The Law Debacle Resolved
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Do what Jesus teaches and did.
Above is what is given in the OP as the resolving of the grace and obedience-grace only disputing. I have changed it from law-grace because detractors keep reading it as being under the law. It should make no difference since obedience is doing what God says, not what traditions and doctrines of man say.
My point in this post is that even with this simple solution there are people who hate obedience so much they will distort the meaning of the resolution.
If it is wrong to suffer with Christ, then I am wrong, and all who share in His Example by trying to be as much as He was walking the earth as is possible..
Stop..........all who do this, telling the obedient children to be disobedient for they all share the righteousness of God through the gift of faith.
When you tell us "do what Jesus teaches and did" you are being disengenuous at worst and ambiguous at best.
Jesus fasted 40 days and nights, do you?
Jesus walked on water, do you?
Jesus gave sight to the blind and opened the ears of the deaf, do you?
Jesus rose people from the dead, do you?
No wonder your words ring hollow, they speak law without life.
Jesus fasted 40 days and nights, do you?
Jesus walked on water, do you?
Jesus gave sight to the blind and opened the ears of the deaf, do you?
Jesus rose people from the dead, do you?
No wonder your words ring hollow, they speak law without life.
Finding more fault in the teachings of the Word? I think you are the one being the fancy vocabulary......
I am finding it needful to resort to a colloquialism, get real, and do your nit-picking where it is truly necessary. We are expect to "pick up or cross" and follow Him. What will you ask next? "Where are the crosses?"
I am finding it needful to resort to a colloquialism, get real, and do your nit-picking where it is truly necessary. We are expect to "pick up or cross" and follow Him. What will you ask next? "Where are the crosses?"
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Hello JaumeJ,
To resolve the Grace Law controversy we have to go back to the source. St. Paul can be a little confusing. St. Paul seems to even contradict Jesus on the grace law issue. St. Peter warns us to be careful when reading St. Paul's writings. To tackle the grace law issue we have to take a look at, what seems to be, this direct opposition between Jesus and St. Paul.
[h=3]St. Paul says,[/h][h=3]
To resolve the Grace Law controversy we have to go back to the source. St. Paul can be a little confusing. St. Paul seems to even contradict Jesus on the grace law issue. St. Peter warns us to be careful when reading St. Paul's writings. To tackle the grace law issue we have to take a look at, what seems to be, this direct opposition between Jesus and St. Paul.
[h=3]St. Paul says,[/h][h=3]
[h=4]NAB2 GAL 2:15[/h]
[/h][h=3]Jesus says,[/h][h=3]We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.,
[h=4]NAB MAT 19:16[/h]
[/h]"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
[h=4]NAB JOH 5:27[/h]"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."
[h=4]NAB MAT 16:27[/h]The Son of Man will come with his angels. When He does, he will repay each man according to his conduct.
[h=4]NAB JOH 15:10[/h]"You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and live in his love."
[h=4]NAB MAT 25:31[/h] "And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'......Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'...
...'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
[h=4]NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.[/h][h=4]...'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Consider that our Lord's patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
[/h]We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.,
Uncerstand this please, nowhere in what I have posted in this thread or in any thread ever have I said we earn anything by works of th elaw, that is prverse. According to Paul the disciple of Jesus Christ, we are become "children of obedience," thus we are to obey under grace, never under the law, but we do obey Jesus Christ Who showed us how the law should be understood,. Anyone thinking this is being under the law does not understand the Word.
You and I share God's righteousness. Now, having made this declaration, I wonder who is going to protest. Oh that our Lord Jesus, Yeshua, will return and make all things perfect soon. Come dear Lord, come, we are waiting for You, amen.
"Being obedient to the word of God does not make you legalistic!" 
wise words from my mentor...
wise words from my mentor...
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Hello JaumeJ,
NAB MAT 16:27
The Son of Man will come with his angels. When He does, he will repay each man according to his conduct.
When Jesus teaches us that He will judge us into or out of heaven based on our conduct, do you think that this automatically means that we will 'earn' our salvation on our own? It does not. The only way to heaven is through the gracious gift of Christ's blood. Jesus knew this and expected His followers to understand this. So, Jesus gets down to business as to what He expects out of us, in order for us to go to heaven.
What do you think of stating it this way.
The only way to heaven is through the merciful blood of Jesus Christ. The reason Jesus judges us through His blood and into heaven is because we love God. And love for God is accomplished through obedience to God.
Faith in Jesus, or to believe in Jesus, means to do what He tells us to do. Jesus tells us to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven, through His blood. We should do, and tell other to do, what Jesus tells us to do, to go to heaven through Him.
God never changed but people are defending a changing god that were taught to them from a pulpit
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hello Angela, fellow baptist.
There are two trains of thought here. From the beginning of time God knows who are His and who he has called. The second is we have a choice, to walk or to fall. Or is this choice not choice at all, because once love has set to work on you, you can do no other. I do not know the answer. We could suggest there is actually nothing to defend because everything is predetermined.
On the human side all I see is the challenge, the challenge between failure of the heart to be righteous, walking after God as we should and our the glorious victory in Christ. Does not this tension challenge you, make you wonder, why?
Evangelical preaching, the 4 spiritual laws are all very compact. I have led people to the Lord through this very model. If later they fall away, you would say, "Oh, they were never born again." I cannot say such a thing, because I am not God.
I have had close friends who appeared to follow the Lord and now disown him.
I have people here who claim great spiritual authority yet deny love needs to rule in their hearts. I have met pastors who close the door on people, and shut out the good, because of fear that their gospel is not strong enough. I have friends who have gone 100% into the prosperity gospel and its hypocracy and would claim they have real spiritual inspiration. I cannot judge them, I do not know where they stand.
So guidance from the Holy Spirit is quiet and people can easily run over its reality into corruption and sin.
Now where am I you ask. I love the Lord, he is my saviour through the cross, I owe all to Him. The love He planted in me burns me night and day and I desire to see His Kingdom grow. That is my security. Am I born again? Yes the Lord has given me new life, remade and reformed all that I am. Now on this love our hope is secure, upon His presence we rise victorious. The funny thing is if OSAS is true, ie those who are predestined as always predestined you do not have to believe it to be true, because you will always be there. But this doctrine is as you say because of doubt. Does Jesus really love you, is it a reality?
But that is at the heart of new birth. Is love real or just a cynical joke? Just look at Jesus and what He did and there is your answer, everyday of every week, for all eternity. It is why he had to die, because it is the best statement of however crap it gets He is there. Not just a bit, but to the last drop of His blood.
Can you shut Jesus out? The answer is yes, it is possible. Or else where is free will. But in many of these battles, they are just that a tussel in a relationship.
So I am not interested in OSAS, or the security this idea brings, I am interested in do you know how much Jesus loves you? How much does love reign in your soul? Because Jesus always wants us to learn more, because love always does, it is that fantastic, life giving, our glorious Lord.
There are two trains of thought here. From the beginning of time God knows who are His and who he has called. The second is we have a choice, to walk or to fall. Or is this choice not choice at all, because once love has set to work on you, you can do no other. I do not know the answer. We could suggest there is actually nothing to defend because everything is predetermined.
On the human side all I see is the challenge, the challenge between failure of the heart to be righteous, walking after God as we should and our the glorious victory in Christ. Does not this tension challenge you, make you wonder, why?
Evangelical preaching, the 4 spiritual laws are all very compact. I have led people to the Lord through this very model. If later they fall away, you would say, "Oh, they were never born again." I cannot say such a thing, because I am not God.
I have had close friends who appeared to follow the Lord and now disown him.
I have people here who claim great spiritual authority yet deny love needs to rule in their hearts. I have met pastors who close the door on people, and shut out the good, because of fear that their gospel is not strong enough. I have friends who have gone 100% into the prosperity gospel and its hypocracy and would claim they have real spiritual inspiration. I cannot judge them, I do not know where they stand.
So guidance from the Holy Spirit is quiet and people can easily run over its reality into corruption and sin.
Now where am I you ask. I love the Lord, he is my saviour through the cross, I owe all to Him. The love He planted in me burns me night and day and I desire to see His Kingdom grow. That is my security. Am I born again? Yes the Lord has given me new life, remade and reformed all that I am. Now on this love our hope is secure, upon His presence we rise victorious. The funny thing is if OSAS is true, ie those who are predestined as always predestined you do not have to believe it to be true, because you will always be there. But this doctrine is as you say because of doubt. Does Jesus really love you, is it a reality?
But that is at the heart of new birth. Is love real or just a cynical joke? Just look at Jesus and what He did and there is your answer, everyday of every week, for all eternity. It is why he had to die, because it is the best statement of however crap it gets He is there. Not just a bit, but to the last drop of His blood.
Can you shut Jesus out? The answer is yes, it is possible. Or else where is free will. But in many of these battles, they are just that a tussel in a relationship.
So I am not interested in OSAS, or the security this idea brings, I am interested in do you know how much Jesus loves you? How much does love reign in your soul? Because Jesus always wants us to learn more, because love always does, it is that fantastic, life giving, our glorious Lord.
eIt is the love that makes the difference, there is a proverb that teaches us "money solves all." Understand the all is only in reference to anything the right amount of moeny is able to resolve. Money cannot save a soul or win affection...etc....but this latter should not need stessing to brethren in Jesus Christ.....
A
I never saw JaumeJ telling people not to follow Christ or His commandments. You are addressing the wrong crowd
I think JaumeJ and I are on the same page. I think we agree that people must obey Jesus to go to heaven through the blood of Jesus. We are just sorting out some minor terminologies. Sorry if it looked like I was doing otherwise.
Hey JaumeJ, I am with you in your struggle to tell people of the need to obey Jesus. To love Jesus is to obey Jesus. To sin is to hate Jesus. From reading your posts, I think you love Jesus with all your strength and are trying to teach others to love Jesus with all their strength.
[h=4]NAB2 1JO 5:3[/h]
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
[h=4]NAB2 JOH 14:15[/h]
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
[h=4]NAB JOH 15:22[/h]
"If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father."
Imagine this, God set a standard but His people cannot aspire to it.
So what do they say, scrap the standard, but keep the sign.
We are called to be the salt of the earth, a light to the world. Without standards we are nothing, just sinners fooling ourselves we have achieved anything, lost slaves to sin and not slaves to righteousness.
We need to obey Jesus, follow His commands.
Now anyone who calls this legalism is preaching against Jesus at a fundamental level. By obedience we learn Jesus's spiritual laws, how to love and exercise wisdom. To those who claim to be christians yet do not know this basic reality, you do not know properly who you follow.
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38
Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34
And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Matt 28:19-20
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18
Now if you claim to follow Jesus but do not obey Him or are a slave to righteousness, what are you?
You need to humble yourself and call to the Lord for an answer, because He will provide one, it is there in the gospels, read with an open heart.
So what do they say, scrap the standard, but keep the sign.
We are called to be the salt of the earth, a light to the world. Without standards we are nothing, just sinners fooling ourselves we have achieved anything, lost slaves to sin and not slaves to righteousness.
We need to obey Jesus, follow His commands.
Now anyone who calls this legalism is preaching against Jesus at a fundamental level. By obedience we learn Jesus's spiritual laws, how to love and exercise wisdom. To those who claim to be christians yet do not know this basic reality, you do not know properly who you follow.
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38
Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34
And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Matt 28:19-20
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18
Now if you claim to follow Jesus but do not obey Him or are a slave to righteousness, what are you?
You need to humble yourself and call to the Lord for an answer, because He will provide one, it is there in the gospels, read with an open heart.
Angela, I missed this teaching. I have never heard anyone teach that Satan was created the enemy, opposed to the Kingdom. Is this an extension of the idea angels do not have free will, so the enemy was created as such?
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding... When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:4-7
And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. Revelation 12:3-4
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:9
For in the resurrection they [believers] neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Matthew 22:30
I am not an expert on Satan or the theology around him, which is obviously very sketchy.
You obviously have something different to offer on this.
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding... When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:4-7
And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. Revelation 12:3-4
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:9
For in the resurrection they [believers] neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Matthew 22:30
I am not an expert on Satan or the theology around him, which is obviously very sketchy.
You obviously have something different to offer on this.
"...present... your members as instruments of righteousness to God" (Romans 6:13). In obeying God is on my side, so that the grace of God and my obedience are in perfect agreement. Obedience means that i have completely placed my trust in the atonement, and my obedience is immediately met by the delight of the supernatural grace of God. Beware of human holiness that denies the reality of the natural life-it is fraud.
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