Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

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Are we not the temple of the Holy Spirit?
Are we not walking in righteousness and purity through Christ and His word?

Are we not the expression of Christs will no earth?
So why is there any failure or condemnation in what we as Christs people do
here on earth?

Or am I missing something? Unless we walk in sin and are not walking in the Spirit?

Some seem to address everything in the world of failure and defeat, not victory and
praise. I have just noticed this continual drip of propoganda and condemnation.
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes. I go one way, then another, as I clearly see the tension between verses. And then I come back to the fact that satan believes very deeply, that Christ exists. He doesn't just believe it - he knows it. And that to put your hand to the plow and turn back is to be not fit for the Kingdom. And yet, I trust Him that He will do whatever is good concerning me. And... I just have to accept the tensions and go to Him with them and let Him place me among them and wait for Him to show me more and give me more understanding.

I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me. Because if He is ever ready to forgive, why do I need to concern myself with it. His mercies begin anew each morning. Why do I need to grab for something that He is ever ready to give as if I want it apart from Him, like a contract that ties His hands, even against unbelief and mistrust? I don't know if that came out clearly...
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Not sure I got all of this you are saying - but it seems somewhat similar to some of my thoughts - though also from very different angles.

The thought that "I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me" strikes a cord deep in my own heart - I am with you on that one!
 
Chester said:
The thought that "I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me" strikes a cord deep in my own heart - I am with you on that one!
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They are doctrines of men either grappling with the Truth of the revealed written Word of God or attempting to make it clearer to those who know it not. When we have Jesus, doctrines of men don't quite cut it. We may find some value in the explanations and they may even help clarify certain things while we can at the same time take opposing views and find no reason to choose either one as being the full understanding on the matter.
 
Post # 458 by Grace 777 x 70

Well said - I agree completely.

When I try to "reply with quote" for some of your messages my computer just gets stuck. I wonder if it occurs when your posts have a lot of cut and pasted things?
 
eternally-gratefull said:

why does anyone have to be responsible.
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I want to make sure we are on the same page before replying...

Are you saying that you have no responsibility to keep people from being taken out of the faith or have any skin in the game trying to return them to the faith?
 
Chester said:
Post # 458 by Grace 777 x 70

Well said - I agree completely.

When I try to "reply with quote" for some of your messages my computer just gets stuck. I wonder if it occurs when your posts have a lot of cut and pasted things?
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I have the same problem too. Sometimes it's because of long posts too...not sure exactly why but it also happens with short posts. Maybe it has to do with the business of the server at the time too?
 
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:28

In Christ all our enthusiasm He can use and direct.
But a train that is not moving will never get anywhere.

I have never grown as much as when I have just thrown myself into things and
trusted in His care and love to guide me through.

And boy has he blessed, and used my feeble attempts to serve Him and His glorious
gospel.

Even when people accuse you of being fake, Halleluyah, Christ is all in all.
The victory the cross is transcends our perceptions and emotions, it grows into
eternity, it breaks down barriers, it melts hearts, it take evil and hatred and heals
the wounds and brings new life to barren situations.

I have seen terrorists become preachers in revival, I have seen violent young men
become humble followers of Christs love and give their lives to testify to His love.

So we should never underestimate the power of the cross, or doubt people who come
alive with the vision of what it means to their hearts. It is the power of salvation.
 
Concerning the works we do and where they can originate from - here is a quote which explain this out quite well. I got this from FreeNChrist's posts in the past.

I love them because they describe the difference between doing things with our own self-effort in the flesh and works from the life of Christ in us.

For some unknown reason these truths seem to offend works-based believers. I would think we would celebrate the works that Christ does through and in us in order for the Lord to be glorified and seek to have Him only work through and in us.



Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
 
Stunnedbygrace said:
I am perturbed at chester and pink - I want them to be here with us! :) I am impatient to listen to them some more!
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Haha, I had to work a long shift. I see I missed a lot. I tried to read through most of the posts I missed. It appears you all had a very nice discussion :)
 
The flesh -
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

The above passage concludes those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Now the quote from Major Ian Thomas links works of the flesh with activities in churches.

"The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. "

So the slander is against the body of Christ. Now ofcourse believers and the unsaved
both dwell in christian groups, but to wholesale condemn church activities like this is
to accept the accusations of the enemy.

But the justification is works based justification before the Lord, or selfish benefits motivating
people. Again this is propoganda and slander. We are not to submit or entertain such slander
unless such sin is obvious.

And it is just a lie to say those who walk after the flesh are immature christians.
Paul is clearly saying they do not know the Lord.

But so deep is the cynism against churches this propoganda is just accepted as true.
We are called to bring glory and praise to Christ, out of a generous heart.
And this is the testimony I have for the people I know who have served Christ in the
church and the great blessing they have brought in this ministry.

So it is with sadness such poison is regard as truth or insight by ex-legalist cynics who
obviously served Christ for the wrong reasons and project this on to everyone else.

It is like me saying all on cc share in the flesh to decieve and destroy the work of
God and the church. This would be a lie. Almost all share from a sincere belief they
have something good to share that they want others to be encouraged by, even when
they may be completely missguided. The church is no different.
 
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Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, I agree. This is why I understand people who say it is a process. The mustard seed of faith gets watered with the word and with the experiences of truly living the word in experience and God grows it until it becomes a large and strong tree. I think He points out bitter roots/weeds that could grow up to choke out the life of the tree that is growing strong and we put our hand to the plow and tear up the seeds and roots of doubt that He points out. We just refuse the seed of doubt and don't give it any ground and we say, no, this is what He has said He will do and I believe Him. That very act IS the plowing (I think).
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Amen,

This is why I do not see the possibility one who had true faith in Christ, and the seed being watered by the love of God and his continual act of proving he is worthy of our faith, and growing that faith ever losing that faith to the point they have done a complete 180. and have absolutely no faith at all, We may be faithless (as the man said, Help me in my unbelief (The same word paul used in timothy by the way, When we are faithless)
 
Chester said:
Ah! It is making sense now!

You are right - if you look carefully at how the Greek word "pisteuo" is used and the cases of the nouns that follow the word it means different things in the context.

Quick explanation (I have to run again!)

In James I would say that the demons believed that God exists and is real, etc., but they have not believed "into" (Greek preposition) - that is they have not rested faith in God, or they have not rested their lives into Him.

So, I would say that the demons did have faith that God existed, but their faith did not rest in Him. (Or something like that!)
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Thank you for this mister!
It is another way to explain it that might be a help to some when they are blocked on the way you or I or someone else tries to say what we mean to get across. Sometimes it just takes a tweak of an adjective or verb or noun to suddenly make sense to us...
 
eph610 said:
I want to make sure we are on the same page before replying...

Are you saying that you have no responsibility to keep people from being taken out of the faith or have any skin in the game trying to return them to the faith?
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I believe many people come to christ by some believer sharing them the gospel. or while visiting someone like billy graham at one of his meetings.

Then the person goes out, is not told he or she should find a church or a group of believers, And a place where they can be shown how to grow and have people help protect them.

Is it these peoples fault if they are taken out? Will God take his gift back because people led to Christ then let them go (even Billy realized at the end this was a major mistake he made) or is it the people who led them to Christ?

I have also seen babes in Christ lose loved ones, or lose jobs, and have their lives fall apart. and this causes them to walk away How can God love them and let that happen to them.

Who's fault is that? Did the church let them down by not making sure they were strong? Did God let them down? Did they let themselves down?

like I said. there are way to many senereos we could go over.. so to try to apply blame? I am not willing to judge when I do not know.

I do know God knows. And I do know if a person was saved, God will keep his word.
 
Chester said:
Very intriguing thoughts and discussion -
Hence - example - I John 5:1 KJV- "believeth"
I John 5:4 - KJV - "faith"
I John 5:5 - KJV - "believeth"
These three words are all the same root having the same meaning.
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I think not so much about the greek meaning of words but the actual concepts being discussed.
Faith is often thought of as being a belief that God exists.

But this is a mistake. Faith that God exists is like saying I know the world is round.
The key issue is the nature of God that you believe in, and how you agree or disagree with His
approach to existance.

The demons know God exists but hate Him and His approach. They know they are defeated
and bitter, but they can do nothing about it, because goodness no longer dwells within them.

We believe in Christ, His nature and redemption through the cross, the power love and
righteousness. We know obedience to the will of the Father is the power of His kingdom.

"Our Father who is in heaven, glory be to your name, may your kingdom come,
may you will be done on earth as it is heaven"

We need to become like Christ, to walk in His ways. This is the road of salvation.

Repentance is well defined in Ezek 18:21.

The Lords word is eternal. Those who overthrow it as a cheap offering bring judgement
on their souls.

Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Prov 30:5

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.
Matt 12:26
 
What is the nature of intimacy

It is interesting that people can feel love and acceptance, yet it can be ripped away and closest
relationships turned into dust. Or this is how it feels, look at the number of divorces in our societies
where people freely enter with great optimism and it falls apart.

Walking with Jesus is much deeper, yet the balance of loyalties are the same.
We are called to put Jesus at the highest point in our hearts.

But often through the trials of life, whatever drew them leaves their hearts.
But the real fear is how could a God of love betray me and let me go?
But He never will, but we can give up, we cannot fight through or work things
out. The nature of love is the door will always be open, there is no prison in
the Kingdom.

The deeper you walk with Christ, the more beautiful and glorious the King appears
to be. Our hearts, our emotions, our motivations, our understanding will betray us
unless we manage to place it on the altar of God.

How many times must we fail? Until we walk in love. How many times must we hurt?
Until suffering is because you love and desire the best for others. Hurt is part of loving,
it is its power and its victory. The creator will catch us, the pain is the perspective
between perfection and rebellion. In this lost world, which will we choose, comfort now
with death, or death of comfort for love and life eternal?
 
Magenta said:
They are doctrines of men either grappling with the Truth of the revealed written Word of God or attempting to make it clearer to those who know it not. When we have Jesus, doctrines of men don't quite cut it. We may find some value in the explanations and they may even help clarify certain things while we can at the same time take opposing views and find no reason to choose either one as being the full understanding on the matter.
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If I could like this 20 times, I would hit the like button until my hand got tired. They are not always opposing views. Sometimes they are just two men, both insisting that there is no tension between verses and that there is only one side of the road and only one ditch. It is like...trying to tear our Lords' seamless robe instead of noting that it is seamless and will be ruined if it is torn. It is one piece.
 
eternally-gratefull said:

Be on the watch, For satan like a roaring lion, seeks who he may devour.

Satan uses people. religion, and other tactics to take people out. even if he is not personally involved.

Our flesh can also take us out. when we do not get involved in a body of believers and try to be lone wolf Christians.. or if we get involved in a church who is not rightely dividing the word of truth (has legalistic tendencies)

our friends and family can tear us down. The death of a loved one, a lost job, a failure to overcome a certain sin habit..

Many things can tear us down.
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These things that tear us down as you say, are the testing of our faith. We struggle to keep believing that God is doing the very best thing for us because it seems that He is just beating us. We cannot see that we are being tested for our great good in the growing of our faith. So we don't surrender in trust but we wrestle with God and contend with Him. Our will wants what is pleasant and easy. But our will is the very problem. We want what we want, not what has come to us. We begin to mistrust that He is doing good. We begin to think He is being cruel to us instead of caring for us. This IS the race we are in. A race to keep trusting no matter what it looks like to us.
 
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