There will be no Rapture!!!

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TheDivineWatermark

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John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God. ' ”

Where does Jesus say that He already ascended? It does not. The KJV says 'Touch Me not...' and some interpreters point out that Jesus had Thomas touch His wounds, and argue that He must have ascended. But I have also heard the interpretation that the word here used has to do with 'clinging.' She wasn't allowed to cling to Him before the ascension, not touch His wounds as Thomas had done.
First of all, where did I say that Jesus "already ascended" BEFORE He told Mary Magdalene what He said in John 20:17. I didn't say that nor imply that.

I said He ascended before the LATER Acts 1 scene you had referred to in your earlier post.




He said to her (ON "FIRSTFRUIT" / His Res-Day), "I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED, but go to My brethren and SAY UNTO THEM, I ASCEND [active]..." So she went and did what she was told to do, and He then "ascended" to the Father. Recall, this is early in the day.

Then way later that same day, this:


Jesus Appears to the Disciples

(John 20:19-23; 1 John 1:1-4)

36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

[see also Mark 16:9-11 (where it says of MM "and she went and told them..." and so does Jn20:18 say so), then 12-13 (where the two walking went and told the residue of His resurrection), then v.14 where Jesus "appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen"]




Ask yourself, why does Jesus tell MM to "go and say unto My brethren I ascend [active] unto My Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" if / since He is going to see them late in the evening that very same day and could very well tell them HIMSELF about His "40 days later" ascension IF that's what He was talking about.
And ask yourself, why does He now (that very same day) say to them "Handle me..." when He'd just earlier that very day told MM "Touch Me not, FOR I am NOT YET ascended to My Father"





Then recognize that a week earlier (on what we call "Palm Sunday" [when the "69 Weeks" concluded], i.e. on "Nisan 10") it was the very day when, according to Ex12:3,5,6 they were to "select" the sacrificial lamb and examine it for four days, "Your lamb shall be WITHOUT BLEMISH, a male of the first year...". Now look at the passage I referred to in my earlier post, Lev23:10-12 which speaks of the day on their calendar they called "Firstfruit," and note where verse 12 says, "...offer that day when ye wave the sheaf [which you "bring" "unto the priest" per v.10] an he lamb of the first year WITHOUT BLEMISH".




Jesus is both the fulfillment of "the sheaf" and the "he lamb of the first year without blemish" (on the very day they called "Firstfruit"--see also 1Cor15:20)... and because of our connection with Christ (as "the Church which is His body"--all those having come to faith in Christ in "this present age [singular]"), the following also pertains to us:

--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST [not in water] were baptized INTO HIS DEATH" Rom6:3,
and then v.6 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him..."
and v.8, "Now if we be DEAD WITH CHRIST...";
Col2:12 says re: us, "having been buried-with Him IN THE BAPTISM" https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-12.htm (i.e. His death);

..."wherein also ye are RISEN WITH HIM [/ye were raised-with Him]..." (see also Col3:1-4 on same theme)...;

--and Col2:13 states we are "quickened-together-with Him" (speaking of His bodily resurrection);

...and Eph2:5b-6, speaking of same, says that God "quickened-us-together-with Christ [WHEN HE WAS]...

...and hath raised-us-up-together, and made-us-sit-together [/seated-us-together] IN HEAVENLY PLACES / IN HEAVENLIES in Christ Jesus" (that is, positionally / legally, WHEN HE HIMSELF DID (all those)... not literally (yet).


The "SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLIES [in Christ Jesus]" is what I'm saying He accomplished ON the date called "FIRSTFRUIT"... when He told MM to GO and SAY UNTO them "I ASCEND [active]"... (but later that very evening, told the disciples to "HANDLE ME and see"... because by that point, He'd already fulfilled both "the sheaf" ["wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you" Lev23:11] and "the he lamb... without blemish" on the same day the sheaf was brought [to wave], that is, ON FIRSTFRUIT [Nisan 17 that year], always on a Sunday: "on the morrow, after the sabbath").



Then He spent some "40 days" being seen of them, before the Acts 1 scene, where He (while they "beheld') "was taken up"... and "they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went / traveled / journeyed up...". It is THIS "manner" that it is said, "He shall SO come IN LIKE MANNER AS ye have SEEN Him traveling / go into heaven" (that is, VISIBLY--which connects both with the statement that "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him"--when He "RETURNS"--and where 2Th2:8b speaks of when He "shall destroy [that Wicked / man of sin] with the MANIFESTATION of His coming / parousia" and where 1Tim6:15 says, "Which in His times HE SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST], Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" [see this phrase used only elsewhere in Rev17:14 and 19:16--when He is "RETURNING" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing AFTER the Trib yrs of course).





Is any of this in any way helpful, toward your questions? (lol)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the coming of Christ, the parousia of Christ.
You're ignoring what I'd put about the word "parousia of our Lord Jesus" used IN THE SAME CONTEXT as the famous "Rapture" verse (1Th4:17), used in 1Th3:13, which also tells us WHAT WILL HAPPEN AT THAT TIME: we will be brought "BEFORE [G1715 - IN THE PRESENCE OF] the God and Father of us..."

Again, the word "parousia" [presence] depends on WHERE He will be "present" in any given context where written;
it does not IN EVERY CASE *mean* "His coming [/presence] to the earth [/return to the earth]" (when "every eye" shall "SEE Him").

In 2Th2:1 "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (via the "snatch / rapture / caught up / harpagēsometha [G726]"), which involves NO ONE ELSE but US / the Church which is His body (for the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him" thing!!) He will be "present" IN THE AIR (where WE--and NO ONE ELSE--will GO "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"! NO ONE ELSE / it involves NO ONE ELSE but US! "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM").

And in 1Th3:13 His "presence" will be "BEFORE [G1715 - IN THE PRESENCE OF] the God and Father of us" (following the "caught up" part). That is, UP THERE. (This is true as depicted in both Dan7:13 and in Rev4-5! and in that latter passage the 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones and already wearing the awarded, promised "stephanous / crowns" are saying, "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." [7 years prior to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19]; all passages on this Subject agree... Which I won't go all into in this post... I've done that in many past posts, and my fingers are all tuckered out, atm! lol)




[again, the main point being that "parousia" depends on CONTEXT as to WHERE He will be "present," WHEN... and in whose presence He will be, in any given context; There is not merely ONE "the parousia" (as you suggest) that means one thing, i.e. His RETURN when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him... NO. Again, SEE 1Th3:13's "G1715"!!]
 
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You might want to search it out for yourself. But unless you are willing to connect the dots there will be no progress.
Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"
"By which also He went..." back in the days of Noah (specifically)... back then He preached to the spirits now "in prison" and He did so through the mouthpiece of Noah, a preacher of righteousness, that is, via the Spirit (back in that day / time-frame).
 

ewq1938

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"By which also He went..." back in the days of Noah (specifically)... back then He preached to the spirits now "in prison" and He did so through the mouthpiece of Noah, a preacher of righteousness, that is, via the Spirit (back in that day / time-frame).

It doesn't say that at all.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The context is that Jesus died, and went to preach to the spirits of the dead. It was not time travel to preach to living people through Noah. That is a ridiculous interpretation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Your 'NO time element' thing doesn't seem to pan out based on usage or Greek dictionaries as far as I can tell, since the words describe one thing that happens sequentially before another.
As I'd stated in past posts, "EITA" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY with no "time-element" attached to it.

This is why 1Cor15:24a "THEN [eita] the end" can (and does) refer to something SEQUENTIALLY "1000 years LATER" (unlike what the Amil-teachings insist, that it means here "then immediately the end...").


"EPeita," on the other hand, means "UPON-then" (think of it kind of like how we in English use the words: "thereupon"... with the idea being along the lines of "once that happens, then [the next thing happens]"); It doesn't refer to things [sequentially] "2000 YEARS apart".

Besides, the "But [conj]" of v.23 JOINS together the "future tense" Subject of v.22b, so that ALL of the contents of v.23 speak of "FUTURE" things (not Jesus' Own PAST resurrection that v.20 had already spoken to).
 

GRACE_ambassador

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you skip all over the Bible without bringing any logical thoughts together.
noted...
In fact, you offer very little scripture, and you skip all over the Bible without bringing any logical thoughts together. Please consider what Peter has to say, and continue prayerfully studying before you make confusing comments.
My Very little {over 100} Scriptures? Please be encouraged and edified:

What Saith The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided?:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Very little Scriptures cont'd:

Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven
, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

Conclusion: verses Never "taken Out Of God's Context" and
"placed in HIS Other Context" will Never Cause Confusion. Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification
When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Edified, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

More study:
Rightly Divided Bible 'Contrasts'
Will The Body Of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?

GRACE, Peace, Mercy, And Love...

I'm unsure where the Confusion is?
 

Cameron143

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It doesn't say that at all.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The context is that Jesus died, and went to preach to the spirits of the dead. It was not time travel to preach to living people through Noah. That is a ridiculous interpretation.
Preaching is worthless once someone dies. Moses and the prophets were sufficient for the rich man's family.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The context is that Jesus died, and went to preach to the spirits of the dead. It was not time travel to preach to living people through Noah. That is a ridiculous interpretation.
"BY [/IN] WHICH" refers back to the previous verse's "by the SPIRIT".

There was NO "time-travel" at all in what I'd written. ;)

Try reading again.

And remember, Jesus had said, "into Thy hands I commend my spirit" (He went immediately in His human spirit TO THE FATHER, upon His death--His BODY went to the grave.)
 

ewq1938

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"BY [/IN] WHICH" refers back to the previous verse's "by the SPIRIT".

There was NO "time-travel" at all in what I'd written. ;)

Try reading again.

And remember, Jesus had said, "into Thy hands I commend my spirit" (He went immediately in His human spirit TO THE FATHER, upon His death--His BODY went to the grave.)

And he went to Hades and preached to the dead there.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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And he went to Hades and preached to the dead there.
Here is what the 1 Peter 3 passage states,


For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By [/IN] which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



So, what you are suggesting is that this passage is telling us that Jesus (once He died) went to Hades and (as this passage speaks of) "preached" to those who existed on the earth "IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING"... but speaks NOTHING WHATSOEVER of ppl who'd died before the ark was preparing (like in the days of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel--those days.)



WHY is this passage speaking specifically of "WHICH SOMETIME WERE DISOBEDIENT, WHEN... [God waited] IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING..." ?? speaking of a very specific era of human history... NOT of ALL of persons in history (who also were unsaved too--this passage speaks NOTHING of any other time-period, but that specific one... WHY??).





[Me-thinks you've been hood-winked by tradition, namely, by (at least) one version of "the Apostle's Creed"... :rolleyes: ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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John was having this vision in 90-something AD, or whenever (some place it earlier), and saw these elders in his vision. If you see a vision or have a dream of someone located at a certain location, and you wake up or come out of the vision and go talk to that person, they may not have literally and physically have been in that place. I had a couple of dreams about my brother, who
Verse 4:1 literally states,

Berean Standard Bible
After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”

Berean Literal Bible
After these things I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show to you what it behooves to take place after these things."

King James Bible
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

New American Standard Bible
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”




... so, this is not saying "what must happen next in your dream / vision" [John's vision].




This is saying more like: what things are [being] prophesied to take place "after these things"... (so they "MUST" take place!!!).

How one interprets those things is another matter (whether literal, allegorical, etc)... but what is "shew[n]" to John (starting in 4:1's "SHEW," reflective of the "TO SHEW" of 1:1) is "what MUST take place after these things [after the "things which are," written of in chpts 2-3]" (see this per 1:19a,b,c).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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When Joseph woke up from his dream, where there twelve sheaves of grain laying around? When the butler/wine taster and baker of Pharoah dreamed and woke up, were there grapes laying in the cell? Was there a basket of bread and some birds flying around?
When Joseph dreamed (re: sheaves / my sheaf) was that a picture [a "prophecy" if you will] of something real that would actually TAKE PLACE at a later time from his dream?

When the two in prison dreamed those things, were they a picture [a "prophecy," if you will] of something real that would actually later TAKE PLACE? Or just a result of their having eaten pizza the night before they dreamed these? lol







Notice how Joseph's TWO dreams are alluded to elsewhere in Scripture to point to both Jesus' FIRST ADVENT and [events surrounding] His SECOND ADVENT (as we call them):

-- compare the wording of Lk19:14b [re: in His first advent] with that of Gen37:8;

--and then compare the wording of Gen37:9 with Rev12:1 [re: "future" events surrounding His second coming to the earth]...


...both depicting... real, actual things (prophesied re: Jesus... via Joseph's two "dreams" [and recorded in Scripture, so we could read about it and KNOW OF THEM ;) ])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Working my way slowly through the various points in your posts... and questions addressed to me... haha (I'm slow, I know)...

But let us look at the context of 'first resurrection' and see if the verse has to do with time sequence?
Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(NKJV)
Here we have events that occur in a sequence of time. First is the first resurrection, but the rest of the dead aren't raised until a thousand years later. The first resurrection happens first, then the resurrection described later on in the book.
Let me ask you a question, to get to my point:

in the part of your post I highlighted in blue and underlined in v.5 ("THIS IS"), what [in the text] is the "THIS" referring to?

Would you not say, that which had been specifically spelled out in v.4b?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Yes, that’s what I believe, too. Clouds (of people) refers to all the saints (elect) that come with Jesus.
Let me ask you, do you believe the same ^ about the following verse? :

"In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence." - Daniel 7:13




[let the readers note this verse's proximity to the specific "time-stamps" (and other like indicators) in v.25,27... v.22b (see Rev20:4a), and v.20]








[again, besides that point ^ , the word "come / coming" (re: Jesus) depends on "which direction" He's headed ;) In this text ^ , it is "into His [the Ancient of Days' ] presence" (IN HEAVEN); similarly to that of 1Th3:13 ;) (in the CONTEXT of our 1Th4:17 "rapture" passage)]
 

presidente

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You might want to search it out for yourself. But unless you are willing to connect the dots there will be no progress.
Kind of like how conspiracy theorists 'connect the dots' with the lose evidence they present?

The Bible mentions the coming of Christ many times. Asserting that Christ comes back two more times is a pretty big deal. 'Connecting the dots' with weak theories is not sufficient.