Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Cameron143]

The thread is strictly about the legal aspect of Justification, when is it legally applied before the Throne of God. When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ? I believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly. What do you say ?

It depends. It was always God's plan to save a portion of mankind. So if one believes that God's intenion is sufficient, then yes. If one believes that it is referring to the cross, OT saints would have come to faith before their sins were paid for.

 

[brightfame52]

It depends. It was always God's plan to save a portion of mankind. So if one believes that God's intenion is sufficient, then yes. If one believes that it is referring to the cross, OT saints would have come to faith before their sins were paid for.

Sounds like works to me, we dont agree. Sounds like you dont believe Christs death for a person Justified them before God prior to their believing, which mean you believe mans faith or act of believing is what Justified them before God, and Christs death alone.

 

[Cameron143]

Sounds like works to me, we dont agree. Sounds like you dont believe Christs death for a person Justified them before God prior to their believing, which mean you believe mans faith or act of believing is what Justified them before God, and Christs death alone.

It's not what I believe at all. But Jesus died after some people believed. So, while I do believe we are justified by Christ's death alone, some people did come to faith before He actually died.

 

[Mem]

It's not what I believe at all. But Jesus died after some people believed. So, while I do believe we are justified by Christ's death alone, some people did come to faith before He actually died.

Is there much difference in believing (or hearing) His word as He gave it before seeing it come to pass than believing afterwards? Would the former be those counted as "more' righteous?

 

[brightfame52]

It's not what I believe at all. But Jesus died after some people believed. So, while I do believe we are justified by Christ's death alone, some people did come to faith before He actually died.

It is what you believe.

 

[Cameron143]

Is there much difference in believing (or hearing) His word as He gave it before seeing it come to pass than believing afterwards? Would the former be those counted as "more' righteous?

To your question no. But I'm trying to establish when brightfame52 believes justification took place.

 

[Cameron143]

It is what you believe.

So...question:
Did justification take place when God decreed or when Jesus said...It is finished?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When Moses lifted up the serpent upon the pole whoever looked would be healed EVERYONE who simply looked. But the British couldn't look could they? Anakim couldn't look, the Egyptians. The promise was made to the Jews only.

have you ever read Romans 2?

Romans 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

salvation is solely by the will of God

We are born again "not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God"

true ... and God's Will is that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

you say it was your will.

nope ... I say it is God's Will that He has chosen to save them that believe

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


You don't like God's Will ??? ... take it up with Him.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

... just another example of brightfame52 ripping a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it in his futile attempt to align Scripture to his erroneous dogma.

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


If you don't believe in Jesus, you are not justified (notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary) ...

Paul says of Grace Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul also said that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


NIV: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness


ESV: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


Here's your favorite ... the Amplified: But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God)


ISV: However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Heb 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Every man here has been freely Justified by Grace through the redemption that is in Jesus and that unconditionally !

The word "man" does not appear in the text. The Lord Jesus Christ tasted death for everyone ... every descendant of Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ's death was sufficient to cover all sins of all mankind.

To say that the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for every single person ... all the iniquity of every single person was laid on Him ... is to deny the greatness of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

When the Lord Jesus Christ said it is finished, it was done, once and for all. That doesn't mean all are believers. God has provided all that is needed ... a person has to believe in God's provision.

To say that Jesus did not die for the whole world is a denial of Who He is and what the Bible says. He tasted death for everyone ... no one was left out.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Unbelief proven

... an unproven claim. You "prove" nothing ... other than you are now one step up from ad hominem.

On the other hand, what has been proved in Post 4007 is that your erroneous dogma is in error.

More unbelief

Another claim you have not proved ... all you have done is rip a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it. It is wholly apparent you do not believe what God has written in Scripture.

Your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma has again failed under the scrutiny of Scripture.

More unbelief of the fact that all men have not faith as stated in 2 Thess 3:2

... rejection of your erroneous dogma does equal rejection of what is written in Scripture.

I have shown you that the text includes the word ἡ, which is the definite article "the".

The ISV correctly renders 2 These 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

Here is the verse from the NLT: Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.

The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Two ways elect sinners are Justified before God before they believe

... quit making stuff up, brightfame52.

First, there is no such thing as "elect sinners".

Secondly, Scripture makes it quite clear when God justifies a person:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He was raised again because of the Justification of them He was delivered for, many of whom had not yet believed.

... newsflash for you, brightfame52 ... the Lord Jesus Christ would have been resurrected from the dead even if no one believed because it was not possible for death to hold Him. I have explained this truth to you many times. When will you believe God's Word exactly as He has written it ???

Acts 2:24 Whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The thread is strictly about the legal aspect of Justification, when is it legally applied before the Throne of God. When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ? I believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly. What do you say ?

what Scripture says ... God imputes righteousness when a person believes:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Your problem is that you believe faith = works ... and Scripture specifically tells us faith is not works:

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Again, it is God Who justifies ... when God is the Object of faith, God justifies a person.

if a person places his or her faith in gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... righteousness is not imputed because gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... cannot impute righteousness to anyone.

Only God can impute righteousness to a person ...

 

[brightfame52]

Raised again for our Justification !

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

This is perhaps the clearest scripture declaration setting forth the awesome Truth that sinners, offenders, transgressors that Christ died for, were by His death, Justified before God, for the phrase "was raised again for [on the account of]our justification." declares it !

The word FOR here is the greek word preposition Dia and means:

the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1. by reason of
   on account of
   because of for this reason
   therefore
2. on this account
   
   Now what can be so clear of a statement than this, that those whom sins Christ was delivered up for, are here declared to be, shown to be Justified by His being raised up !

24

 

[brightfame52]

... just another example of brightfame52 ripping a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it in his futile attempt to align Scripture to his erroneous dogma.

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


If you don't believe in Jesus, you are not justified (notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary) ...





Paul also said that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


NIV: However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness


ESV: And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


Here's your favorite ... the Amplified: But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God)


ISV: However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness




The word "man" does not appear in the text. The Lord Jesus Christ tasted death for everyone ... every descendant of Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ's death was sufficient to cover all sins of all mankind.

To say that the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for every single person ... all the iniquity of every single person was laid on Him ... is to deny the greatness of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

When the Lord Jesus Christ said it is finished, it was done, once and for all. That doesn't mean all are believers. God has provided all that is needed ... a person has to believe in God's provision.

To say that Jesus did not die for the whole world is a denial of Who He is and what the Bible says. He tasted death for everyone ... no one was left out.
.

Another example of your unbelief in Justification by the Grace of God !

 

[brightfame52]

... an unproven claim. You "prove" nothing ... other than you are now one step up from ad hominem.

On the other hand, what has been proved in Post 4007 is that your erroneous dogma is in error.





Another claim you have not proved ... all you have done is rip a verse from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it. It is wholly apparent you do not believe what God has written in Scripture.

Your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma has again failed under the scrutiny of Scripture.





... rejection of your erroneous dogma does equal rejection of what is written in Scripture.

I have shown you that the text includes the word ἡ, which is the definite article "the".

The ISV correctly renders 2 These 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

Here is the verse from the NLT: Pray, too, that we will be rescued from wicked and evil people, for not everyone is a believer.

The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith.
.

More unbelief in the fact that all men have not faith 2 Thess 3:2
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

John Gill writes:

for all men have not faith: no man has faith of himself, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and it is only given to the elect of God, who are ordained unto eternal life, and therefore it is called the faith of God's elect; all mankind have it not, none but Christ's sheep; and the reason why others have it not is, because they are not of his sheep. This is a truth; but rather the true sense of the words is, that all that are professors of religion, and members of churches, and even all that are preachers of the word, have not faith. They may have an historical and temporary faith and the faith of miracles, and even all faith but the true faith; they may profess to believe, and yet not believe, as Simon Magus, and his followers seem to be intended here; for this is given as a reason why the apostle desired to be delivered from the above men.

 

[brightfame52]

what Scripture says ... God imputes righteousness when a person believes:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Your problem is that you believe faith = works ... and Scripture specifically tells us faith is not works:

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Again, it is God Who justifies ... when God is the Object of faith, God justifies a person.

if a person places his or her faith in gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... righteousness is not imputed because gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... cannot impute righteousness to anyone.

Only God can impute righteousness to a person ...

I already have established you reject the Truth of Legal Justification before God on the sole basis of His death for a person, His shed blood for a person, which puts you in unbelief.

 

[Evmur]

have you ever read Romans 2?

Romans 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )





true ... and God's Will is that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life:

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.





nope ... I say it is God's Will that He has chosen to save them that believe

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


You don't like God's Will ??? ... take it up with Him.

.

you think you are smart [mebbe you are] but when you say it is by man's believing you are condemning untold BILLIONS of human souls to hell.

I long ago took up God's will with Him, in a most respectful way I might say. Because I have never believed that untold billions of human souls will be in hell.

I believe we are saved by grace alone. God saves who He will and no-one can stop Him.

You say through faith, the bible says "by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourself [lest reneweddaybyday should boast]"

The faith is not of ourselves it is given to us.

God is most plenteous in grace and that is a much better hope for man than anything we have got.

 

[Evmur]

Sure its predestination there and everywhere else. God created certain people to be vessels of wrath and He fits them for destruction, they had no choice in the matter, just like a pot had no choice in the matter as to why the Potter created it and for what purpose.

The same for the vessels of mercy, they had no choice neither, all was Gods purpose and choice.

See how you go outside scripture? can you even imagine God saying [say in Isaiah] "behold I am God I have created some men and fitted them for destruction, and there is no hope for them ."

Mebbe Zeus would say such a thing.

Was Adam created for destruction, a vessel of wrath? was Eve?

You ought to be very careful how you answer that because some Calvinists believe God put the tree in the garden in order to tempt man into sin.

They do not mean to be wicked but it is a wicked thing to say. That is to make God and the devil partners in man's destruction.

God shows His will for man when He created Adam and Eve ... it was all good.

After they had sinned it was a different story. The fall changed everything.

Of COURSE God foreknew it all but that doesn't mean He fore planned it. That is the assumption Calvin makes which is wrong.

In His foreknowledge God planned SALVATION not damnation. Predestination is not unto salvation but to be conformed to the image of God's Son. See how precious a doctrine predestination is? we all want to be like Jesus and that's what predestination is.

Election [before all worlds were made] says we are chosen in Christ to be a people to declare the praise of His glorious grace. How precious a doctrine is election we all want to praise God's glory in Christ.

it does not exclude one single person from being saved. People may exclude them selves but God excludes nobody.

 

[Evmur]

I see, but only a remnant of mankind will be saved, justified.

That is not what the bible teaches about the remnant.

 

[brightfame52]

See how you go outside scripture? can you even imagine God saying [say in Isaiah] "behold I am God I have created some men and fitted them for destruction, and there is no hope for them ."

Mebbe Zeus would say such a thing.

Was Adam created for destruction, a vessel of wrath? was Eve?

You ought to be very careful how you answer that because some Calvinists believe God put the tree in the garden in order to tempt man into sin.

They do not mean to be wicked but it is a wicked thing to say. That is to make God and the devil partners in man's destruction.

God shows His will for man when He created Adam and Eve ... it was all good.

After they had sinned it was a different story. The fall changed everything.

Of COURSE God foreknew it all but that doesn't mean He fore planned it. That is the assumption Calvin makes which is wrong.

In His foreknowledge God planned SALVATION not damnation. Predestination is not unto salvation but to be conformed to the image of God's Son. See how precious a doctrine predestination is? we all want to be like Jesus and that's what predestination is.

Election [before all worlds were made] says we are chosen in Christ to be a people to declare the praise of His glorious grace. How precious a doctrine is election we all want to praise God's glory in Christ.

it does not exclude one single person from being saved. People may exclude them selves but God excludes nobody.

Oh No its scripture, you just cant receive it.