Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

What is your point?

What is your actual stand?

Say it plainly, please.

Do you believe that as of this moment?
That Jesus is. Or is not, not God... as God wants Himself to be presented to man?

Let's stop wasting time, please.

Lord Jesus is Lord of lords, not an angel; angels are servants of God, no angel is God himself; therefore, when an angel appears in God's capacity, that's a medium through which God communicates with his people. As much as your avatar "Genez" is not yourself in flesh and blood, but a tool to communicate with other folks on this forum, so is God's angels.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”? (Heb. 1:5)

 

[Lovette]

So you are saying that it was impossible for God, the Word, to do what an angel did. " For with God NOTHING shall be impossible." Luke 1:37 The angels are spirits also but sometimes can take on human form, without being born of a woman. P.S. I never implied that the angel who slew 185,00 men was the Word, but I'm also not saying that it wasn't possible.

Pre-incarnate means pre-incarnate, whatever the angel did was God the Father's action through that angel. It's impossible for God to lie and go back on his own words, in this case, an angel being a servant of God following God's order.

 

[Lovette]

Christ is NOT ruling over the kings of the earth, yet.

That's because the antichrist is ruling in his place, "anti" doesn't just mean "against", but also "in place of". Nonetheless, he's the king of kings and lord of lords, the whole earth belongs to him.

 

[Genez]

Lord Jesus is Lord of lords, not an angel; angels are servants of God, no angel is God himself; therefore, when an angel appears in God's capacity, that's a medium through which God communicates with his people. As much as your avatar "Genez" is not yourself in flesh and blood, but a tool to communicate with other folks on this forum, so is God's angels.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”? (Heb. 1:5)

It wasn't me that said Jesus appeared as an angel.
I said it was the Holy Spirit appearing in the form of an angel.
The Angel of Jehovah.

For angels are spirits.
In contrast to angels, Jesus' humanity is a soul.

And the Holy Spirit, like Jesus, is God.
So the Angel of Jehovah was referred to as God.

.........

 

[Lovette]

It wasn't me that said Jesus appeared as an angel.
I said it was the Holy Spirit appearing in the form of an angel.
The Angel of Jehovah.

For angels are spirits.
In contrast to angels, Jesus' humanity is a soul.

And the Holy Spirit, like Jesus, is God.
So the Angel of Jehovah was referred to as God.

.........


.........

An angel of God is still an angel, acting on God the Father's behalf, passing orders to Moses. He didn't refer to God in third person as much as a microphone doesn't refer to the speaker in third person.

 

[Needevidence]

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:29

.​

yes agreed - but that doesn’t say he died as an atonement

 

[MicaelOhagan]

No.

Was Mary sinless
That's an unusual question
Maybe guided by the teachings of the catholic church
I can state without any doubt
And The Spirit in me is in agreement
Jesus IS the only sinless one
I could quote a whole pile of bible verses to back up this statement
If you have The Holy Spirit in your heart
Simply ask Him
He'll soon tell you the same

 

[Needevidence]

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement (Greek = katallagē).

the word "atonement" is translated from the Greek word katallagē which means reconciliation (restoration) as the resulting of Christ exactly (precisely) exchanging His righteousness (blood) for our guilt (HELPS Word-studies).

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, katallagē means the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.


2 Corinthians 5:18-20

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (Greek = katallássō) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (Greek = katallagē);

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (Greek = katallássō) the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (Greek = katallagē).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled (Greek = katallássō) to God.

The word "reconciled" in 2 Cor 5:18 and 20 and the word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 are translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes, hence the plea "we pray you, in Christ's stead be ye reconciled " in 2 Cor 5:20. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not provided all that is necessary for them to be reconciled, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.

If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).


The death of the Lord Jesus Christ was required because without shedding of blood, there is no remission.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


... it is the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ that makes atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

.

Yes agreed to the point your making.

But Atonement is the action or sacrifice and Reconciliation is not, they have different meaning. Also doesn’t say Jesus died as an atonement – Leviticus 17:11 – is what I’m looking for regarding Jesus. I was trying to find something specific – there must be something or I’m missing something

 

[Needevidence]

The entire OT Law was about atonement for sin, and Jesus said he was the complete fulfillment of the Law.

Dan 9.24 Seventy ‘sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Mat 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Yes agreed OT – Mat 5:17 would them imply all laws and rituals should be kept. Then you also have passages like Mat 12:7 & 9:13 ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ – any way this will distract to a long argued point of should keep the law. I was looking to find something specific where is says Jesus died as an atonement

 

[dkontner]

Yes agreed to the point your making.

But Atonement is the action or sacrifice and Reconciliation is not, they have different meaning. Also doesn’t say Jesus died as an atonement – Leviticus 17:11 – is what I’m looking for regarding Jesus. I was trying to find something specific – there must be something or I’m missing something

Are YOU telling God what an atonement is? Good luck

 

[Needevidence]

Are YOU telling God what an atonement is? Good luck

sorry - what you talking about?

 

[randyk]

Yes agreed OT – Mat 5:17 would them imply all laws and rituals should be kept. Then you also have passages like Mat 12:7 & 9:13 ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ – any way this will distract to a long argued point of should keep the law. I was looking to find something specific where is says Jesus died as an atonement

Yes, Jesus made this statement (in Mat 5) while still under the era of the Law, and stated, quite clearly, that he still expected Israel to keep every requirement of the Law. But as Messiah he came to "fulfill the Law.* You don't understand that if you don't realize he came as Messiah, not to perpetuate the Law, but rather, to fulfill the Law.

Understanding the complete fulfillment of the Law meant making grand atonement for Israel in a different way than the sacrificed animals made temporary atonement for Israel's sins. I say *temporary atonement* because it was known that observing all of the Temple Laws did not and would not bring final deliverance of Israel from their enemies or "save" the nation.

So Jesus died on the cross and represented God's eternal forgiveness for those willing to repent by following him. This was, in essence, the different kind of "atonement" he came to bring, which is why you find it so hard to use an OT term to describe what Jesus did.

 

[MicaelOhagan]

I am the immaculate conception to Bernadette Soubarous.

Nope
Jesus Is the immaculate conception
That's was a cunning reframe by the evil one
Mary was the conceiver
Not the conception
It's cunning
But blindingly obvious to those who can see
Sorry

 

[Needevidence]

Yes, Jesus made this statement (in Mat 5) while still under the era of the Law, and stated, quite clearly, that he still expected Israel to keep every requirement of the Law. But as Messiah he came to "fulfill the Law.* You don't understand that if you don't realize he came as Messiah, not to perpetuate the Law, but rather, to fulfill the Law.

Understanding the complete fulfillment of the Law meant making grand atonement for Israel in a different way than the sacrificed animals made temporary atonement for Israel's sins. I say *temporary atonement* because it was known that observing all of the Temple Laws did not and would not bring final deliverance of Israel from their enemies or "save" the nation.

So Jesus died on the cross and represented God's eternal forgiveness for those willing to repent by following him. This was, in essence, the different kind of "atonement" he came to bring, which is why you find it so hard to use an OT term to describe what Jesus did.

Yes agreed

1) going back to the initial point - I’m looking for a passage where it says Jesus died as an atonement

2) Mat 5 under the 'era of the Law' - based on what and when no longer under the law?

3) I wasn’t looking at the OT - looking at NT - only raised OT due to it being raised

4) temporary atonement - based on what?

 

[randyk]

Yes agreed

1) going back to the initial point - I’m looking for a passage where it says Jesus died as an atonement

2) Mat 5 under the 'era of the Law' - based on what and when no longer under the law?

3) I wasn’t looking at the OT - looking at NT - only raised OT due to it being raised

4) temporary atonement - based on what?

1) Temporary Atonement based on the reality realized during the long era of the OT Prophets, that Israel could not retain her covenant with God and its associated blessings purely under the system of the Law of Moses. The Messiah had to come to somehow rescue Israel from the inadequacy of repeated offerings for Sin.

2) Saying you only want NT info would ignore the importance of understanding NT truth in the language of OT fulfillment. The OT concept of animal atonement is said in the NT to be fulfilled under a new system. Understanding the difference in those systems is essential in understanding how Christ became the final atonement for Israel and for the world.

3) The Law was always at its core a covenant system. The Law is no longer valid when the violation of the covenant embracing it becomes so great that the deal has been broken irrevocably and terminated. That happened when the veil was rent.

4) Jesus was a sacrifice to forgive sin. That means his death was the atonement, as indicated in the Hebrews passages I gave you. It was not an animal atonement under the Law, but rather, its fulfillment. The death of Jesus and his offer of forgiveness was in fact the atonement the NT describes in New Covenant terms.

 

[Needevidence]

1) Temporary Atonement based on the reality realized during the long era of the OT Prophets, that Israel could not retain her covenant with God and its associated blessings purely under the system of the Law of Moses. The Messiah had to come to somehow rescue Israel from the inadequacy of repeated offerings for Sin.

2) Saying you only want NT info would ignore the importance of understanding NT truth in the language of OT fulfillment. The OT concept of animal atonement is said in the NT to be fulfilled under a new system. Understanding the difference in those systems is essential in understanding how Christ became the final atonement for Israel and for the world.

3) The Law was always at its core a covenant system. The Law is no longer valid when the violation of the covenant embracing it becomes so great that the deal has been broken irrevocably and terminated. That happened when the veil was rent.

4) Jesus was a sacrifice to forgive sin. That means his death was the atonement, as indicated in the Hebrews passages I gave you. It was not an animal atonement under the Law, but rather, its fulfillment. The death of Jesus and his offer of forgiveness was in fact the atonement the NT describes in New Covenant terms.

noted - but not represent clearly what I said, anyway,

1) any passage to support this?

The rest - the Hebrew passages don’t confirm Jesus died as an atonement - any passages that say that?

 

[randyk]

noted - but not represent clearly what I said, anyway,

1) any passage to support this?

The rest - the Hebrew passages don’t confirm Jesus died as an atonement - any passages that say that?

Yes, it did say that. You seem to want to prove the OT concept of atonement was in process in the NT fulfillment of atonement? As I said, that thought is based on the false presumption that OT atonement is still functioning as it was under the OT system?

It does not. The NT sense of Christ's atonement is him dying a martyr's death and then offering forgiveness for those who choose to live through him. The OT sense of atonement under the Law is very different, and you won't be able to prove that process continues in Christ and in the New Testament.

Heb 2.17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 9.11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

Heb 9.26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[Genez]

An angel of God is still an angel, acting on God the Father's behalf, passing orders to Moses. He didn't refer to God in third person as much as a microphone doesn't refer to the speaker in third person.

Please... Learn the difference.

You are a son (child) of God.
But?
You are by no means not THE Son of God.

Likewise?

Yes...
There are angels of Jehovah.

But what Moses witnessed to?
Was THE Angel of Jehovah.
Not 'an" angel of Jehovah.

We all have to learn to become sensitive to these details in order to discern the truth accurately.

.......

 

[Genez]

yes agreed - but that doesn’t say he died as an atonement

Come on now?
Are you playing a game with me?

What was a lamb used for in atonement?

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT YET?

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, ​

and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7​

​

For whose sake were you asking that question?

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ​

“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!​

​

John 1:29​

 

[JayWalker]

I am the immaculate conception to Bernadette Soubarous.

I have have really good internet - Immaculate Reception

Jesus was a sacrifice to forgive sin. That means his death was the atonement, as indicated in the Hebrews passages I gave you. It was not an animal atonement under the Law, but rather, its fulfillment. The death of Jesus and his offer of forgiveness was in fact the atonement the NT describes in New Covenant terms.

And the benefits of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are ONLY applicable to those that abide IN Him who bear fruit - read John 15

But what Moses witnessed to?
Was THE Angel of Jehovah.

That was the Lord's personal angel who spoke in behalf of the Lord as a messenger of the Lord.

It was not the Lord Himself since the Lord is not an angel.