Understanding God’s election
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RUFUS
Good point. However, perhaps the past tense statement is one showing that truly; from The Begging He had appointed certain Ones to salvation. He is The Creator, after all.
Does One really chose the path They walk? Of is IT a given? After all; He is The Creator of His creation. I have not thought deeply in That before.
DeepSeeker
Good point. However, perhaps the past tense statement is one showing that truly; from The Begging He had appointed certain Ones to salvation. He is The Creator, after all.
Does One really chose the path They walk? Of is IT a given? After all; He is The Creator of His creation. I have not thought deeply in That before.
DeepSeeker
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Like you only have the Verses that shows about hearing the Gospel you don't have any Verses for why each person would go to listen. So Romans 1 can be used as a reason as someone asking a person to come to church with them.
Even in Acts 2 people just didn't gather to hear Peter preach they heard them praying and speaking in tongues and thought they were drunk and out of their minds. But it drew the attention of people and a gathering happened and then the Gospel was preached.
So there's no reason to think that God manifesting Himself like Romans 1 explains can't draw people to God. After all, God manifests Himself so they know He is real.
Even in Acts 2 people just didn't gather to hear Peter preach they heard them praying and speaking in tongues and thought they were drunk and out of their minds. But it drew the attention of people and a gathering happened and then the Gospel was preached.
So there's no reason to think that God manifesting Himself like Romans 1 explains can't draw people to God. After all, God manifests Himself so they know He is real.
No thanks. I'm pretty sure @GWH would agree with my choice to refuse your suggestion. Why you're dragging him into this discussion is unclear. Maybe you meant @lrs68. No matter, though.
What's important in Ex1-3 is the mindset of the kings about Israel and thus how they view or will view Israel's God after Joseph's death.
When we get to the king of Egypt - Pharaoh - at the time of Moses and the subject of Ex4:21, this is said about him just before this in the Text:
NKJ Ex3:15-20 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' 16 "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; 17 "and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey."' 18 "Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, 'The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' 19 "But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.
The affliction of Israel in Egypt has been going on for a few generations after Joseph's death and the new king of Ex1:8. This is not the same king as Ex3:15 above who is the Pharoah of Ex4:21. We can see his affliction of Israel above and as God says in Ex3:19 "I am sure that the king will not let you go, not even by a mighty hand."
This is the history and the context for Ex4:21 and it's clear what God thinks of Pharoah before that verse. I'm comfortable that Pharoah is in a line of kings with hard hearts towards Israel and their God and that the above Scriptures in close context to Ex4:21 and Scripture from Ex1:8 on make clear what the line of Pharaohs thought about Israel and their God.
Additionally, there is a lot of research and debate as to who these Pharaohs were. This linked excerpt provides some substantial research and thinking on the matter. It has this to say about the Pharaoh they believe is this above discussed Pharaoh (my highlight of #3.c:
What's important in Ex1-3 is the mindset of the kings about Israel and thus how they view or will view Israel's God after Joseph's death.
When we get to the king of Egypt - Pharaoh - at the time of Moses and the subject of Ex4:21, this is said about him just before this in the Text:
NKJ Ex3:15-20 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' 16 "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; 17 "and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey."' 18 "Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, 'The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' 19 "But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.
The affliction of Israel in Egypt has been going on for a few generations after Joseph's death and the new king of Ex1:8. This is not the same king as Ex3:15 above who is the Pharoah of Ex4:21. We can see his affliction of Israel above and as God says in Ex3:19 "I am sure that the king will not let you go, not even by a mighty hand."
This is the history and the context for Ex4:21 and it's clear what God thinks of Pharoah before that verse. I'm comfortable that Pharoah is in a line of kings with hard hearts towards Israel and their God and that the above Scriptures in close context to Ex4:21 and Scripture from Ex1:8 on make clear what the line of Pharaohs thought about Israel and their God.
Additionally, there is a lot of research and debate as to who these Pharaohs were. This linked excerpt provides some substantial research and thinking on the matter. It has this to say about the Pharaoh they believe is this above discussed Pharaoh (my highlight of #3.c:
- Thutmoses III was great, powerful and prideful vs. weak Amenhotep II
- Thutmoses III was one of the greatest and most powerful Pharaohs of Egypt. He is in the class of Herod the Great in 39 BC and Hadrian in 135 AD. Thutmoses III’s son, Amenhotep II, was small, insignificant and unaccomplished in contrast.
- The 17 campaigns of Thutmoses III into the promised land and surrounding areas (Levant), are numbered successively throughout his reign. His 17 campaigns started in the second year and then one campaign each year for the next 17 years, then they ended in 1446! This means that his last campaign ended in year 18 after Hatshepsut died! Thutmoses III’s military conquests softened up Canaan for the eventual conquest of Joshua 40 years later.
- When you are looking for a powerful prideful Pharaoh that God wanted to humble, Thutmoses III is the man.
- This where Thutmoses III’s second born son, Amenhotep II is a poor candidate for the pharaoh of the exodus because he was weak and ineffective! Amenhotep II had only two military campaigns, in contrast to his father’s seventeen.
- Thutmoses III conquered the Mitanni with a powerful surprise attack on his eighth campaign (1436 BC), but Amenhotep II merely signed peace treaties with Mitanni in year 9 of his reign (1422 BC).
Romans 1, despite the fact that God can be known through creation and innately, doesn't record any coming to faith. Universally, they reject God.
Those in Acts 2 respond to the preaching of Peter. At this point you have gone beyond nature and conscience.
So again, do you have an example from scripture where someone is saved from creation or conscience?
Those in Acts 2 respond to the preaching of Peter. At this point you have gone beyond nature and conscience.
So again, do you have an example from scripture where someone is saved from creation or conscience?
Show me from the passage where it claims that those who came to know God through creation and conscience didn't reject God. It clearly states in verse 21 that those who knew God in these ways did not glorify Him, nor were thankful. Instead, it says they became vain in their imaginations and their hearts were darkened. It gets worse from there. Further, at no point is an alternative outcome presented. There is no suggestion that knowing God through nature or innately leads to salvation. Any suggestion of this is an addition to what the passage states.
But the good news is the source of faith, and not mentioned in Romans 1. Having to add the gospel leaves your original premise of knowing God only through creation and conscience wanting. Now you are adding God Himself to the equation, and I, of course, agree with that because it has been my point all along.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
Not everyone that God manifests Himself to falls under this category. It even specified it is WHO HINDER THE TRUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Clearly not every person without God is doing that.
who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
Not everyone that God manifests Himself to falls under this category. It even specified it is WHO HINDER THE TRUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Clearly not every person without God is doing that.
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The Good News being the source of Faith is some loaded language that I'll pass on for now.
The Good News God promised through His Prophets in the Tanakh about Messiah is what Paul starts Romans with (Rom1:1-2).
What I said earlier about The Gospel of God's Son was intended to be that Jesus is His Son and that message came at the time we both know and is the culmination of a lot of progressive revelation in history that Paul is touching on in the first 3 verses of Romans.
If we take your statement as is, then we'd have to ask you if you mean the Good News proclaimed to Abraham, or the Good News that according to what you're saying had to have been told to Abel and to everyone thereafter that Heb11 says had Faith throughout history.
Belief in God is Faith and that belief has been in place at least since Abel as you know I've been pointing out elsewhere. I don't think I'm adding God to the equation. God is always in view re: Faith. Jesus made that clear by constantly pointing to God our Father. Paul starts Romans with God promised the Gospel in the Hebrew Scriptures.
The Good News God promised through His Prophets in the Tanakh about Messiah is what Paul starts Romans with (Rom1:1-2).
What I said earlier about The Gospel of God's Son was intended to be that Jesus is His Son and that message came at the time we both know and is the culmination of a lot of progressive revelation in history that Paul is touching on in the first 3 verses of Romans.
If we take your statement as is, then we'd have to ask you if you mean the Good News proclaimed to Abraham, or the Good News that according to what you're saying had to have been told to Abel and to everyone thereafter that Heb11 says had Faith throughout history.
Belief in God is Faith and that belief has been in place at least since Abel as you know I've been pointing out elsewhere. I don't think I'm adding God to the equation. God is always in view re: Faith. Jesus made that clear by constantly pointing to God our Father. Paul starts Romans with God promised the Gospel in the Hebrew Scriptures.
