The Law Debacle Resolved

[zzz98]

So do you think once a person is born again they will do nothing? No

With the salvation we already have, God is busy at work .

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

No, I think others are saying just do nothing since you are saved. I'm sorry my analogies were terrible and seemed to say Salvation is earned. I know the Body of Christ is likened to a human body. Many parts, many functions, yet one body. I suppose the function of the part is the work it does.

Does this make sense?

If that part doesn't function ( work) the body is weakened

 

[crossnote]

No, I think others are saying just do nothing since you are saved. I'm sorry my analogies were terrible and seemed to say Salvation is earned. I know the Body of Christ is likened to a human body. Many parts, many functions, yet one body. I suppose the function of the part is the work it does.

Does this make sense?

If that part doesn't function ( work) the body is weakened

it makes sense but I think some are saying 'we can do nothing but trust Jesus to get saved'...I don't know of any saying 'now that we are saved, we do nothing' .

 

[stonesoffire]

Do what Jesus teaches and did.



Above is what is given in the OP as the resolving of the grace and obedience-grace only disputing. I have changed it from law-grace because detractors keep reading it as being under the law. It should make no difference since obedience is doing what God says, not what traditions and doctrines of man say.

My point in this post is that even with this simple solution there are people who hate obedience so much they will distort the meaning of the resolution.

If it is wrong to suffer with Christ, then I am wrong, and all who share in His Example by trying to be as much as He was walking the earth as is possible..

Stop..........all who do this, telling the obedient children to be disobedient for they all share the righteousness of God through the gift of faith.

i am way back yet in posts, not caught up to the last, but I wanted to respond to this one.

No one is saying to disobey what God says. The difference that I see is what power are we walking now in? Our own strength of obedience to a set of rules given to Moses? Or do we now hear a Voice within us saying this is the way we should go? And I'm speaking of Holy Spirit here just for clarity.

Jesus told us we must be born again. Peter said, repent and be baptized for the remission of sin and receive the gift of Holy Spirit. Jesus said to wait on the power to His disciples.

Have you all obeyed His Word?

Another problem....are we born again as babes? Or full grown men of God? Do we all have good teachers to bring us up in the faith?

And last but certainly not least...is God faithful to finish what only He inititiated in the beginning?

Do you study the scriptures for yourselves including checking what the words of Christianity mean?

 

[stonesoffire]

Aramaic Bible in Plain English​

1Or do you not know, my brethren, for I speak to those who know The Written Law, that The Written Law has authority over a man as long as he lives, 2As a woman is bound by the law to her lord as long as he lives? But if her husband is dead, she has been freed from The Written Law of her husband. 3But if while her lord lives, she shall leave for another man, she becomes an adulteress to him, but if her lord should die, she has been freed from The Written Law, and she is not an adulteress if another man should have her.4And now, my brethren, you also have died to The Written Law with the body of The Messiah that you would be for another, The One who arose from the dead, that you would yield fruit to God. 5When we were in the flesh, the diseases of sin, which are by The Written Law, worked diligently in the members that we might yield fruit to death. 6But now we have been exempted from The Written Law, and we are dead to that which had controlled us, so that we shall serve from now on in the newness of The Spirit and not in the Old Order Scriptures.*
7What therefore shall we say? Is The Written Law sin? God forbid! But I would not have learned sin except by The Written Law, for I would not have known lust, if The Written Law had not said, "Do not lust." 8In this commandment sin found for itself an occasion and developed in me every lust, for without The Written Law, sin was dead. 9But I was alive without The Written Law at first, but when the commandment came, sin lived, and I died. 10And I found that commandment of life to be for death. 11For sin, in the occasion that it found for itself, seduced me by the commandment, and killed me with it. 12The Written Law therefore is holy and the commandment is holy, just and good.
13Was the good therefore death to me? God forbid! But sin, that it might appear to be sin, perfected death in me by the means of the good, that sin would be all the more condemned *by the commandment.
14For we know that The Written Law is spiritual but I am carnal and I am sold to sin. 15For that which I committed I did not understand, neither was it anything that I chose, but I was doing what I hated. 16And if I did what I did not choose, I testify of The Written Law that it is excellent. 17But now it is not I who am committing this, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that good does not dwell within me, (but this is in my flesh), for it is easy for me to delight in the good, but I am unable to perform it. 19It was not the good that I wanted that I did, but the evil that I did not want to do, that I did. 20And if I did the thing that I did not want, it was not I doing it, but sin that dwelt within me.
21I find, therefore, a law agreeing with my conscience which wants to do good, because evil is near me. 22For I rejoice in the law of God in the inner person. 23But I saw another law in my members that makes war against the law of my conscience and takes me captive to the law of sin that is in my members. 24I am a wretched man. Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25I thank God by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah. Now therefore, I am a Servant of The Law of God in my conscience, but in my flesh, I am a Servant of the law of sin.

The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs

perhaps this version will help?​

 

[stonesoffire]

If we are born from above, we are no longer carnal men or women. We are Spiritual beings. However, we may have carnal understanding, so as newborn babes in Christ, we need the milk of the Word.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes the events had to go down as was foretold by the prophets. That’s settled.
Now, just moving into the realm of speculation, what would have transpired if the vast majority of Jews including their leaders had submitted themselves to their true Messiah Yeshua? The death of Christ would not have happened, the Kingdom set up in Israel, immediate Millennium and no mystery called the Church...the Body of Christ, no rapture, etc.
The death of Christ brought in a whole new twist to things although foretold.

I like this idea, asking what if. As a naive idealist it is like walking into a conference of arms dealers and saying, why don't we just give up making weapons and just hold hands and hug each other. When they were all kids this might have been possible, but with all the crap in their lives, the exit door would open and out you would fly. The rulers were going to kill Jesus because truth and reality would have overthrown them with all the hidden sin, and they were not just going to give it all up because some nice pacifist dropped on their door step. They killed people for saying less. And so what if he was God, he just had to get in the queue like everybody else.

 

[crossnote]

I like this idea, asking what if. As a naive idealist it is like walking into a conference of arms dealers and saying, why don't we just give up making weapons and just hold hands and hug each other. When they were all kids this might have been possible, but with all the crap in their lives, the exit door would open and out you would fly. The rulers were going to kill Jesus because truth and reality would have overthrown them with all the hidden sin, and they were not just going to give it all up because some nice pacifist dropped on their door step. They killed people for saying less. And so what if he was God, he just had to get in the queue like everybody else.

good, I'll get back to Scripture and hopefully you do the same.

 

[PeterJens]

hmm, a baptist that teaches one can lose the free gift of eternal life.

What group of baptists would this be? I grew up a baptist and never thought or was taught this, but once. and that pastor did not last long.

I got to laugh. Let me translate OSAS. If God predestined you from the beginning to time to be saved you can never leave Gods hand. If you appear to be saved and then fall away, you were never saved in the first place.

This is called retrospective theology, fitting the situation after the events.

As I have got older I am aware nothing is clear cut, and some very faithful people, change of circumstance they go off the rails. Or whole churches change their positions because there is stronger loyalty to the leader, pastor than to the Lord.

So from a human perspective, I see people come to the Lord, and then fade away. Who am I to say where they stand?
I am not an Armenian, falling in and out of the kingdom based on behaviour or situation.

For me the most interesting case is Judas. A chosen disciple, who appeared to follow, to be like them all.

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Luke 22:3

As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
John 13:27

Was Judas born again? Did he hand himself over to Satan? He became a traitor, but the disciples called him their friend up to that time, which is why they did not believe any of them could do such a thing.

Do you think Judas will be in heaven because OSAS? I do not think so. But I do not claim to know such things, I just say, I accept those who walk with the Lord, and pray for those who do not.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus already knew who was going to betray him;
that is why he said, “All of you, except one, are clean.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I got to laugh. Let me translate OSAS. If God predestined you from the beginning to time to be saved you can never leave Gods hand. If you appear to be saved and then fall away, you were never saved in the first place.

Thats a false premise. And not a very good one even. Why is it when one tries to reject a doctrinal belief, they have to go by what is taught in many churches who are appose to said doctrine, instead of actually looking up what the thing actually and what those who actually place their FAITH in look to as the foundation, and not look to a church which is apposed to it.

In the world of CC, that is called a straw man argument, and is meaningless.

This is called retrospective theology, fitting the situation after the events.

So you would rather make a judgment based on a false premise to begin with and not actually study to get the truth behind what we believe.

You would rather make it a Calvin vs Armenian argument. Been there done that so many times, I have lost count, So hey, Would you like to know why we base our security and belief in Christ as eternal and not conditional? or keep this an Armenian vs Calvin debate?

As I have got older I am aware nothing is clear cut, and some very faithful people, change of circumstance they go off the rails. Or whole churches change their positions because there is stronger loyalty to the leader, pastor than to the Lord.

So from a human perspective, I see people come to the Lord, and then fade away. Who am I to say where they stand?
I am not an Armenian, falling in and out of the kingdom based on behaviour or situation.

For me the most interesting case is Judas. A chosen disciple, who appeared to follow, to be like them all.

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Luke 22:3

As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
John 13:27

Was Judas born again? Did he hand himself over to Satan? He became a traitor, but the disciples called him their friend up to that time, which is why they did not believe any of them could do such a thing.

Do you think Judas will be in heaven because OSAS? I do not think so. But I do not claim to know such things, I just say, I accept those who walk with the Lord, and pray for those who do not.

Judas.

A thief from the beginning
A traitor (from the begining)
A son of perdition (funny how the antichrist is also given this name)
A one who was never clean (in Jesus own words)
One who never believed (again in jesus own words)

Did he have OSAS? No,

and this is a pour argument to try to discredit eternal security in Christ.

Again, What church do you go to. Baptists believe in eternal security (although some can get legalistic in their thinking) I am just curious.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus already knew who was going to betray him;
that is why he said, “All of you, except one, are clean.”

Amen sis.. Judas represent many in the church who never made an actual profession of Christ, and repented. They play the game, look like a christian, but have never been born of God, or cleansed by the blood.

 

[PeterJens]

good, I'll get back to Scripture and hopefully you do the same.

Crossnote - one small point. A good test of good theology or morality is to see how many variations could be read into a sentence to get a different meaning from the words. Some sentences are so open ended, it is up to the reader to take it whatever way you like.

"Ask and it will be done for you." Now this could mean you get whatever the person God has. "I want the world"
It could mean, if you are in the area, come and have a chat, I am all ears.

So immediately the phrase means nothing if the gap between possible outcomes is too large.
Theology works the same way. I can say God is graceful. But without context of the action, or way this is expressed, I have no clue what this means.

God is full of grace. This could mean I can do anything, and it does not matter, or I can be quickly forgiven if I set things right quickly or I will be given bags of time to sort things out, before it has to be set right, or everything will sort out, no judgement, no reconning, only a rap on the knuckles.

This is why scripture can be both flattery and too harsh, violent or too kind, depending how you present it.

So getting back to scripture is only part of the show, presenting it fairly in the light of revelation to the soul through Jesus is where I want to be, I hope you likewise.

 

[KennethC]

Sorry, I see the Gospel of grace laid out clearly in John and the Epistles, but the Gospel of the Kingdom laid out in Mt, Mk, Lu.
Although the Gospel was enacted in all 4 Gospels and explained in the Epistles.
You keep assuming that what Jesus taught His Apostles for forty days AFTER His resurrection was NOT what they taught in their Epistles.
And if it was, then salvation is a work of God from beginning to end.

I am not assuming nothing and your own response shows something wrong, as you speak of two separate gospels....There is no such thing as two separate gospels, there is only one !!!

I never said what Jesus taught after the resurrection was not what they taught in the epistles, so I don't know where you get that from because I have always said all that Jesus taught and commanded was upheld and expounded on in the epistles.

The only denying is coming form those who think what Jesus said before His death and resurrection is not for us, that is a lie that if being taught this need to move away from these teachers who are saying that because the Apostles expounded on all that Jesus taught !!!

 

[KennethC]

No, I think others are saying just do nothing since you are saved. I'm sorry my analogies were terrible and seemed to say Salvation is earned. I know the Body of Christ is likened to a human body. Many parts, many functions, yet one body. I suppose the function of the part is the work it does.

Does this make sense?

If that part doesn't function ( work) the body is weakened

Yes it makes since just like how the bible shows that works/actions one does is proof that they are saved, they are not what gets/earns the salvation or maintains it, but they are the proof.

There can be no Holy Spirit in a person without the working power of Him being evident in them as the bible shows, as He is not inactive in our lives.

 

[RickyZ]

Yes it makes since just like how the bible shows that works/actions one does is proof that they are saved, they are not what gets/earns the salvation or maintains it, but they are the proof.

And therein lies the resolution to the question... No one is saved by works, but their works will show whether they are truly saved.

 

[KennethC]

And therein lies the resolution to the question... No one is saved by works, but their works will show whether they are truly saved.

Yes but some do not even like that explanation as they try to say we can not tell the difference between those who are saved and those who are not. If this is true what they say then why does our Lord say we will know them by their fruit ???

Because those with the Holy Spirit will be noticeable apart from those who do not by their actions !!!

 

[PeterJens]

Thats a false premise. And not a very good one even.

Most christians I have met are neither armenian or calvinists. Can you cope with that or are we all now not saved?
I know how varied the different options are so telling me yours or saying I put an extreme straw man, is just my view on claiming to know Gods heart on this.

Do we as independent baptists all believe in OSAS? No. A baptist is called a baptist for commitment to a certain type of self government and full immersion baptism. We have members who are more brethren, some anglican, some liberal or universalist, some very fundamentalist, some very charismatic, some conservative. I am sure this maybe too open for you, but hey, this is the body of Christ.

I wonder when you start saying I must be lying, because it appears you do not believe I go to a baptist church.
It is because this is the UK and not texas.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes but some do not even like that explanation as they try to say we can not tell the difference between those who are saved and those who are not. If this is true what they say then why does our Lord say we will know them by their fruit ???

Because those with the Holy Spirit will be noticeable apart from those who do not by their actions !!!

Sarcasm is an interesting point. I have met people who would rip people to shreds, and use put downs, be condescending, hurtful, manipulative etc.

By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matt 7:16

After meeting various people, I recognise this emotional reality. If one is an aggressive combative individual it is unlikely good fruit is going to be found among such reactions.

There are certain mega church pastors who dominated their church like this, so not suprisingly I wonder about their spirituality and teaching.

 

[hopesprings]

Is it resolved yet?
..oh...not yet eh...
I'll come back later....

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote - one small point. A good test of good theology or morality is to see how many variations could be read into a sentence to get a different meaning from the words. Some sentences are so open ended, it is up to the reader to take it whatever way you like.

"Ask and it will be done for you." Now this could mean you get whatever the person God has. "I want the world"
It could mean, if you are in the area, come and have a chat, I am all ears.

So immediately the phrase means nothing if the gap between possible outcomes is too large.
Theology works the same way. I can say God is graceful. But without context of the action, or way this is expressed, I have no clue what this means.

God is full of grace. This could mean I can do anything, and it does not matter, or I can be quickly forgiven if I set things right quickly or I will be given bags of time to sort things out, before it has to be set right, or everything will sort out, no judgement, no reconning, only a rap on the knuckles.

This is why scripture can be both flattery and too harsh, violent or too kind, depending how you present it.

So getting back to scripture is only part of the show, presenting it fairly in the light of revelation to the soul through Jesus is where I want to be, I hope you likewise.

Scripture is still the foundation, and should be in your learning and teaching. The Holy Spirit works in conjunction with His Word.