Who Justifieth the Ungodly
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Correct ... God is not to blame for those who find themselves cast into the lake of fire.
It is also correct that as concerning salvation, God is deserving of all glory and honor.
Let's read Romans 1 again, Evmur, starting at vs 18:
This section of Scripture tells us exactly what occurs in those who do not believe. It's not that they can't believe. It's that the unbeliever rejects the truth when that which may be known of God is revealed to him or her and the believer does not reject.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:18-19 tells us that the truth is suppressed when God makes it plain to them. The word "hold" in vs 18 is the Greek word katechō and it means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When truth is revealed, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.
Romans 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Because they suppress the truth, they do not glorify God, their thinking becomes empty and foolish and, as a result, their foolish hearts become darkened.
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Because the heart is darkened, they profess themselves as wise but in reality they become fools and turn to idolatry.
Romans 1:
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Because of their idolatry, they stray further from God ... they change the truth into a lie and worship creation more than the Creator, Who is blessed forever ... and God does not prevent them.
Rom 1: 26 — because of this, God gives them over to vile affections.
Rom 1: 27 — because they are given over to vile affections, they commit shameful acts and receive in themselves the adequate penalty for their error.
Rom 1: 28 — because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind.
Because they have a reprobate mind, they exhibit all of the behaviors shown in Rom 1:29-32.
Look at how long God holds on to a person before he or she is given over to a reprobate mind. First it's suppress the truth; then the foolish heart becomes darkened; then given up to uncleanness; then given up to vile affections; then reprobate mind. Each time the person is given up to the next downward step, it is because he or she has rejected God.
These are the steps that are taken over the course of many years. God holds on as long as He can, but at some point, as they move further and further away from Him, God lets them go.
It's not like they suppress the truth in unrighteousness one moment and the next moment they have a reprobate mind. There are more than several steps involved in the downward spiral to reprobate mind. And in the Greek the word reprobate means not standing the test; not approved.
And at any point, a person can allow the truth of God's Word to penetrate their heart and God will start working to bring increase to that little kernel of truth they do not restrain. God brings the increase in the heart of those who do not reject Him.
read the Word of God again, Evmur:
Romans 1:
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
In Rom 1:19, we see that nothing was withheld and what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is the individual who restrains.
In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why the ones who reject are without excuse.
Under your scenario, mankind has an excuse because ... according to Evmur ... reneweddaybyday failed ???
It is not God Who withholds ... nor is it the fault of reneweddaybyday, notwithstanding your accusation to the contrary.
a completely presumptuous statement, Evmur. You do not know me ... and because you do not know me, you are incapable of determining what I care about.
I have submitted Scripture ... your " [Arminianism] " projection is just more of your presumption.
.
It is also correct that as concerning salvation, God is deserving of all glory and honor.
Let's read Romans 1 again, Evmur, starting at vs 18:
This section of Scripture tells us exactly what occurs in those who do not believe. It's not that they can't believe. It's that the unbeliever rejects the truth when that which may be known of God is revealed to him or her and the believer does not reject.
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:18-19 tells us that the truth is suppressed when God makes it plain to them. The word "hold" in vs 18 is the Greek word katechō and it means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When truth is revealed, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.
that which may be known of God is manifest in them ...
Romans 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Because they suppress the truth, they do not glorify God, their thinking becomes empty and foolish and, as a result, their foolish hearts become darkened.
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Because the heart is darkened, they profess themselves as wise but in reality they become fools and turn to idolatry.
Romans 1:
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Because of their idolatry, they stray further from God ... they change the truth into a lie and worship creation more than the Creator, Who is blessed forever ... and God does not prevent them.
Rom 1: 26 — because of this, God gives them over to vile affections.
Rom 1: 27 — because they are given over to vile affections, they commit shameful acts and receive in themselves the adequate penalty for their error.
Rom 1: 28 — because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind.
Because they have a reprobate mind, they exhibit all of the behaviors shown in Rom 1:29-32.
Look at how long God holds on to a person before he or she is given over to a reprobate mind. First it's suppress the truth; then the foolish heart becomes darkened; then given up to uncleanness; then given up to vile affections; then reprobate mind. Each time the person is given up to the next downward step, it is because he or she has rejected God.
These are the steps that are taken over the course of many years. God holds on as long as He can, but at some point, as they move further and further away from Him, God lets them go.
It's not like they suppress the truth in unrighteousness one moment and the next moment they have a reprobate mind. There are more than several steps involved in the downward spiral to reprobate mind. And in the Greek the word reprobate means not standing the test; not approved.
And at any point, a person can allow the truth of God's Word to penetrate their heart and God will start working to bring increase to that little kernel of truth they do not restrain. God brings the increase in the heart of those who do not reject Him.
read the Word of God again, Evmur:
Romans 1:
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
In Rom 1:19, we see that nothing was withheld and what it is that men restrain ... that which may be known of God ... for God showed it to them. God reveals Himself, His truth, and that truth, that revelation is suppressed and restrained. So it is the individual who restrains.
In vs 20, God's eternal power and Godhead is suppressed, restrained, rejected and that is why the ones who reject are without excuse.
Under your scenario, mankind has an excuse because ... according to Evmur ... reneweddaybyday failed ???
It is not God Who withholds ... nor is it the fault of reneweddaybyday, notwithstanding your accusation to the contrary.
a completely presumptuous statement, Evmur. You do not know me ... and because you do not know me, you are incapable of determining what I care about.
I have submitted Scripture ... your " [Arminianism] " projection is just more of your presumption.
.
... brightfame52 ... here is the discussion:
In Post 4052, I responded to your question "When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ? " and your statement that you "believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly":
"what Scripture says ... God imputes righteousness when a person believes:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Your problem is that you believe faith = works ... and Scripture specifically tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Again, it is God Who justifies ... when God is the Object of faith, God justifies a person.
if a person places his or her faith in gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... righteousness is not imputed because gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... cannot impute righteousness to anyone.
Only God can impute righteousness to a person ..."
and instead of considering what is stated in Scripture, you respond with your same ole, same ole "More unbelief" accusation.
you do know who is the accuser of the brethren, yes ???
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
... brightfame52 ... here is the discussion:
In Post 4052, I responded to your question "When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ? " and your statement that you "believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly":
"what Scripture says ... God imputes righteousness when a person believes:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Your problem is that you believe faith = works ... and Scripture specifically tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Again, it is God Who justifies ... when God is the Object of faith, God justifies a person.
if a person places his or her faith in gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... righteousness is not imputed because gaia ... or any other false god or goddess ... cannot impute righteousness to anyone.
Only God can impute righteousness to a person ..."
and instead of considering what is stated in Scripture, you respond with your same ole, same ole "More unbelief" accusation.
you do know who is the accuser of the brethren, yes ???
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
nope ... I provided Scriptural support (Post 4052) which answered your question "When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ?" ... and which rendered your belief that one is justified "before faith and while ungodly" is error.
your two replies of "More unbelief" are indicative of the fact that you have no support for your claim and, therefore, God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... just as Scripture tells us ...
You can suppress the truth in unrighteousness if you so choose, but you will have no excuse when you stand before God.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
.
your two replies of "More unbelief" are indicative of the fact that you have no support for your claim and, therefore, God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... just as Scripture tells us ...
You can suppress the truth in unrighteousness if you so choose, but you will have no excuse when you stand before God.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
.
You do not understand the pride this doctrine engenders.
When you open with "God is not to blame" when you say "it is not the fault of reneweddaybyday" in connection with human souls. You are saying "I was smart enough, I was moral enough to decide for Christ, if others do not choose as I have done it is their own fault. They have made their bed now they must lie in it"
This is what the Arminian doctrine of human freewill engenders ... you think you are better than others who did not "choose" as you have done.
That is exactly what sinners perceive about Christians, they think Christians believe they are better than themselves and they believe it is hypocrisy.
When you open with "God is not to blame" when you say "it is not the fault of reneweddaybyday" in connection with human souls. You are saying "I was smart enough, I was moral enough to decide for Christ, if others do not choose as I have done it is their own fault. They have made their bed now they must lie in it"
This is what the Arminian doctrine of human freewill engenders ... you think you are better than others who did not "choose" as you have done.
That is exactly what sinners perceive about Christians, they think Christians believe they are better than themselves and they believe it is hypocrisy.
hahahahahahaha!!! Scripture makes manifest my unbelief in the "Truth [you] explained" ??? You so silly!!!
Since the "Truth [you] explained" conflicts with Scripture, it is wholly apparent your "Truth" does not align with Scripture. And instead of letting go of your error, you suppress the Truth of Scripture in unrighteousness.
Your question "When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ?" ... is answered in Scripture:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
The post in which you stated you "believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly" included no Scriptural support for your claim and you have provided no Scriptural support.
... and your claim concerning "Truth [you] explained" speaks volumes. The only Truth is the Truth of God's Word ... just as the Author wrote it. Your propensity of ripping verses from the context within which the Author has placed them reveals you are more concerned with the "Truth [you] explained" than the Truth as revealed in Scripture.
Your "Truth [you] explained" was rendered false when the light of Scripture exposed your error (Post 4052):
Proverbs 4:23-27 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
.
Since the "Truth [you] explained" conflicts with Scripture, it is wholly apparent your "Truth" does not align with Scripture. And instead of letting go of your error, you suppress the Truth of Scripture in unrighteousness.
Your question "When does God reckon one to be Justified before Him and on what basis ?" ... is answered in Scripture:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
The post in which you stated you "believe the scripture teach that its before faith and while ungodly" included no Scriptural support for your claim and you have provided no Scriptural support.
... and your claim concerning "Truth [you] explained" speaks volumes. The only Truth is the Truth of God's Word ... just as the Author wrote it. Your propensity of ripping verses from the context within which the Author has placed them reveals you are more concerned with the "Truth [you] explained" than the Truth as revealed in Scripture.
Your "Truth [you] explained" was rendered false when the light of Scripture exposed your error (Post 4052):
Proverbs 4:23-27 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
.
I submitted Scripture in Post 4082 and in Post 4076 ... is it your claim now that Scripture "engenders" pride ???
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
... wow. In Post 4077, you said:
So I'm to blame for "billions of souls being in hell" AND I'm full of pride??? ... whatever Evmur.
I notice you skipped over the second sentence in my reply to you:
So, how about you go and re-read Romans 1:18-32 and learn what God tells you there:
vs 18 – God reveals Himself to a person and he or she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. That person is without excuse ... not because of anything reneweddaybyday did or did not do ... not because God "is to blame for billions of souls being in hell" ... that person is without excuse because he or she suppressed the truth in unrighteousness ... he or she rejected God and God allows him or her to do that.
check out Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 ... read about the behaviors that precede God giving them up. It's due to the behavior of the person who continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. God doesn't withhold from the person ... the person rejects the truth.
And God still remains sovereign over all. God can choose to show mercy on those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness and God can give over those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
I posted Scripture ... you call what is written in Romans 1 "Arminian doctrine of human freewill"???
I disagree with your assessment that Romans 1 is "Arminian doctrine of human freewill".
... I think you think I think I am better than others ... but you are incorrect in your thinking.
If a "christian" believes he or she is better than anyone else, maybe that "christian" is not a born again believer ... you do know there are some folks who call themselves "christian" but they do not have Christ in ... iow, they are not born again ... you do know this, yes???
If a sinner believes I think I am better than anyone else, that sinner does not know me. Scripture warns us about being prideful ... Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God – 1 Peter 5:5-6 ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall — 1 Cor 10:12 ...
.
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
... wow. In Post 4077, you said:
So I'm to blame for "billions of souls being in hell" AND I'm full of pride??? ... whatever Evmur.
I notice you skipped over the second sentence in my reply to you:
So, how about you go and re-read Romans 1:18-32 and learn what God tells you there:
vs 18 – God reveals Himself to a person and he or she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. That person is without excuse ... not because of anything reneweddaybyday did or did not do ... not because God "is to blame for billions of souls being in hell" ... that person is without excuse because he or she suppressed the truth in unrighteousness ... he or she rejected God and God allows him or her to do that.
check out Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 ... read about the behaviors that precede God giving them up. It's due to the behavior of the person who continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. God doesn't withhold from the person ... the person rejects the truth.
And God still remains sovereign over all. God can choose to show mercy on those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness and God can give over those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
I posted Scripture ... you call what is written in Romans 1 "Arminian doctrine of human freewill"???
I disagree with your assessment that Romans 1 is "Arminian doctrine of human freewill".
... I think you think I think I am better than others ... but you are incorrect in your thinking.If a "christian" believes he or she is better than anyone else, maybe that "christian" is not a born again believer ... you do know there are some folks who call themselves "christian" but they do not have Christ in ... iow, they are not born again ... you do know this, yes???
If a sinner believes I think I am better than anyone else, that sinner does not know me. Scripture warns us about being prideful ... Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God – 1 Peter 5:5-6 ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall — 1 Cor 10:12 ...
.
I submitted Scripture in Post 4082 and in Post 4076 ... is it your claim now that Scripture "engenders" pride ???
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
... wow. In Post 4077, you said:
So I'm to blame for "billions of souls being in hell" AND I'm full of pride??? ... whatever Evmur.
I notice you skipped over the second sentence in my reply to you:
So, how about you go and re-read Romans 1:18-32 and learn what God tells you there:
vs 18 – God reveals Himself to a person and he or she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. That person is without excuse ... not because of anything reneweddaybyday did or did not do ... not because God "is to blame for billions of souls being in hell" ... that person is without excuse because he or she suppressed the truth in unrighteousness ... he or she rejected God and God allows him or her to do that.
check out Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 ... read about the behaviors that precede God giving them up. It's due to the behavior of the person who continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. God doesn't withhold from the person ... the person rejects the truth.
And God still remains sovereign over all. God can choose to show mercy on those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness and God can give over those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
I posted Scripture ... you call what is written in Romans 1 "Arminian doctrine of human freewill"???
I disagree with your assessment that Romans 1 is "Arminian doctrine of human freewill".
... I think you think I think I am better than others ... but you are incorrect in your thinking.
If a "christian" believes he or she is better than anyone else, maybe that "christian" is not a born again believer ... you do know there are some folks who call themselves "christian" but they do not have Christ in ... iow, they are not born again ... you do know this, yes???
If a sinner believes I think I am better than anyone else, that sinner does not know me. Scripture warns us about being prideful ... Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God – 1 Peter 5:5-6 ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall — 1 Cor 10:12 ...
.
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
... wow. In Post 4077, you said:
So I'm to blame for "billions of souls being in hell" AND I'm full of pride??? ... whatever Evmur.
I notice you skipped over the second sentence in my reply to you:
So, how about you go and re-read Romans 1:18-32 and learn what God tells you there:
vs 18 – God reveals Himself to a person and he or she suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. That person is without excuse ... not because of anything reneweddaybyday did or did not do ... not because God "is to blame for billions of souls being in hell" ... that person is without excuse because he or she suppressed the truth in unrighteousness ... he or she rejected God and God allows him or her to do that.
check out Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 ... read about the behaviors that precede God giving them up. It's due to the behavior of the person who continues to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. God doesn't withhold from the person ... the person rejects the truth.
And God still remains sovereign over all. God can choose to show mercy on those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness and God can give over those who do suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
I posted Scripture ... you call what is written in Romans 1 "Arminian doctrine of human freewill"???
I disagree with your assessment that Romans 1 is "Arminian doctrine of human freewill".
... I think you think I think I am better than others ... but you are incorrect in your thinking.If a "christian" believes he or she is better than anyone else, maybe that "christian" is not a born again believer ... you do know there are some folks who call themselves "christian" but they do not have Christ in ... iow, they are not born again ... you do know this, yes???
If a sinner believes I think I am better than anyone else, that sinner does not know me. Scripture warns us about being prideful ... Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God – 1 Peter 5:5-6 ... Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall — 1 Cor 10:12 ...
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But nature itself is not a sufficient witness to the saving of mankind. Nobody will be saved because they gazed at the stars.
I am not accusing reneweddaybyday, I AM accusing human flesh and the mind of the flesh which is awful. THAT IS WHY it needs to be reneweddaybyday. In fact it needs to be put to death.
The reason the sinner does not know you is because you keep telling him you have been saved by your faith, you accuse him of remaining in sin because when he looks inside himself he knows he does not have this faith.
He is more honest than you.
YOU didn't believe the gospel, getaway. You tryin to tell me that you believed Jesus was raised from the dead after being nailed to a tree till every drop of blood ran to the ground? Peter didn't believe it even when he was told, but you did. You tryin to tell me you believed God took all your sins that you had committed and put them on His innocent Son 2, 000 years ago?
This is impossible to believe.
You came to believe these things AFTER God miraculously saved you, while you were yet dead in your sins and trespasses God in sheer mercy and grace He breathed into you NEW LIFE, your spirit came ALIVE, you were born again.
THAT'S when you believed, that's when you received faith to believe. When you tell people to believe you are asking the impossible of them. Paul didn't believe, he heard Stephen preaching with his face lit up like an angel, he saw the mighty miracles Stephen did or God did by his hands. It just made Paul crazy with rage. He had no faith. Not until God knocked him off that high horse.
Just admit it YOU have been saved by grace alone through faith and that was not of yourself ... stop boasting of your faith. Boast about God's grace.
... you do not know me ... otherwise you would not say I think I am better than anyone ... nor would you say that I keep telling anyone I have been saved by my faith ... because I have never said that.Let me refresh your memory, Evmur ... here is what I told you back in Post 3998:
here is what I told you in Post 4076:
here is what I told you in Post 4082:
in Whom do you place your faith, Evmur? Do you place your faith in the Author of Scripture ... the One who wrote:
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Please note the verse does not state [as you claim] the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one to whom God gives faith in order that he may believe ...
that's what you want the verse to say ... and the verse does not say what you want.
what is written in Scripture:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation you believed
after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again)
the one who boasts is the one who claims that God gives to him or her something that He withholds from others ... that he or she has received NEW LIFE in order to believe ... but God withholds that NEW LIFE from others so they are unable to believe ... yet tells them they must believe.
I maintain that God has freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided to all mankind all that is needed and the person who rejects what God has so freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided will find himself or herself cast into the lake of fire ... not because God withheld anything, but because he or she rejected God's gift.
There is only One way ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... no man can come to the Father but through Him.
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
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... you do not know me ... otherwise you would not say I think I am better than anyone ... nor would you say that I keep telling anyone I have been saved by my faith ... because I have never said that.Let me refresh your memory, Evmur ... here is what I told you back in Post 3998:
here is what I told you in Post 4076:
here is what I told you in Post 4082:
in Whom do you place your faith, Evmur? Do you place your faith in the Author of Scripture ... the One who wrote:
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Please note the verse does not state [as you claim] the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one to whom God gives faith in order that he may believe ...
that's what you want the verse to say ... and the verse does not say what you want.
what is written in Scripture:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation you believed
after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again)
the one who boasts is the one who claims that God gives to him or her something that He withholds from others ... that he or she has received NEW LIFE in order to believe ... but God withholds that NEW LIFE from others so they are unable to believe ... yet tells them they must believe.
I maintain that God has freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided to all mankind all that is needed and the person who rejects what God has so freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided will find himself or herself cast into the lake of fire ... not because God withheld anything, but because he or she rejected God's gift.
There is only One way ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... no man can come to the Father but through Him.
Romans 1:18-20 specifically states that God reveals Himself and it is the person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, which is why it is the person who is without excuse:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō = suppress, restrain] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Note in vs 18 that it is the person to whom God reveals truth who suppresses or restrains the truth.
The verse does not state that God withholds anything from the person.
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All descendants of Adam have faith it all depends on what or whom we place our faith. That's what you believe, that's what we are debating.
I totally reject that premise. I say when Adam partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he turned his back 180 degrees away from God and away from faith. When he heard the sound of God in the garden he fled and hid ... there's no faith.
Faith is opposite to knowledge
When you sit upon a solidly built chair sure that it will not collapse under you that is knowledge, not faith. The reason mankind lives by laws and covenants and agreements is because he does not have faith. He CERTAINLY does not have faith in God. He fled from God and hid. We still doing it bro, men still flee from God and hide behind all manner of religion, philosophy and self righteousness.
Faith is a virtue and and a gift from God it must be first revealed and then received.
Now you see your 2nd point for you have said YOU CHOSE to place your faith in God.
You are saying you had some moral virtue or wisdom that enabled you to do that which the person next to you who heard the same gospel but who turned away did not have ....You don't MEAN to say you are better but in essence that is exactly what you did say.
I don't blame YOU for you would need to be superhuman [are you superhuman?] not to fall into that. I am blaming the doctrine, the theology that is taught in the Arminian gospel.
I say God subdued you, conquered you [with love] He over rid your "freewill" and imparted life and faith to you while you were yet in your rebellion ... He's God He can do that.
My gospel does not need to wheedle, I don't make heart wrenching appeals either to men's feelings or to his intellect. I simply tell a man the good news and believe God to send the Holy Ghost down from heaven to accomplish the work.
@Evmur
Faith as it relates to Salvation its a fruit of the Spirit of Sanctification 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Faith as it relates to Salvation its a fruit of the Spirit of Sanctification 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Can a person turn away from his or her intellect? No. A person can be intellectually ignorant ... but that person still has intellect. Everyone is born with intellect ... the faculty of reasoning [the action of thinking about something in a logical way] and understanding objectively [in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions].
The same holds true with faith ... faith is inherent within each and every descendant of Adam. Faith extends beyond what we learn from our intellect and senses. Faith does not contradict reason, though it may go beyond reason. Faith is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1).
A person can be weak in faith because he or she is ignorant of truth. Whether that ignorance is due to not having heard ... or after having heard, not adhering to faith ... the result is the same. God does not strengthen that person's faith ... the person remains weak in faith.
On the other hand, a person can become strong in faith because when he or she hears truth, he or she believes what is true, and God then increases his or her faith. And when God increases, the person does not receive more and more faith. God strengthens the faith the person has ...
... and fyi, Adam did not turn "his back 180 degrees away from God and away from faith" ... Adam said he hid himself, that he was afraid because he was naked (Gen 3:10).
When Adam and Eve had children, who taught their children? Who taught Abel and Cain?
Did Adam and Eve teach Abel but not Cain?
What God told Cain: If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted (Gen 4:7) ? since we know God does not lie, then we also know that Cain didn't do well, even though he could have if he had turned in faith to God. However, Cain rejected the truth, turned his back on God, and received the consequence of turning from God.
God tells us By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain (Heb 11:4). Since we know faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God (Rom 10:17), then in order for Abel to offer by faith, he had to have heard the Word of God.
Adam and Eve taught their children ... Abel believed and brought his offering by faith. Cain did not believe and he did not bring his offering by faith. Cain rejected the truth he heard and went his own way ...
Even in Cain's rebellion, God showed His mercy on Cain by placing a mark on him (Gen 4:15).
is that your gospel? ... where is chapter and verse for that claim?
I believe what Scripture says ... that it is the gospel which "must first be revealed and then received" by faith.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ...
nope ... I said all have faith and we either believe the truth or we suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness
The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, hinder.
It is not God Who suppresses the truth ... it is the person who suppresses the truth.
I maintain that God has freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided to all mankind all that is needed and the person who rejects what God has so freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided will find himself or herself cast into the lake of fire ... not because God withheld anything, but because he or she rejected God's gift.
There is only One way ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... no man can come to the Father but through Him.
you have "freewill" to believe that. I disagree ...
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ]is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The verse does not state [as you claim] that God gives faith in order that a person may believe ...
that's what you want the verse to say ... and the verse does not say what you want.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 20 – the reason they are without excuse is because God has provided all that is necessary for them to believe the gospel ... which is the power of God unto salvation ... but instead of believing the gospel, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
They do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness because God does not "impart life and faith to [them] while [they] were yet in [their] rebellion".
They suppress the truth in unrighteousness in spite of God having provided all that is necessary for them to believe the gospel.
what is your gospel?
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The same holds true with faith ... faith is inherent within each and every descendant of Adam. Faith extends beyond what we learn from our intellect and senses. Faith does not contradict reason, though it may go beyond reason. Faith is the foundation of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1).
A person can be weak in faith because he or she is ignorant of truth. Whether that ignorance is due to not having heard ... or after having heard, not adhering to faith ... the result is the same. God does not strengthen that person's faith ... the person remains weak in faith.
On the other hand, a person can become strong in faith because when he or she hears truth, he or she believes what is true, and God then increases his or her faith. And when God increases, the person does not receive more and more faith. God strengthens the faith the person has ...
... and fyi, Adam did not turn "his back 180 degrees away from God and away from faith" ... Adam said he hid himself, that he was afraid because he was naked (Gen 3:10).
When Adam and Eve had children, who taught their children? Who taught Abel and Cain?
Did Adam and Eve teach Abel but not Cain?
What God told Cain: If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted (Gen 4:7) ? since we know God does not lie, then we also know that Cain didn't do well, even though he could have if he had turned in faith to God. However, Cain rejected the truth, turned his back on God, and received the consequence of turning from God.
God tells us By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain (Heb 11:4). Since we know faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God (Rom 10:17), then in order for Abel to offer by faith, he had to have heard the Word of God.
Adam and Eve taught their children ... Abel believed and brought his offering by faith. Cain did not believe and he did not bring his offering by faith. Cain rejected the truth he heard and went his own way ...
Even in Cain's rebellion, God showed His mercy on Cain by placing a mark on him (Gen 4:15).
is that your gospel? ... where is chapter and verse for that claim?
I believe what Scripture says ... that it is the gospel which "must first be revealed and then received" by faith.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ...
nope ... I said all have faith and we either believe the truth or we suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness
The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, hinder.
It is not God Who suppresses the truth ... it is the person who suppresses the truth.
I maintain that God has freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided to all mankind all that is needed and the person who rejects what God has so freely, graciously, lovingly, mercifully provided will find himself or herself cast into the lake of fire ... not because God withheld anything, but because he or she rejected God's gift.
There is only One way ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... no man can come to the Father but through Him.
you have "freewill" to believe that. I disagree ...
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the gospel of Christ]is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The verse does not state [as you claim] that God gives faith in order that a person may believe ...
that's what you want the verse to say ... and the verse does not say what you want.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
vs 20 – the reason they are without excuse is because God has provided all that is necessary for them to believe the gospel ... which is the power of God unto salvation ... but instead of believing the gospel, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
They do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness because God does not "impart life and faith to [them] while [they] were yet in [their] rebellion".
They suppress the truth in unrighteousness in spite of God having provided all that is necessary for them to believe the gospel.
what is your gospel?
.
Raised again for our Justification !2
Lets look at this some more. See Christ as the Surety Head Representative of the Elect or His Church/Sheep in their room and or stead, He was actually and indeed Justified from all the sins of theirs that was charged/imputed to Him. He was judicially exonerated in the court of Gods law and justice as their Head and Surety Representative, and Victoriously seated at the Right Hand of God for them Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Now Christ's Justification from the Sins of those He represented, His Spiritual Seed, was their actual Justification also. Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 24
Lets look at this some more. See Christ as the Surety Head Representative of the Elect or His Church/Sheep in their room and or stead, He was actually and indeed Justified from all the sins of theirs that was charged/imputed to Him. He was judicially exonerated in the court of Gods law and justice as their Head and Surety Representative, and Victoriously seated at the Right Hand of God for them Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Now Christ's Justification from the Sins of those He represented, His Spiritual Seed, was their actual Justification also. Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 24