Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[eph610]

See, but it's not as simple as that either. I have been in unbelief and mistrust in an area, but in firm belief in others. And yet, He never took His Spirit from me and still communed with me often. So I was abiding in some areas and not abiding in others. And not only that, I wasn't aware of the areas where I wasn't until He showed me. So there is an aspect to it also that...we aren't expected to walk by light we have yet to receive (I have many things to tell you but you are not ready to bear them yet), but I think we ARE required to walk by light we HAVE received.

And yet, walking by that light does not mean we have to perform a "work." We simply have to not hide from the light but have to see and admit the truth He has shown us about our mistrust and look for Him to then change us. In other words, just seeing the truth does not make us any more capable in ourselves - it just makes us more truthful.

We can't hide from light we haven't seen, but once we have seen it, we can either embrace the truth/light or we can refuse it because we don't like the way a glaring and harsh light makes us look.

I hope I've gotten my point across...He would never abandon me for not walking by light I am not yet able to bear. But what would He do if I just refused light He DID give me because I didn't like the way the light made me look? Because that is WHY it says people run from light/truth - it is because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown. But then you also have to take into account that He is patient because the one son originally said, no I will not do it, but then later, he did. And the father was pleased with that son.

You just begin to see that the word is seamless somehow because it goes on and on...

I mam not saying that one ounce of unbelief and it is all over...Like Is said

Surrender is an ongoing process of growing your belief

The error is that some do not believe any kind of surrender is not needed at any point in your walk....and that saving grace carries you and you can live like hell with no surrender and no growth....

You demonstrate spiritual growth in progress sister and that is what it is all about, not that you surrender all at once, but that you grow in your relationship...

My heartburn comes from some that cleverly disguise what they really want to say....
Once you have faith in God and get saved that's it, you can like like hell.....and God's gonna be ok with that....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi eph!

These are strong wrestlings we are dealing with here. The tension is palpable. I believe we have not wrestled enough because God was angry with those who put a bandaid on a mortal wound and who told those who were not safe that they were safe when there was no peace with God and God was not pleased. And He was mad that they also caused sadness to those who were safe, by telling them they weren't. It's almost as if I see this same mistake being repeated, as you seem to see too...
This is important stuff to wrestle with and He brings us TO the wrestling. But I need to give my brain a coffee break - I'll be back to read your last post more closely.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Make not mistake EG, I am not talking about total surrender as it relates to Salvation....That second comment was not from me....

A person can confess and have faith, but to repent means to change or turn away....we should stop saying repent when we mean confess.....

This is another area where a disconnect comes

Repent does not mean turn away, or change,, Because we have no power to do either

Repent means to have a change of heart, or a change of belief. I go from thinking I am my own God, and I make my own decisions, and I can SAVE myself or I do not even need saved, To agree with God. He is God, He rightly has judged me, I have fallen short of his glory in sin, and I can not save myself. so I agree to put my eternity in Gods hands, because I admit or confess, That I am a sinner, and have no hope.

this is where faith comes in, Of one has not agreed with all God says about our state of death, and his offer of forgiveness Then we have not yet repented, and we may believe these things, we have no faith in them.

biblical faith and belief are two things.. They are not the same

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See, but it's not as simple as that either. I have been in unbelief and mistrust in an area, but in firm belief in others. And yet, He never took His Spirit from me and still communed with me often. So I was abiding in some areas and not abiding in others. And not only that, I wasn't aware of the areas where I wasn't until He showed me. So there is an aspect to it also that...we aren't expected to walk by light we have yet to receive (I have many things to tell you but you are not ready to bear them yet), but I think we ARE required to walk by light we HAVE received.

And yet, walking by that light does not mean we have to perform a "work." We simply have to not hide from the light but have to see and admit the truth He has shown us about our mistrust and look for Him to then change us. In other words, just seeing the truth does not make us any more capable in ourselves - it just makes us more truthful.

We can't hide from light we haven't seen, but once we have seen it, we can either embrace the truth/light or we can refuse it because we don't like the way a glaring and harsh light makes us look.

I hope I've gotten my point across...He would never abandon me for not walking by light I am not yet able to bear. But what would He do if I just refused light He DID give me because I didn't like the way the light made me look? Because that is WHY it says people run from light/truth - it is because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown. But then you also have to take into account that He is patient because the one son originally said, no I will not do it, but then later, he did. And the father was pleased with that son.

You just begin to see that the word is seamless somehow because it goes on and on...

I look to the time Jesus healed a mans daughter (or was it a son?)

Jesus said do you have faith, the man said, "no Lord, But help me in my unbelief"

God healed the mans child in spite of the fact the man had no faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The error is that some do not believe any kind of surrender is not needed at any point in your walk....and that saving grace carries you and you can live like hell with no surrender and no growth....

.

Do you think this person has repented, Has faith in God, and is born again?

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I don't believe in the teaching as a whole about "surrendering" to God. I understand the concept behind the saying and the rational for saying it.

I think it is a by-product of not really hearing the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

The truth is that we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. The gospel is about an exchanged life - not a re-forming of morality principles or in striving to do things for God. We died with Jesus on the cross and we rose with Him too.

Does our behavior change now that we are in Christ and we are a new creation in Christ? Yes - it does but it stems and originates from the life of Christ which is already in us in Christ. We can't dictate or produce this change on our own.

We Christians see the words of the apostles in their writings about what the Christian life should look like and then try to "mandate or dictate" this way of life onto people without really preaching the gospel to them.

Paul always at the start of his letters told the people who they were in Christ - sanctified, loved, complete in Christ, they were the righteousness of God in Christ...etc. Then he explained to them what this Christian life looks like when it is being manifested "after" telling them about this exchanged life in Christ.

I firmly believe that if we preached the true gospel of the grace of Christ - people will walk in who they are in Christ - being completely dependent on the life of Christ in them for living. This "surrendering" thing will be automatic and un-conscious as we walk out who we already are in Him.

I hope I am articulating what I am seeing in my spirit. I am NOT saying that people do not follow the Lord with all their lives - I'm saying the complete opposite. He is our life - there is no other life for the Christian.

 

[eph610]

we have to take the Verse in context.

Paul is talking to a group of people "we" if we are to believe that he is talking to all born again children of God. That faith in God was already in place. And that is why we were forgive of our sin, and adopted as his children to begin with. (it also means so much more, but that we will leave for another time)

What it also means is that a person who has not yet repented, Not yet come to saving faith, Is still dead in their sins, This passage does not apply to them, so under no context would we use this passage to apply to them

if we (those who were saved by faith already) become faithless..he is faithful.

Now. what does this mean is the question.

to me it means go back on his word Take his gift back, Remove our sinship. and make is dead again, needing to be born again again.. because it means God saved a person who had faith, But that faith was not real, or he did not know that person in the future would change his mind and repent back to the world (to the point they have no faith in God)

i hope this makes sense. If not just ask,,

I think Paul was simply saying If we remain in the faith he is faithful to his promise of eternal life, if we do not come into the faith he is likewise faithful that the wags of sin is death....to not be faithful to his own promises means he would deny his own very nature...

 

[Gr8grace]

we have to take the Verse in context.

Paul is talking to a group of people "we" if we are to believe that he is talking to all born again children of God. That faith in God was already in place. And that is why we were forgive of our sin, and adopted as his children to begin with. (it also means so much more, but that we will leave for another time)

What it also means is that a person who has not yet repented, Not yet come to saving faith, Is still dead in their sins, This passage does not apply to them, so under no context would we use this passage to apply to them

if we (those who were saved by faith already) become faithless..he is faithful.

Now. what does this mean is the question.

to me it means go back on his word Take his gift back, Remove our sinship. and make is dead again, needing to be born again again.. because it means God saved a person who had faith, But that faith was not real, or he did not know that person in the future would change his mind and repent back to the world (to the point they have no faith in God)

i hope this makes sense. If not just ask,,

I agree this is for believers only. And we have to go back to "this is a trustworthy statement."

If we have died with him. A first class conditional clause. If, and we HAVE died with Him. What happens when we die with Him? We are made a part of Him. We are his body the moment we believe/trust in Him. Christ IN us. Positional truth.

And we WILL live with him. More positional truth.

If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we deny enduring, He will deny us reign with Him.

Yet, if we don't endure and we become faithless, He remains faithful because He can't deny Himself.....back up to the trustworthy statement "because we have died with Him" we are a part of Him,His Body.

Eph 5~~ 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think Paul was simply saying If we remain in the faith he is faithful to his promise of eternal life, if we do not come into the faith he is likewise faithful that the wags of sin is death....to not be faithful to his own promises means he would deny his own very nature...

I will be honest, this makes no sense to me, What kind of hope can I have in a god that if I lose faith he will turn his back on me..

to me, if God did turn his back on me, He was not faithful, Because he promised never to leave nor forsake me, He told me I would never hunger, never thirst, Live forever, never die, Have eternal life and he will raise me on the last day. He promised me he already gave me all things in the heavenly places. and that I have the Holy Spirit as a seal until the day of redemption.

not saying to judge you. Just what I see.. so please do not take it that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree this is for believers only. And we have to go back to "this is a trustworthy statement."

If we have died with him. A first class conditional clause. If, and we HAVE died with Him. What happens when we die with Him? We are made a part of Him. We are his body the moment we believe/trust in Him. Christ IN us. Positional truth.

And we WILL live with him. More positional truth.

If we endure, we will reign with Him. If we deny enduring, He will deny us reign with Him.

Yet, if we don't endure and we become faithless, He remains faithful because He can't deny Himself.....back up to the trustworthy statement "because we have died with Him" we are a part of Him,His Body.

Eph 5~~29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Good points..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is another area where a disconnect comes

Repent does not mean turn away, or change,, Because we have no power to do either

Repent means to have a change of heart, or a change of belief. I go from thinking I am my own God, and I make my own decisions, and I can SAVE myself or I do not even need saved, To agree with God. He is God, He rightly has judged me, I have fallen short of his glory in sin, and I can not save myself. so I agree to put my eternity in Gods hands, because I admit or confess, That I am a sinner, and have no hope.

this is where faith comes in, Of one has not agreed with all God says about our state of death, and his offer of forgiveness Then we have not yet repented, and we may believe these things, we have no faith in them.

biblical faith and belief are two things.. They are not the same

Stretched my legs and got some coffee. Ready to dig in again but this is deep stuff and I need lots of breaks.
I read that verse a bit differently but it may be because my translation says: Lord, I DO believe! Help my unbelief! So I don't think He healed there in spite of the man having no faith at all. I have loved that man, because I say the same thing sometimes - I DO believe Lord! Please help my UNbelief!

I am thinking about where you say faith and belief are two different things. To me, faith just means trust. And I don't know if I can separate out belief from trust. Eve did what God said not to do. Did she do it while believing God? That would be suicidal. If I told you not to eat a candy bar on the counter because you would die if you did, what would be the reason you ate it? Wouldn't it be because you truly believed that I had been lying for some reason? If you believed me, of COURSE you wouldn't eat it. You would only eat it if you didn't believe that I was telling you the truth. So Eve disobeyed God BECAUSE of her unbelief that He had told the truth. The unbelief/mistrust was the sin. The action was a result of the sin of unbelief. So my mind cannot seem to separate belief and faith...

 

[eph610]

Personally I don't believe in the teaching as a whole about "surrendering" to God. I understand the concept behind the saying and the rational for saying it.

I think it is a by-product of not really hearing the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

The truth is that we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. The gospel is about an exchanged life - not a re-forming of morality principles or in striving to do things for God. We died with Jesus on the cross and we rose with Him too.

Does our behavior change now that we are in Christ and we are a new creation in Christ? Yes - it does but it stems and originates from the life of Christ which is already in us in Christ. We can't dictate or produce this change on our own.

We Christians see the words of the apostles in their writings about what the Christian life should look like and then try to "mandate or dictate" this way of life onto people without really preaching the gospel to them.

Paul always at the start of his letters told the people who they were in Christ - sanctified, loved, complete in Christ, they were the righteousness of God in Christ...etc. Then he explained to them what this Christian life looks like when it is being manifested "after" telling them about this exchanged life in Christ.

I firmly believe that if we preached the true gospel of the grace of Christ - people will walk in who they are in Christ - being completely dependent on the life of Christ in them for living. This "surrendering" thing will be automatic and un-conscious as we walk out who we already are in Him.

I hope I am articulating what I am seeing in my spirit. I am NOT saying that people do not follow the Lord with all their lives - I'm saying the complete opposite. He is our life - there is no other life for the Christian.

I totally agree with everything you said B....

I view proper surrender has more than automatic or unconscious effort, it is/should be instinctive....maybe surrender is the wrong term, maybe relationship is better, I do not know....but I do know that the word surrender and even relationship evokes many different emotions & reactions....I personally believe it evokes those things, because it forces us to examine our ourselves in light of Jesus....He gave all and surrendered everything for us.....so why do we think we should not do the same!?!?!?

A old wise mentor preacher told me once that God's people are all on fire until the soldier starts putting the nail in their wrist....I am not calling anyone out here by syaing that....

Preaching the Gospel is about an exchanged life, I totally agree....we are everything you said we are...Paul was as well, but he also preached to imitate Christ did he not?....what does imitating Christ look like today? Is it just mental assenting about who we are IN HIM?

To him who overcomes......I will give, grant, confess.....

 

[Chester]

This is our disconnect EG, you believe total surrender is sinless-perfection and that is not at all what I have been saying or believe...total surrender is just that surrender...we are both vets, so think about it in those terms....if you surrender as a soldier does it mean you are then made perfect...God Forbid....it means you have to trust the higher authority to get your tail end back home....and believe that what you cannot see is working on your behalf to take back what the enemy took from you....and to recover you fully without harm....

I know many that have been told that there is no way a Child of God can ever totally surrender because that makes them sinless, that is hog wash....Paul totally surrendered and won many for Christ....

At its core the doctrine that says this resists total surrender because of faithless unbelief that God will do and complete the perfect work he started in you....entering into true rest is total surrender, not to become sinless-perfection, but to enter in empowering grace that will allow you to do in your spirit what you will never do in your flesh....

Entering into true rest is absolute complete faith in Jesus Christ and allowing the Holy Ghost to led you, guide you, mold you and make you into everything God called you to be....

If you state total surrender is sinless-perfection then the Bible as a whole is a LIE.....Many want to have the Damascus road encounter, but refuse to fall on the ground, they stay on the donkey...only by falling down will you ever get tto straight street....

It is at straight street, you get your sight back and with vision, becomes true revelation.....

You need to fall to the ground EG, he will catch you...many have gone through this part.....and many are better for it...

As much as I like you, it needs to be said....It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender, makes us sinless & perfect.....we will never be sinless-perfection, but we are told we have the mind of Christ and we are told to imitate him and you cannot do that without utter and complete and total surrender to him...people must fall so he can catch them...

Excellent clear post here - you explain what you mean by total surrender - I think I would say it in very similar terms . I think EG has a somewhat different concept of "surrender".

The one part above that seems a little brusque to me is "It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender makes us sinless and perfect . . . " Maybe you are not saying this, but EG could take it to mean that you are saying he is listening to and believing Satan -- when I reality his view of "surrender" is because of what he has heard and experienced by the use of the word.

I think in a situation there are two things we should consider:
(1) Trying to understand one another's views/understandings of the term
(2) Then together trying to find out what the Biblical concept of the term is

(It probably helps very little to "look the word up in Websters!")

 

[eph610]

I will be honest, this makes no sense to me, What kind of hope can I have in a god that if I lose faith he will turn his back on me..

to me, if God did turn his back on me, He was not faithful, Because he promised never to leave nor forsake me, He told me I would never hunger, never thirst, Live forever, never die, Have eternal life and he will raise me on the last day. He promised me he already gave me all things in the heavenly places. and that I have the Holy Spirit as a seal until the day of redemption.

not saying to judge you. Just what I see.. so please do not take it that way.

No offense, this is discussion not a wrestling match....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stretched my legs and got some coffee. Ready to dig in again but this is deep stuff and I need lots of breaks.
I read that verse a bit differently but it may be because my translation says: Lord, I DO believe! Help my unbelief! So I don't think He healed there in spite of the man having no faith at all. I have loved that man, because I say the same thing sometimes - I DO believe Lord! Please help my UNbelief!

I am thinking about where you say faith and belief are two different things. To me, faith just means trust. And I don't know if I can separate out belief from trust. Eve did what God said not to do. Did she do it while believing God? That would be suicidal. If I told you not to eat a candy bar on the counter because you would die if you did, what would be the reason you ate it? Wouldn't it be because you truly believed that I had been lying for some reason? If you believed me, of COURSE you wouldn't eat it. You would only eat it if you didn't believe that I was telling you the truth. So Eve disobeyed God BECAUSE of her unbelief that He had told the truth. The unbelief/mistrust was the sin. The action was a result of the sin of unbelief. So my mind cannot seem to separate belief and faith...

look at it this way.

I believe obama is my president.

I have no faith in him at all.

I believe God is who he said he is, and Jesus died on the cross.

I have no faith in him at all...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Excellent clear post here - you explain what you mean by total surrender - I think I would say it in very similar terms . I think EG has a somewhat different concept of "surrender".

The one part above that seems a little brusque to me is "It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender makes us sinless and perfect . . . " Maybe you are not saying this, but EG could take it to mean that you are saying he is listening to and believing Satan -- when I reality his view of "surrender" is because of what he has heard and experienced by the use of the word.

I think in a situation there are two things we should consider:
(1) Trying to understand one another's views/understandings of the term
(2) Then together trying to find out what the Biblical concept of the term is

(It probably helps very little to "look the word up in Websters!")

Stay away from websters,, Lets look at the greek or hebrew, English words have so varying meanings, It causes mass confusion. The greek or hebrew is usually specific and hard to misunderstand

lolol!!

 

[Chester]

This is another area where a disconnect comes

Repent does not mean turn away, or change,, Because we have no power to do either

Repent means to have a change of heart, or a change of belief. I go from thinking I am my own God, and I make my own decisions, and I can SAVE myself or I do not even need saved, To agree with God. He is God, He rightly has judged me, I have fallen short of his glory in sin, and I can not save myself. so I agree to put my eternity in Gods hands, because I admit or confess, That I am a sinner, and have no hope.

this is where faith comes in, Of one has not agreed with all God says about our state of death, and his offer of forgiveness Then we have not yet repented, and we may believe these things, we have no faith in them.

biblical faith and belief are two things.. They are not the same

Very intriguing thoughts and discussion - I am going to strike a few quick comments in here . . . admittedly at the risk of not knowing completely what is going on - it takes time to catch up after having been "out' for awhile -- so if my comments are irrelevant, just tell me or ignore them!

Let me define several words from what I know of studying the Greek word for them:

"repent" - means literally "to think differently" - so what you say in the quote above is pretty much right on from a biblical perspective. To repent is to change our way of thinking about something which then will of course affect the heart and the actions. But the idea that repent means to "do a 180 degree turn and change your external actions" misses the depth of the meaning of repent.

You say biblical faith and belief are two things - they are not the same ??

Here you have me on a complete blank ?

The Greek word for faith is "pistis" - which means "faith or belief" as a noun.
The Greek word for "believe" is "pisteuo" which is the exact same word except it is the verb form - "to believe, or to have faith"

Hence - example - I John 5:1 KJV- "believeth"
I John 5:4 - KJV - "faith"
I John 5:5 - KJV - "believeth"

These three words are all the same root having the same meaning.

 

[Chester]

Stretched my legs and got some coffee. Ready to dig in again but this is deep stuff and I need lots of breaks.
I read that verse a bit differently but it may be because my translation says: Lord, I DO believe! Help my unbelief! So I don't think He healed there in spite of the man having no faith at all. I have loved that man, because I say the same thing sometimes - I DO believe Lord! Please help my UNbelief!

I am thinking about where you say faith and belief are two different things. To me, faith just means trust. And I don't know if I can separate out belief from trust. Eve did what God said not to do. Did she do it while believing God? That would be suicidal. If I told you not to eat a candy bar on the counter because you would die if you did, what would be the reason you ate it? Wouldn't it be because you truly believed that I had been lying for some reason? If you believed me, of COURSE you wouldn't eat it. You would only eat it if you didn't believe that I was telling you the truth. So Eve disobeyed God BECAUSE of her unbelief that He had told the truth. The unbelief/mistrust was the sin. The action was a result of the sin of unbelief. So my mind cannot seem to separate belief and faith...

I am right with you on how you describe faith and belief - that is how I view them as well - the same thing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very intriguing thoughts and discussion - I am going to strike a few quick comments in here . . . admittedly at the risk of not knowing completely what is going on - it takes time to catch up after having been "out' for awhile -- so if my comments are irrelevant, just tell me or ignore them!

Let me define several words from what I know of studying the Greek word for them:

"repent" - means literally "to think differently" - so what you say in the quote above is pretty much right on from a biblical perspective. To repent is to change our way of thinking about something which then will of course affect the heart and the actions. But the idea that repent means to "do a 180 degree turn and change your external actions" misses the depth of the meaning of repent.

You say biblical faith and belief are two things - they are not the same ??

Here you have me on a complete blank ?

The Greek word for faith is "pistis" - which means "faith or belief" as a noun.
The Greek word for "believe" is "pisteuo" which is the exact same word except it is the verb form - "to believe, or to have faith"

Hence - example - I John 5:1 KJV- "believeth"
I John 5:4 - KJV - "faith"
I John 5:5 - KJV - "believeth"

These three words are all the same root having the same meaning.

While you may be right,, The english word does not mean the same, which causes I think alot of the confusion.

in the greek, The word means I have an assurance,,we even have an example in of abrahams, where it says he was fully assured God was able to do what he promised to do. and out of this faith, he was credited with righteousness.

This is different than just believing God was able to do it.. In James, the demons believed, And that was great, But they had no faith, which is why they were in their position to begin with, they did not believe in God and they followed satan.

as for repent, I agree 100 %

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No offense, this is discussion not a wrestling match....

I see it as both. I wrestle with the tension between verses. I wrestle even as I am discussing and working it out. I just can't see verses that tell me to take care that no bitter root springs up to trouble me, causing me to become hardened and mistrustful or He can cut me off just as He did Israel along with verses that say He will never leave me. Maybe I am just more like the man who wrestled for the blessing and you are more peaceful. Maybe some live better with tension and some just want to pound the tension out!