Were Miracles only for the Apostolic Age?

[Ramon]

Elizabeth.

Jesus has the same power today as he did yesterday. Jesus is not dead. He is alive. And he has given power to those, ''that believe.'' To perform the same miracles, and even more as he did when he was on this earth. Just because some people did not believe did not keep him from doing miracles. Only those who doubted did not see the miracles.

Salvation is from sin to love and show mercy to others, as he showed us mercy. If the Lord wants to prove his message by such things, far be it from me to prevent him. I have also been healed miraculously. Jesus said the signs follow them that believe. ''Them that believe.'' Though they don't guarantee salvation.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Elizabeth.

Jesus has the same power today as he did yesterday. Jesus is not dead. He is alive. And he has given power to those, ''that believe.'' To perform the same miracles, and even more as he did when he was on this earth. Just because some people did not believe did not keep him from doing miracles. Only those who doubted did not see the miracles.

Salvation is from sin to love and show mercy to others, as he showed us mercy. If the Lord wants to prove his message by such things, far be it from me to prevent him. I have also been healed miraculously. Jesus said the signs follow them that believe. ''Them that believe.'' Though they don't guarantee salvation.

May Jesus bless you.

I'm sorry. I always thought that even in the first century where we ALL agree miracles were performed that they were given to man to help others believe.

They weren't performed to or given to believers for their own benefit. If God is going to heal every Christian through miracles then what is the point in Heaven? Aren't we to suffer so our reward is Heaven? Sounds to me like God is already rewarding some through lack of suffering.

What you may call a miracle I call a blessing.

 

[zone]

I love you.

Beth we know this because Jesus is faithful to keep us in the truth.
The Holy Spirit leads into ALL truth.

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

i love you too.
(the historic faith is under great assault, as i assume you know...there's nothing new under the sun).
zone

 

[jonathanbchristian]

I believe miracles and prophecys are for today. I don't really see the doctrine of Cessationist in the Bible. No where does the Bible say that the Church is finished; besides those people have been dead 2000 years. We still need the work of the Holy Spirit in our generation. We need miracles and the power of God, today, not 2000 years ago for some other group.

 

[zone]

Miracle

A true miracle is an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38).

It is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power.

"The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated, but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet.

The simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superceding, but directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them."
​

God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature's ordinary movements.

cont.........

 

[zone]

MIRACLES cont....

In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate miracles:

1. Semeion, a “sign”, i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38,39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and working of God; the seal of a higher power.
2. Terata, “wonders;” wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts 2:19).
3. Dunameis, “might works;” works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power.
4. Erga, “works;” the works of Him who is “wonderful in working” (John 5:20, 36).

Miracles are seals of a divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the impression of the presence and power of God.

Where miracles are there certainly God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God's messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, “God bears me witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles.”

The credibility of miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses. The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers, following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any facts of history well authenticated are credible.

Miracles, it is said, are contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent testimony.

An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles are not impossible, nor are they incredible.

CONT.....

 

[zone]

MIRACLES...cont....

List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)

Miracles, including list of biblical miracles (WebBible? Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net << click

 

[loveschild]

Matthew 6:10

King James Version (KJV)


10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


Your not waiting for heaven. Heaven is to be for now.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Matthew 6:10

King James Version (KJV)


10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


Your not waiting for heaven. Heaven is to be for now.

Wait. I am not sure if I understand what you are saying. Please correct me if I interpret this wrong...

Are you saying that Heaven is on earth? Our reward is not eternal life?

 

[pickles]

Beth:
certain sects believe physical healing is guaranteed in the Atonement.
they are generally found wthin the Word/Faith movement.
this is why we have "faith healers", and why people are told if they have enough "faith" God will not only heal them, but that it is God's will that no one (christians?) ever be sick.
the more extreme fanatics say all sickness is demon possession.

this site compares the REAL Atonement to the Word Faith version:

Atonement in Word of Faith . . .


One of the most visible movements of Christendom today is the Word of Faith movement. One can hardly turn on a television without coming into contact with one of its purveyors. Millions of Christians follow the charismatic leaders that are displayed on a number of Christian networks. Most are not aware of the origins or teachings of Faith theology, particularly as it relates to essential Christian doctrine.

At the heart of Christianity is the doctrine of atonement. In this doctrine we understand the work of Jesus and the love He and the Father shared for their creation. It is important for Christians to understand the nature of Christ's sacrifice and how we became reconciled to the creator of the universe.

The Faith movement has introduced cultic teaching about the sacrifice of Jesus and diminished His finished work. This article will first explore the orthodox view of atonement and then examine the origins of the Faith movement and its views on atonement. The article will conclude with an analysis of the Faith movement's theology on the atonement in light of the Bible and reason.

cont....

Atonement in Word of Faith Movement

I do wish I was able to bring both posts on this.
Zone, I do hope you dont see me following any whim of doctrine, I dont think you do, but want to make sure.
You have seen me speak to the true and greatest healing being the perfect of Jesus Christ in one, so that the flesh no longer matters.
Elizabeth, I agree, the true compleat healing, or completion is in Jesus, this is what I had hoped to speak to in my last post.
But we do always have to keep in mind that ones walk is brought in Jesus, and untill one has died to the flesh compleatly, the understanding of perfect in Jesus is seen only in part.
We still see only in part , Jesus brings before and in each person as needed acording to the will of God.
Are we not promised that He will bring in us that compleation?
Much spoken to here does rest in one's definition of a mirical.
All you posted about miricals still fits in what I see as a mirical.
I guess it is how one sees all that is in Jesus , from God Our Father.
I see everything that glorifies God as done by His hand.

Its interesting how all apear to agree, that miricals are for faith and of faith.
But when the perfect comes, Jesus compleat in one, these miricals or gifts are no longer, as they speak in flesh and are imperfect, but once Jesus is compleat in one, .
The perfect comes!
I just do not look to anything like sesation, In fact never heard of it till I came here.
I simply look to Gods word, given in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
Like I used to speak to with our pastor, when one is learning, these things serve to bring faith,
but when one has recieved the perfect, they no longer need these things, as Jesus compleats.
But they still continue, as they are needed for those still learning from and coming to the compleat in Jesus.
I also see this as applying to the indivigual body made comleat, and to the church body compleat.

But again, remember, I dont always get everything one posts, I just do my best here.
As I said when one no longer seeks that of the flesh, but the presance, perfect in Jesus.

Finally, I understand what is posted as the definition of miricals, but to me, everything is Gods creation ,everything I see is His mirical.
I do not ask others agree, I speak only to what is divine, His glory as He is creator and God!

In Jesus, God bless.
pickles

 

[Elizabeth619]

Miracles are for the faithful?
Miracles were for those who did not believe to show the will of God.

If miracles are for the faithful then why don't all Christians experience these things?
Why are there still Chrisstians with handicaps and ailments? One Christian isnt better than the other is it? Why are some worthy of miracles and not all?

 

[loveschild]

Wait. I am not sure if I understand what you are saying. Please correct me if I interpret this wrong...

Are you saying that Heaven is on earth? Our reward is not eternal life?

Matthew 6:4
So that your deeds of charity may be in secret; and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Luke 6:38
Give, and [gifts] will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will they pour into [the pouch formed by] the bosom [of your robe and used as a bag]. For with the measure you deal out [with the measure you use when you confer benefits on others], it will be measured back to you.

I'm saying we blessed, reward while we are earth. And we are to have heaven on earth. There is still the heaven.

What I'm saying is we don't wait for heaven to be happy and at peace. All of that we are to be living in now. Some are wishing they would be dead or the rapture would come cause their lives on earth are such a mess. It isn't to be that way on earth.

Plus the glory of God is on earth all the time. Feeling the presence of God. Feeling his angles touch an all.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Matthew 6:4
So that your deeds of charity may be in secret; and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Luke 6:38
Give, and [gifts] will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will they pour into [the pouch formed by] the bosom [of your robe and used as a bag]. For with the measure you deal out [with the measure you use when you confer benefits on others], it will be measured back to you.

I'm saying we blessed, reward while we are earth. And we are to have heaven on earth. There is still the heaven.

What I'm saying is we don't wait for heaven to be happy and at peace. All of that we are to be living in now. Some are wishing they would be dead or the rapture would come cause their lives on earth are such a mess. It isn't to be that way on earth.

Plus the glory of God is on earth all the time. Feeling the presence of God. Feeling his angles touch an all.

OH OK. GOTCHA

thanks for clarrifying that. i understand what you are saying now

 

[zone]

I do wish I was able to bring both posts on this.
Zone, I do hope you dont see me following any whim of doctrine, I dont think you do, but want to make sure.
You have seen me speak to the true and greatest healing being the perfect of Jesus Christ in one, so that the flesh no longer matters.
Elizabeth, I agree, the true compleat healing, or completion is in Jesus, this is what I had hoped to speak to in my last post.
But we do always have to keep in mind that ones walk is brought in Jesus, and untill one has died to the flesh compleatly, the understanding of perfect in Jesus is seen only in part.
We still see only in part , Jesus brings before and in each person as needed acording to the will of God.
Are we not promised that He will bring in us that compleation?
Much spoken to here does rest in one's definition of a mirical.
All you posted about miricals still fits in what I see as a mirical.
I guess it is how one sees all that is in Jesus , from God Our Father.
I see everything that glorifies God as done by His hand.

Its interesting how all apear to agree, that miricals are for faith and of faith.
But when the perfect comes, Jesus compleat in one, these miricals or gifts are no longer, as they speak in flesh and are imperfect, but once Jesus is compleat in one, .
The perfect comes!
I just do not look to anything like sesation, In fact never heard of it till I came here.
I simply look to Gods word, given in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
Like I used to speak to with our pastor, when one is learning, these things serve to bring faith,
but when one has recieved the perfect, they no longer need these things, as Jesus compleats.
But they still continue, as they are needed for those still learning from and coming to the compleat in Jesus.
I also see this as applying to the indivigual body made comleat, and to the church body compleat.

But again, remember, I dont always get everything one posts, I just do my best here.
As I said when one no longer seeks that of the flesh, but the presance, perfect in Jesus.

Finally, I understand what is posted as the definition of miricals, but to me, everything is Gods creation ,everything I see is His mirical.
I do not ask others agree, I speak only to what is divine, His glory as He is creator and God!

In Jesus, God bless.
pickles

pickles.
i only posted the Biblical definition of MIRACLE.
what God is doing in our lives is PROVIDENCE.
yes He heals! yes He answers prayer!
yes He loves and cares for us.

its just that miracles are something specific: when God suspends the Laws of Nature to perform something only He can do, that is outside the realm of man. that's all i meant. it's just that we use the word sometimes to mean one thing, when it really means something else (like the parting of the Red Sea).

i have have had supernatural interventions in my life. many times. this is God working.
i love you pickles. i hope you know that (it may not ultimately matter, but i do).
i pour over posts you make, and have many tucked away.
you are precious in my sight (we have certain struggles in common, too....i know a little of what you go through)
in Jesus,
zone,

 

[loveschild]

Miracles are for the faithful?
Miracles were for those who did not believe to show the will of God.

If miracles are for the faithful then why don't all Christians experience these things?
Why are there still Chrisstians with handicaps and ailments? One Christian isnt better than the other is it? Why are some worthy of miracles and not all?

Whether a Christian is better than another isn't for us to judge. God loves all the same. But he can be more please with one than another and still love them the same don't you think?

The widows mite. She gave all she had and God was pleased with her. He knew there others there who could give much more but didn't. Every time a person gives in is written down.

How do you think we get reward in heaven? We don't deserve anything but hell. The blood we are saved but what we do on earth counts.

Says if you give it will be given back plus more.

A good servant bring millions of souls to Christ will be reward more than one who only brought one soul right?

Then there's the some will rule nations when we come back to earth from heaven. I would say that would be a person who was good at being a leader now wouldn't you?

We are told to bare much fruit while we are on earth. We are rewarded on earth and in heaven by this.

How bout one who never reads the word? One who reads all the time. Do you think God can be pleased with one over the other?

As far as why one gets a healing or not lots of times it because one really believes and one really doesn't.

Then there's the binding and casting out devils. Some are sick because of a demonic hold. They don't believe in such a thing so they don't command it to get out. They die for lack of knowledge the bible says.

Some are sick because they never would have turned to God if it hadn't been for that sickness.

Some are sick cause they don't take care of their bodies.

Some don't ask to be healed. They have not because they ask not. They don't believe in healing. Some want to die. Some doubt all the time and don't trust God. Some don't keep asking and pray till they are healed.

There are so many answers.

Some whether they are sick or not nothing will stop them from loving God and in their sickness they are a living testimony.

Miracles are miracles. I've never heard there for only so and so. I heard stories of people who had angles come and save them and they weren't even believers and they said it must of been something like God or something. what happens when thousand hear of the angel?

Healings can a great testimony to all. For the believer or to bring someone who is lost in.

Sorry I ran on so long.

 

[pickles]

pickles.
i only posted the Biblical definition of MIRACLE.
what God is doing in our lives is PROVIDENCE.
yes He heals! yes He answers prayer!
yes He loves and cares for us.

its just that miracles are something specific: when God suspends the Laws of Nature to perform something only He can do, that is outside the realm of man. that's all i meant. it's just that we use the word sometimes to mean one thing, when it really means something else (like the parting of the Red Sea).

i have have had supernatural interventions in my life. many times. this is God working.
i love you pickles. i hope you know that (it may not ultimately matter, but i do).
i pour over posts you make, and have many tucked away.
you are precious in my sight (we have certain struggles in common, too....i know a little of what you go through)
in Jesus,
zone,

Zone, I see Jesus in your heart as well, hopefully we all will learn to look to this first in each other.
We would have alot less misunderstandings if we did.
As to the previous post?
I figured as much, but wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood.
Although the only important truth is God's.
I know there is a definition of mirical, but I see everything as God's mirical.
God made the sea, so parting it seems simple, compared the creation of the sea, God made man, so what makes healing any greater, all is His glory in my eyes.
One may see the parting of the sea as greater, but a simple comperisen here...
I can bake a cake, cutting it is less than the baking.
Too often we see only the world, I see all as God's amazing mirical, from a grain of sand to the sand that rests under the sea.
From a tear, to the waters that cover the earth and are in the heavens.
I understand that one sees the altering of what is seen as normal by Gods hand as being the definition of a mirical.
But , everything is by God's hand, so any movement is but a gentle breath of God to my eyes.
The true mirical is the heart compleat , content and made perfect in the love of Jesus.
As it requires the choice of man in faith, who is'nt perfect.

God bless.
pickles

 

[VW]

Miracles are for everyone.

The actual fact is that God does love everyone, but not everyone loves Him. Many miracles happen to both the saved and the unsaved.

Jesus did not just heal the sick in order to prove who He was. In truth, no one believed Him because of the works, even though He pleaded with them to believe in Him, even if only because of the works.

I am one of those who considers each day now a miracle. I have nearly died several times, twice by suffocation. Several times in severe accidents. Twice by health problems. (The latest was a severe stroke, which I recovered from with absolutely no ill effects, back in November.)

I don't believe because of these miracles.

I believe because of God living in me, the inner witness who is God.

In Christ,

 

[Ramon]

Elizabeth.

May times Jesus said, ''According to your faith, be it unto you.''

The Lord saw who had faith to be healed, and they were healed according to their faith. The Pharisees could receive nothing from him because of skepticism/doubt/unbelief. In his own country around his own people, he could do no miracles, because of this.

In the same way, there are people who prevent his healing because of their own hangups. Nevertheless, Jesus gives this testimony:

Matt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

And we know who blinds the eyes and closes the ears of these.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[AnandaHya]

Zone, I see Jesus in your heart as well, hopefully we all will learn to look to this first in each other.
We would have alot less misunderstandings if we did.
As to the previous post?
I figured as much, but wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood.
Although the only important truth is God's.
I know there is a definition of mirical, but I see everything as God's mirical.
God made the sea, so parting it seems simple, compared the creation of the sea, God made man, so what makes healing any greater, all is His glory in my eyes.
One may see the parting of the sea as greater, but a simple comperisen here...
I can bake a cake, cutting it is less than the baking.
Too often we see only the world, I see all as God's amazing mirical, from a grain of sand to the sand that rests under the sea.
From a tear, to the waters that cover the earth and are in the heavens.
I understand that one sees the altering of what is seen as normal by Gods hand as being the definition of a mirical.
But , everything is by God's hand, so any movement is but a gentle breath of God to my eyes.
The true mirical is the heart compleat , content and made perfect in the love of Jesus.
As it requires the choice of man in faith, who is'nt perfect.

God bless.
pickles

I don't think it matters if people agree to call it a miracle or a blessing as long as we give thanks to God and recognize in our hearts and souls His love for us and the world and how all good things come from Him. His greatness and majesty is beyond words, Hallejuah.

thank you for your words Pickles. I like this thought especially "everything is by God's hand, so any movement is but a gentle breath of God to my eyes"

 

[pickles]

I don't think it matters if people agree to call it a miracle or a blessing as long as we give thanks to God and recognize in our hearts and souls His love for us and the world and how all good things come from Him. His greatness and majesty is beyond words, Hallejuah.

thank you for your words Pickles. I like this thought especially "everything is by God's hand, so any movement is but a gentle breath of God to my eyes"

Your right about agreeing, I m not worried about that.
Its just the great wonder and awe of all that is Our God that amazes me, I just hope to share the joy of it all.

God bless.
pickles