus one time crucifixion for sins is all that is need to give remission to our sins. From here though is where people start to leave things out, as the bible says how we receive that remission;

Belief established from hearing the word, repenting of our sins, being baptized (born again) in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and to walk in the Spirit. Forgiving others, keeping your confession in Him, and producing good fruit (works).

Matthew 25 gives three parables and in each one it shows those who believe, but only those who believe and do get eternal life. Those who hear only and do not do the bible calls deceived......


Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[michael56]

The problem with that watered back way of teaching though is that if you leave it at just Christ crucifixion on the cross, then that leads to what some churches did back in the 70's and 80's telling people they can live however they want.

Nowhere in the bible does it teach one can live however they want, this false teaching was fought hard in the late 80's and early 90's. I have seen especially since coming on this site that there is still a remnant stuck in this false teaching.
The bible from Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the book of Hebrews all state that Jesus one time crucifixion for sins is all that is need to give remission to our sins. From here though is where people start to leave things out, as the bible says how we receive that remission;

Belief established from hearing the word, repenting of our sins, being baptized (born again) in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and to walk in the Spirit. Forgiving others, keeping your confession in Him, and producing good fruit (works).

Matthew 25 gives three parables and in each one it shows those who believe, but only those who believe and do get eternal life. Those who hear only and do not do the bible calls deceived......


Luke 6:46-49


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I have never been to any church that gives the impression you can act as you like as long as you believe Jesus died for you. I have been to a lot of churches, but never one that came close to preaching that, or inferring it. In the church I spent my youth in, they relentlessly preached a very high standard indeed as to how you must live, the inference was ,if it was not attained to your salvation was in jeapordy. I simply became a worse sinner, and the core of the church came from the more affluent half of society and the more academically gifted half also.

Grace is a hard thing for most to accept it seems. Only when a person knows Christ paid the price of all their sins at Calvary, past, present and future can they truly see great victory over sin. It is not a license to sin, for the new covenant hinges on two core facts, not one. In the church of my youth, none of this was explained, nor did they tell us you are not under la law of righteousness, and that included the Ten Commandments.
I have found the most dangerous churches are ones that most stress Holy living but do not fully and forthrightly preach the grace of the Bible. They are mainly filled with the better off financially, and the more academically gifted. Why is that? Because these people on the whole(though not always) come from more loving, secure homes. Therefore, statistically they are less likely(though not always) to use foul language, have extra marital affairs, smoke or get drunk.
You see Kenneth, what you really believe is your sin is excusable as you do not commit what you consider ''unacceptable sins'' Therefore on that basis you will attain Heaven. That is what the vast majority of church goers believe, and is why we have a watered down version of the Gospel message that leaves many churches half empty and with people predominantly from one side of society